Cheerios Coin

famiglietti49

Does anyone know if the 1999 Pattern on a Sacagawea Dollar is strictly limited to 5500 coins that were in a Cheerios box?
I have a bid on a coin which the seller claims comes from an original (still enclosed) pamphlet dated Nov 1999. This pamphlet tells the story of Sacagawea. Would this coin (If i bought it and submitted it to PCGS) be graded as a cheerios even though it isn't enclosed in an original cheerios packaging? If not, would i be better off removing the coin from the packaging before submitting it?

MWallace

Is the coin in the first picture the same coin that is in the second picture?
The packaging the Cheerios Dollar came in is like this one:

gumby1234

The close up shows a Cheerios dollar but is that the dollar in that you will get. Be wary and make sure there is a return policy. If it is a Cheerios dollar I would think any TPG would certify it as such no matter where you got it from. Its a name given to the enhanced tail feather designed reverse. Good Luck

Steven59

I thought Cheerios Dollars had "Enhanced" tail feathers - so it wouldn't necessarily have to be in original packaging - Eh? Or am I totally wrong on this?

MsMorrisine

https://www.pcgs.com/news/mint-offers-two-new-first-day-commemorative-covers

CoinCoins

there are 3 of those on ebay right now and they're pretty cheap. the 'first day struck' thing is intriguing, but the odds of them being cheerios dollars seems unlikely.

MsMorrisine

I would be quit skeptical

They are known as Cheerios dollars and I’ve not heard of them also coming from a first day cover.

Get a photo of the tail feathers with the “struck on first … “

Then get a close shot of the date

joeykoins

By the OP's original pics. To me, my opinion. Looks to be a winner! Just a guess, now. Don't take my guess to be gospel, please.

To answer your question, you can remove the coin from the packaging.

MsMorrisine

The question is not “is the first pic a Cheerios dollar”

It’s if that’s what will be sent.

braddick

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373717579324?hash=item57034db63c:g:y54AAOSwtjhhPpgA

braddick

What is a bit odd and troublesome is the seller makes a claim not knowing much about coins yet has the wherewithal to post a close-up of the reverse of this Sac. He would need to know what the tells are for such a variety. I somehow don't trust the coin in the photo is the coin received somehow. I could be wrong though- it just seems. bit off.

CaptHenway

I have looked at a few of those "First Day of Mintage" covers over the years, and they all had normal dollars in them.

Here is a writeup about the pattern coins struck BEFORE the so-called "First Day of Mintage."

http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20c.html

Is it possible that one of the pattern reverse dies still perfectly usable after the piece that I saw in October was struck, and after the coins sent to General Mills were struck (whenever that was), was used again in November for the so-called "First Day of Mintage" ceremony? Yes, but since the reverses are clearly visible in the covers, I would be quite surprised if there were others of these out there and they had not been seen before.

FWIW, the obverse shown in the eBay listing DOES NOT have the die marker below the date that I discovered on the Cheerios dollar, So, I am fairly confident in saying that this is NOT a Cheerios dollar. However, I cannot rule out the remote possibility that it is a previously unsuspected (and highly unlikely in my opinion) strike from a normal obverse and a pattern reverse.

TD

AlexinPA

@braddick said:
What is a bit odd and troublesome is the seller makes a claim not knowing much about coins yet has the wherewithal to post a close-up of the reverse of this Sac. He would need to know what the tells are for such a variety. I somehow don't trust the coin in the photo is the coin received somehow. I could be wrong though- it just seems. bit off.

There seems to be a lot of this "I'm new and don't know" business going around lately. Taken from a discussion ATS:

"Hi, I’m new to coin collecting and inherited this gem from my late aunt. It’s hasn’t been in circulation the past 50 years or longer. It has a obverse error."
But not new enough to recognize an ‘error’?
"Again, I’m new! I’m not sure where to post, just looking for information."
But you sure found this forum, eh Poncho?
"I also looked at the VAM’s and didn’t see the error listed. New and knows all about VAMs??? I wanted to have it graded by NGC as they’re one of the best add laugh"
I was Blocked by this user

MFeld

If your bid is more than a few dollars, I’d suggest seeing if you can withdraw it. I think the chances of the coin being a Cheerios dollar are approximately 0%.

ricko

As we know, pictures can be deceptive (purposely or not).... I would not bid on this one....Cheers, RickO

JBK

The seller has already misled you by saying it is in a pamphlet. It is in an FDC.

BStrauss3

Where is gets confusing is that

• Not all dollar coins in the Cheerios packaging are the reverse of 1999. 5,500 of 10,000 is the usual count.
• Not all dollar coins with the reverse of 1999 are Cheerios dollars.

Finally, once you remove the dollar from the packaging, the best the TPG will do is certify it as the reverse of 1999.

Regular 2000-P: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1/9584
Cheerios https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/411990

but also https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar-fs-902/147231

MWallace

@BStrauss3 said:

• Not all dollar coins in the Cheerios packaging are the reverse of 1999. 5,500 of 10,000 is the usual count.
• Not all dollar coins with the reverse of 1999 are Cheerios dollars.

What???

CoinCoins

yeah. what a weird coin.

that ms68 is worth around $30k i think

mark_dak

@MFeld said:
If your bid is more than a few dollars, I’d suggest seeing if you can withdraw it. I think the chances of the coin being a Cheerios dollar are approximately 0%.

Am I wrong in thinking PCGS only attributes those sent IN original packaging? I know of one instance where the coin was broken out prior to submitting and that person ran into a major headache. I was told this was one of the exceptions for submitting.

Mark

CaptHenway

@BStrauss3 said:
Where is gets confusing is that

• Not all dollar coins in the Cheerios packaging are the reverse of 1999. 5,500 of 10,000 is the usual count.
• Not all dollar coins with the reverse of 1999 are Cheerios dollars.

Finally, once you remove the dollar from the packaging, the best the TPG will do is certify it as the reverse of 1999.

Regular 2000-P: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1/9584
Cheerios https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/411990

but also https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar-fs-902/147231

There were 5,500 coins distributed along with a cent inside Cheerios packages. Not all of the 5,500 coins had the pattern reverse. I would estimate that 80% of the 5,500 coins had the pattern reverse, but this is just an educated guess.

TO DATE, every coin seen with the pattern reverse is a Cheerios dollar, EXCEPT for the one piece I got to study in Chicago on October 20, 1999. It, and the other pieces in the room that day (there were several) obviously did not come out of a Cheerios box, What obverse die it was struck from, I do not know. What became of those coins, I do not know.

TD

MFeld

@mark_dak said:

@MFeld said:
If your bid is more than a few dollars, I’d suggest seeing if you can withdraw it. I think the chances of the coin being a Cheerios dollar are approximately 0%.

Am I wrong in thinking PCGS only attributes those sent IN original packaging? I know of one instance where the coin was broken out prior to submitting and that person ran into a major headache. I was told this was one of the exceptions for submitting.

Mark

I believe that as long as the coin has the correct reverse, it need not be in the original packaging.

jdimmick

Not saying this one isnt, but I have looked at several of those first day covers and they have all been regular sac dollars

MFeld

@CoinCoins said:
yeah. what a weird coin.

that ms68 is worth around $30k i think

The last sale I know of was for $12,000 earlier this year.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@CoinCoins said:
yeah. what a weird coin.

that ms68 is worth around $30k i think

The last sale I know of was for $12,000 earlier this year.

Well, but that's not MY coin. Ownership adds value!

braddick

This one closed at $600. It'll be interesting if it sticks.

famiglietti49

Question, if you found a cheerios dollar in circulation and sent it in would pcgs grade it as a cheerio if it had all the right markers? What if it was sealed in one of the pamphlets from 1999 and it had the correct markers would it be graded as a cheerio even though it was in a different pamphlet instead of the cheerios one?

braddick

I don't think PCGS cares about the providence of a coin if the markers prove the design type or variety.

braddick

::Whelp::
The coin was returned and is now listed again with a BIN of $350.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373759425352?hash=item5705cc3b48:g:NwcAAOSw0wNhUOK~

MsMorrisine

Warningvirusde1 no longer uses Cheerios in the title

https://m.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/warningvirusde1?filter=feedback_page:RECEIVED_AS_SELLER&_trksid=p2047675.l2560

famiglietti49

If it is detailed, I could take a chance for $100. The question is, is it really detailed?

MFeld

It doesn’t matter what the seller calls it. It doesn’t look like a Cheerios example and I don’t know why it would be worth more than $1.

WAYNEAS

I would pass quickly on this coin.
Too many flags with the verbiage and pics.
Wayne

braddick

God sends his silliest jokes to his funniest clowns.

famiglietti49

I guess I will pass then, If MFeld believes it not to be a cheerios, I will take him at his word as he seems to know more
about this than I do. After all with over 6000 posts he surely knows more about coins than I will ever know.

1madman

I will chime in to mention that I was the person who bought the coin from the seller on the eBay auction at $600. Before he shipped it, he messaged me to tell me that he didn’t think it was the enhanced tail feathers variety. I had him send me pictures of the exact item he was gonna send me, and it was a regular sac dollar in a first day of issue holder (exactly like his pictures now show after the first one on the auction). I’m not sure how he has a picture of a cheerios dollar inside a first day of issue holder, but I’m thinking it was cropped in. And I’m not sure why he is using that same deceitful picture on his new auction. Don’t buy this coin on that auction expecting it to be a cheerios dollar.

famiglietti49

He originally told me his mother had worked at the mint and got it there. I was suspicious and asked him to send me a picture of the coin's tail feathers inside of the pamphlet showing the detail on the tail. He never sent the pictures!

CaptHenway

@Steven59 said:
I thought Cheerios Dollars had "Enhanced" tail feathers - so it wouldn't necessarily have to be in original packaging - Eh? Or am I totally wrong on this?

If I might borrow these photographs to illustrate a point, somebody recently pointed out to me an easy way to spot the pattern reverse compared to the regular reverse. Look at the left end of the claw, the "wrist" of the claw shall we say. Just below that there is a curved spike of some sort. Then, just below that, the detailing of the feathers is almost non-existent.

This curved "spike," or more likely the lack of it, should be easy to spot in your typical poor quality eBay photograph.

TD

Kurisu

@CaptHenway said:

@Steven59 said:
I thought Cheerios Dollars had "Enhanced" tail feathers - so it wouldn't necessarily have to be in original packaging - Eh? Or am I totally wrong on this?

If I might borrow these photographs to illustrate a point, somebody recently pointed out to me an easy way to spot the pattern reverse compared to the regular reverse. Look at the left end of the claw, the "wrist" of the claw shall we say. Just below that there is a curved spike of some sort. Then, just below that, the detailing of the feathers is almost non-existent.

This curved "spike," or more likely the lack of it, should be easy to spot in your typical poor quality eBay photograph.

TD

...Guessing it would be slabbed as a "200 P Pattern" or something like that