GTG: Jury says ... ms63
moursund
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Edited: all of the stuff about eBay and returns and whether it was a good price is interesting, but my specific question was about technical grading and the luster break.
The luster break behind the eye made me question whether this was uncirculated. The form experts convincingly agree that it is MS.
Apparently this sort of luster break is a vagary of the metal composition, condition of the die, and the strike?
Thanks everyone!
Am
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Comments
I do not understand why you would buy a coin from a seller that does not accept returns. This is a very common coin that probably has hundreds listed on Ebay.
UNC
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Looks like an MS63 but I'd need to see it in hand.
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It's UNC, that's not wear behind the eye from my interpretation of the pictures.
It is a commercial UNC, I hope it was cheap >$50
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
This was last few minutes of an auction with 0 bids, and would be a good price for what looked like ~MS62+.
I figured if it was horribly not as described, I could return it. Or if it were nice AU, I might keep it, having paid a few dollars too much.
Edited to add: And it looked like a good strike and great luster!
Thanks,
am
$57 including shipping. The ebay pics looked like MS63 or better.
Even if it's a 62, I'm happy enough.
Hey, I learned a new term:
What is the difference between a commercial uncirculated coin and a slider?
Each of these two terms is in the eye of the beholder, but for practical purposes they are the same thing. A commercial uncirculated coin is a coin a dealer believes he can sell as a Brilliant Uncirculated, but he anticipates a third-party grading service would not grade it as high.
It is an Unc., nothing more. It is an extremely common coin that is not worth the cost of slabbing.
You’re fine at that price, with the current market.
And the ‘81S is probably a lot more plentiful in low MS than in AU, so the odds were in your favor.
64, 65. Tough to tell from the pics but thats unc all day.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Thanks! I can afford to make (a few) mistakes with $50 coins, but I want to be sapient in my purchases
eBay policies notwithstanding, if you want the option to return something in the event you don't like it, you should not be buying from people who don't accept returns.
... unless the photos were e.g. doctored, or not of the item that I received.
What if the photos were deliberately focused and lit in order to conceal wear or damage?
I take your point... and I would typically NOT return an item just because I "do not like it".
Edited to add: The one and only item I have ever returned on ebay was from a seller with return policy.
am
No unless. If you want the option to return something, buy from people who offer that option.
You mean if I buy an 1881S and I receive a 1921S, I should keep it? Methinks not...
No. Receiving the wrong item is not the same thing as receiving an item that you don't think looks as nice as the image in the listing, but is still the item pictured.
The reason sellers who do things like doctoring photos while refusing to accept returns exist is because of people using your approach. If nobody ever bought from them, they'd stop listing stuff for sale.
Just sayin'.
I mostly agree with your philosophy, but I find your logic dubious.
Anyway, I'll not plan to use ebay's return policy unless there is a glaring problem, and hopefully never.
Thanks!
am
Heavy chatter in the fields but looks Brilliant Uncirculated (generic term for low to mid grade UNC.).
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Looks 62/63. You did alright but why take the risk.
Suppose he decides the coin is AU, not UNC. File a SNAD claim, get money back. Where's the risk?
relatively inexperienced... seduced by "soon-ending" auction... lured by the chance to get a good deal...
Edited to add: wanted to fill the slot in my danco...
The coin is uncirculated
eBay has made it such that you can return anything for any reason. That doesn't mean you should. Read these responses you wrote. On one hand you're looking at an item with poor photos where you were taking a gamble because you might get a good deal, and on the other, eh, if it's not a winning gamble you'll just return it. If the coin is terribly described--it's been harshly cleaned, there's a gouge hidden by the lighting, it's clearly not the same coin pictured--then fine, return it. But if your whole basis for making a purchase is that either you win or the seller pays for your chance to try and win, don't buy it. Even if there's a return policy--and yes, it's there so you can use it--don't. If you buy something with a good inclination you may return it, you shouldn't be buying it. Return something when there's an unforeseen issue, not simply when you aren't going to get your payday.
Here is what I wrote.
.
Yeah, that sounds a bit lame.
Should have said: I figured if it was horribly not as described, I could return it. Or if it were nice AU, I would keep it, having paid a few dollars too much.
I take your point, and MasonG's.
Thanks,
am
There are many, many almost identical threads here on the forums. We've seen the same pattern a thousand times... Someone relatively new buys something they don't really understand. They post the coin here and ask some random question about it. The person asking the question wonders why the answers come with so much attitude.
Basically, most of us have been burned, sometimes multiple times. We've learned, through the school of hard knocks, that it's universally better to only buy what you REALLY understand. We try to encourage new hobbyists to do the same but it NEVER works. New people buy a few things here and there and eventually they get burned too and frequently they leave the hobby. We all see this as unfortunate and avoidable..... but in many cases inevitable.
Yeah, most people can afford to loose 50 or 100 bucks here and there, but for about the same money, you can buy an already-graded coin, from a reputable dealer that others will want to buy from you someday when you want to divest yourself of it. Until you know the ropes, don't gamble. It isn't worth it.
Nice strike I’ll say MS 62 or 63
Absolutely looks MS. Based on those pictures, should go 63, plus or minus a point
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The attitude in this thread is about ebay and returns, not about the coin. That has been pretty straightforward (question, is this a luster break, making it AU? Answer, no it is UNC)
Besides the solid advice about not using ebay policy to return coins you don't like, there seems to be this sentiment:
However, only buying TPG coins from sellers accepting returns means staying away from low-end stuff, and paying a premium for everything else.
How do we strike the right balance for a new hobbyist?
(Part of the answer is having BST forum here, or trusted LCS where available)
Thanks,
am
the right balance? don't balance yourself into risky behavior.
if you want to buy early on and still have to ask AU/MS, that's risk and prepare to be burned sometimes ... but do it without rage-quitting the hobby. we all have some loser purchases. it's called tuition.
There's no problem buying low end stuff, or bullion, or anything similar. Just don't pay a premium for it without a good reason. If you want an AU coin, buy an AU coin for an AU price. If you want an MS coin, buy an MS coin for an MS price. If you don't know what you're buying, you're gambling.
This statement puzzles me:
"Paying a premium for everything else"
Those who can't tell an AU coin from a BU coin are the ones likely paying a premium almost every time they buy a raw coin.
Knowledge is power. Until you have it, it's smart to use the available help.
But, it's a free country, and people can spend their money any way they want.
Understand what you're doing before you do it.
Don't invest more than you're prepared to lose.
There is no Santa Claus in numismatics. (Lee F. Hewitt)
Pro-tip for new hobbyists- If you're looking for rips, you're probably going to get ripped. FWIW...
Do you suppose it's possible the reason it was at a good price was because of crappy pictures and no returns?
Looks Mint State to me.
Probably...
And in this case, seems like it was a good price.
But I'll try not to be drawn into "good deals" on ebay...
And I'm actively getting better (still having trouble) distinguishing for sure some AU vs MS coins.
am
There's nothing wrong with looking for good deals, as long as you understand what you're doing. If, while holding the coin in your hand, you're asking for help in determining whether it's AU or UNC from people who can only see images of it online, you should probably be careful about what you're buying if it's raw.
63
Mr_Spud
If it's hard to tell AU from MS on Morgan's it will be usually from lack of decent photos. From my view, MOST AU coins show a lack of luster that usually prevails in an Uncirculated coin, even a coin that is badly scratched, chipped or scarred. If it is BU then their should be luster. Unfortunately, most photos of trouble coins prevent being able to see the luster even on true BU coins, thus, causing doubt and confusion and most times causing a low sell price to occur.
Jim
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To be specific, while holding the coin in my hand, I see what looks like luster break behind the eye
In the image, you can see some difference in texture/luster/something there.
What is that?
It does not look like the breaks in frost / bag marks i've seen on other (mostly o-mint?) morgans.
I don't think it looks worn, but i'm getting hung up a bit on whether luster break without high point wear can deem a coin AU.
Thanks,
am
The photos show a coin that is clearly uncirculated and the price you paid was reasonable. (Some wholesale buyers claim to be offering an even higher price.)
A couple of questions.
Do you have it in hand and have you examined it and it is the coin shown? If so, and you like it, then I think it was a good purchase for your purpose.
If it has not arrived yet, did the seller say that the coin in the photos of your original post is the actual coin that will be sent? Some use stock photos and make it a bit hard to notice that fact until you receive a worse coin .
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I don't know.
It’s been cleaned
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Looks MS to me. 62ish.
I think for $57 you did ok. I also think it was wise to come ask the question. Only reason I think people are coming across sharp is they have seen many newer folks go through this learning cycle. However, I think a certain group of us learn by doing, not by listening, and trying to stop them from doing is well intentioned but won't pan out. I'm in that group. I think you are too.
When I started to get back into the hobby 10 years ago I bought inexpensive stuff on ebay, asked about it, and most importantly, submitted stuff. I learned the most by submitting. What the graders look for, etc. Did it cost me some money? Yes, but it was my way of learning. I also started getting some scores to offset my losses. If you start off small, this is a viable way to learn. Plus I'm now much better at interpreting eBay photos than the average collector or dealer.
PS: you are smarter than me starting with Morgans. I jumped straight into hard mode, seated material. 95%+ of the raw stuff is cleaned or damaged.
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This is where it helps to know a series. Wear will be at the high point. A lustre break on this coin is much more likely to be in the field in front of the bust. Outside a proof like coin that doesn’t have standar lustre, that’s a wide open area with a big band of lustre. It’s very easily broken with circulation but otherwise lustre should be consistent. Behind the eye the lustre can twirl or change appearance based on a host of properties of a given coin. A really frosty high-end coin might not have a band of lustre going through there, but it will have lustre going through the left field.
Not sure about that, but likely dipped.
What are the odds that a 140-year-old, blast-white coin has not been dipped at some point?
Here's an example about a frosty coin that can appear to have a lustre break, or at least not a solid band, going through the bust. Some of it may be a slight shadow from the lighting, but there are a few less bright areas on the bust (behind the lips, crossing the neck). It's just how coins like this look, and while the piece may not be uniformly bright with identical lustre everywhere, there are no breaks and its unquestionably uncirculated.
Nice example! Luster "break" on nice UNC coin.
How old is it okay for a blast white coin to be?
Depends on the type. Plenty of Morgans sat in the middle of a bag and stayed blast white.
Looks more like a frost break than a luster break.