1908 $20 no motto ms 69 Great Collections
Joey29
Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
Astounding $192,000 price reached for this 1908 no motto from the Wells Fargo hoard, one of 10! pieces graded ms 69 by pcgs. 
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Huge money for a nearly perfect $20 gold coin. You have to ask how it escaped getting marks at the mint and afterwards.
Beautiful gold coin....Well preserved.... What is the detail on the Wells Fargo attribution? Cheers, RickO
The interesting question is how did 10 survive in such perfect condition to earn a ms 69 rating for such a large gold coin.
A bag of double eagles in their vault that was bought by a dealer in the 80s or 90s as I recall.
That was a hoard that was well known with many of various high grades frequently still appearing at auction, etc.
PCGS CoinFacts even list the pedigreed hoard coins as a separate variety under the 1908 No Motto main page.
That coin brought about twice as much as what any of the MS-69's from the hoard previously sold for, including the previous record of $96,000 in January 2020 for the exact same example.
Kind of interesting that CAC shows none in 68 or 69 yet, even with the large populations noted below.
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1908-20-no-motto-wells-fargo/99142
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Here is the story on them from the main PCGS CoinFacts page:
"David Hall:
The 1908 No Motto is one of the most common dates in the St. Gaudens series. In fact, there was a time in the 1980's when dealers would post sight-unseen bids for Saints they would post their bids and say "no 1908 No Mottos" or they would post a bid for all Saints except the 1908NM and then post a little bit lower bid for 1908 No Mottos. I believe this was because most 1908 No Mottos look pretty ratty and the dealers' customers probably didn't like them.
In contrast to the usual "ratty" look of the 1908 No Motto Saints, in the early 1990s, dealer Ron Gillio found a hoard of 9900 absolutely incredible 1908 No Mottos. The hoard was dubbed "Wells Fargo Discovery" because the initial transactions involving these coins took place in a Las Vegas Wells Fargo bank. The hoard contained thousands of superb Gems graded MS66 by PCGS, nearly 1000 coins graded MS67 by PCGS, 101 coins graded MS68 by PCGS, and 10 virtually perfect gems graded MS69 by PCGS, the only Saints ever graded MS69 by PCGS (as of 2009). It was the largest hoard of ultra high quality $20 St. Gaudens ever discovered.
When we were grading the Wells Fargo $20 Saints at PCGS, we had seperated the 10 coins that we felt were graded MS69. All ten were virtually perfect gems...the most amazingly perfect Saints we had ever seen. We tried real hard to find one of the ten that we could call MS70. We even narrowed it down to the "best three," but we just couldn't find the one truly perfect coin, though we found ten that were very close and three that were really, really close. Just an absolutely amazing hoard of $20 Saints and the ten MS69s were truly off the charts!"
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Could you imagine if this got a gold CAC sticker? I would then believe in unicorns, leprechauns with a pot of gold, geese that lay golden eggs...
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
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I'd rather have a MS67 and a big stack of money equal to the difference in value between the two grades.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Wow!!!
Doesn't GC usually send big coins like this to CAC? I wonder why it doesn't sport a green bean.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
How do we know it hasn't been messed with?
Does it have original skin?
What can we do?
I'm afraid of that coin
My Saint Set
Why would you be afraid of a coin that you claim to be an expert on, saints that is. Maybe you need CAC on this one.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Excellent!
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What I really need is for CAC to start certifying genuine Lucas replacement parts for my Norton. (damn British bikes)
I would pay extra for that
My Saint Set
It’s a beautiful gold coin. It’s too bad it will never get the recognition it deserves since it is not stickered. So many will treat it as if it is tainted or doesn’t exist.
It seems to have gotten the recognition it deserves considering it went for double last years price for the exact same coin.
Maybe it needed a green bean so more people would have hated it and kept its price from inflating so much.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I prefer my coin and the 188k difference in cash but that's just me................... to each his or her own.
“Bag marks and $190,000 cash back.”
I dont see how that coin graded ms69
Latin American Collection
How do you think it should have graded and why?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Bag marks on a 69 seem inconsistent with the grade. Lovely coin but more of a choice 67 than a 69 in my view. Boilers coin looks nicer.
Latin American Collection
According to Gillio, quoted in Bowers' guide to double eagles, The coins were in bags of 500, all sealed since the early 1960s when they were re bagged just the one time to replace the decaying original bags they had been in since 1917. Apparently they were part of some international payment around WWI. They had stayed in 1 place, never moved and never recounted minimizing contact marks. Doesn't say where they were originally, just that they were stored temporarily at a WF bank in Nev, giving its name to the group. There were at least 6000 graded MS66! (see above).
The one on the bridge of her nose is a turn-off for me regardless of the grade.
Type 2 saints aren't my thing but the type 2.5 isn't bad (long ray/blind eagle 08-NM)
My Saint Set
Me too! I am happy with my MS66 from the same hoard.
I remember reading in several places that the 1908NM Saints from the Wells Fargo hoard had a reputation of receiving very generous grades and that many sent their coins back for reholdering with instructions to leave "WELLS FARGO" off the label.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Huge price.
Registry inflation.
What do you think would happen if these coins were broken out of their holders and submitted raw. How many would still grade ms 69? Also if submitted to CAC how many would sticker. Would be interested to know
The wells fargo coin IMO would not reholder in 69 if submitted raw,
I like boilers coin , probably a 67 even a plus.
and I agree, give me boilers coin and the cash diff anyday.
IMO, I think this whole registry nonsense is stupid, Nice coins are nice coins, and just about every one would like to have a nice coin, but I prefer quality over numbers on a holder anytime, even if a grade or two less.
Very nice indeed. I follow the same philosophy and went even lower because mine's an MS 63 in OGH snagged for $2150.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I like the 'Wells Fargo' label on my MS 66 as an assurance of originality. Well satisfied with it as a type example along with the six plus figures of change!