What’s the Difference Between AU58 and MS60?
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Many collectors want to know what the differences are between a coin that grades AU58 and one that is MS60. It’s a question that comes up rather frequently, especially when some AU58 coins offer better eye appeal than a similar specimen that grades MS60.
PCGS defines the AU58 and MS60 grades this way:
AU58 – “[The coin] will show full detail with minor friction on only the highest points.”
MS60 – “[The coin] will have no wear on the high points. There may be many heavy marks and abrasions. Strike may not be full, luster may be very dull, and/or eye appeal may be quite negative.”
In other words, the technical differences between AU58 and MS60 in terms of wear may be the slightest whiff of circulation rub on the jawline of Abraham Lincoln on the Lincoln Cent or the cheek of Miss Liberty on the Morgan Dollar on the lightly worn specimen.
Find out more: https://www.pcgs.com/news/whats-the-difference-between-au58-and-ms60
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Comments
That 58 has to be worth more than that 60.
AU about uncirculated
MS. Mint state (uncirculated)
There is a thread about this “a better way to solve…..”
I’ll bump it up to here🤓🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The difference between AU58 and MS60 is usually obvious... the AU58 will have e.g. a clean cheek, good eye appeal, no distracting jangle. The MS60 may be beat all to hell.
For me, the problem comes in deciding if there is minor friction (or luster break) on the high points. That might be the difference between AU58 and MS66!
am
An AU-58 coins is an MS-64 or higher with light rub on high points. I don’t view the coin as two steps below MS-60 since an MS-60 will look like it’s gone through a battle with numerous contact marks.
Some collectors seem to think AU58s need to be super clean but that just isn’t the case. It is a level of wear not an indication of surface preservation. You can get a 58 by rubbing a 67 a little bit or by rubbing a 60 a little. There are many many Morgans graded AU58 that have bag marks, poor luster, or are otherwise unattractive.
In make bid / offer - I use AU 58 per CPG,CF, etc. as ref point. If only ref Kraus CV for MS60 then (58/60) x MS60 value. So if want 30 pct margin (say what plan retail it for) on that coin take .70 x retail price for 58 either per say CPG or I calculated = bid / offer.
Many try make case a nice AU 58 worth more than MS60 lol. It’s even some of their BS they use gotten at my table off bourse. I reject that. They can price how they want could care less what they think. I don’t argue a nice 58 can be more attractive than a 60. But if ball carrier doesn’t make the sticks for first down too bad so sad.
It is about the wear/friction on the high points.... and this is a feature that new collectors find difficult to identify/recognize. Cheers, RickO
Not only do some collectors think a 58 is "super clean" (terrible terminology) but the ANA thinks the coin should have "The barest trace of wear may be seen on one or more of the high points of the design. No major detracting contact marks will be present and the coin will have attractive eye appeal and nearly full luster, often with the appearance of a higher grade."
Neither PCGS nor NGC mentions the bolded section. Both simply specify light rub and virtually full luster (PCGS) or details (NGC).
Dig a little deeper. See on the PCGS website: https://pcgs.com/news/how-united-states-coins-are-graded
And: https://ngccoin.com/ana-welcome/
The foundation of grading for both companies is the ANA standard.
Yes, they copied the ANA guide there. That is not the standard they use as evidenced by their own standards published elsewhere in the site and the vast quantity of AU58s out there with heavy contact marks. Anyway, you are welcome to think that all such coins are overgraded. Certainly they are coins I avoid collecting as well.
What they give here is a very brief description of how a coin is graded. My educated guess is every single grader that works for either company was trained based on the ANA standards. There might be some minor modifications but in the main the ANA standards are the foundation.
TPG standards are based on TPG standards
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Where do you think the folks that founded PCGS (1985) and NGC (1987) got their grounding in the art of coin grading? The ANA (founded 1896).
Remedial reading...
Mark Salzberg
One of the world's most respected numismatists, Mark Salzberg has been working in the industry for over thirty years and joined NGC in 1988. Named ANA's Numismatist of the Year in 2006, he is a Life Member of the ANA, received the ANA's Presidential Award in 1998 and is also a member of the Professional Numismatist Guild (PNG). Mark helped create the US Mint's H.I.P. Pocket Change Program, designed to educate and spark youth interest in collecting. Career highlights include grading some of the world's most high profile coins, and sponsoring the Smithsonian Institution Legendary Coins & Currency exhibit with endowment and conservation of some of the country's most treasured artifacts. He is widely credited for his central role in standardizing and promoting the use of today's highly precise coin grading scale, an essential component of the coin industry's development. Mark has also published numerous articles and continues to be one of the leaders in the area of numismatics.
David Hall
What we do know is that Hall has an illustrious career résumé. He entered the professional side of numismatics in 1966 and became a full-time rare coin dealer in 1972. He has operated David Hall Rare Coins since 1977 and in 1985 went on to found Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) with six other dealers, serving as the firm’s first president upon its initial operations in February 1986. Hall has won numerous awards for his writing, business interests, and philanthropy, and in a 1996 issue of Numismatic News he was dubbed “the man who changed the rare coin market forever.” In 1999, COINage named Hall one of the top “Numismatists of the Century,” the same year he received the prestigious American Numismatic Association Presidential Award.
Everybody starts somewhere and for most if not all American numismatist that start was centered around the ANA and their grading standards. They may tweak here and there but in the main The ANA is at the foundation.
circulation...
Bet you don't get many nice 58's!
Marketing
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I would take a little rub on the high points of a 58 over a banged up 60 all day, every day.
So if you carried that MS60 in your pocket for a couple weeks, would it then grade 58?
No, it would be a 55 or a 53. Too banged up for a 58.
Not to me! I personally think and grade 55's and 58's by marks. Wear comes more into play on 50-53. 55's are either to baggy for a 58 or as clean as a 58 with a bit too much wear.
I agree. But personally I don't think that should impact technical grade. Unless bag marks become circulation marks after getting some wear as you can't actually determine the source at that point.
Gimme the 58. I'll pass on the 60.
My guess would be a MS60 is likely graded at 0800 on Monday morning, and AU58 at 1700 on Friday afternoon.
I admit I am a sucker for nice AU58's (even 55's) if they have the right look. They often have eye appeal that exceeds 63's.
Here is one (of many) where I liked the look.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I've seen a number of AU58's jump to MS62.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Two.
That's the short answer.
Actually One is the correct answer.
The biggest difference between AU58 and MS60 has nothing to do with circulation or rub. 60 is a borderline problem coin that happens to be uncirculated. 58 is a borderline choice uncirculated coin that happens to have very slight wear.
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NLH
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
Yeah, one has a problem and looks good. One is mint state and looks ugly.
The biggest difference in the Registry Set is the 58 let’s you win the Everyman Registry Set while the 60 would be hard pressed to win any award.
By definition, an uncirculated coin can't have wear.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Seems very disputable and difficult to see. Is there anything in between the AU58 and MS60? AU59? Sure seems like grading coins can be like splitting hairs.
Why can't some MS 61-63 with slight circulation/wear be graded an AU58? As I filled both Dansco and LOC Morgan albums with MS in the common, and even most semi-key dates, I bot dozens of MS61-63 coins to crack out for the albums. Yes, I was very selective in my purchases, but I wouldn't have an issue if these did circulate lightly to be graded AU58.
To improve transparency, my suggestion:
1. move the AU 50 and 53 to XF 50 and XF 53. There is nothing 'about uncirculated' with those graded coins
2. Open up the AU 55 - 59 grades to reflect the MS state 'before' circulation. AU59 could be used to reflect a Gem with slight wear. AU56 could be used for an MS61/62
Wow. Thanks for everyone posting. I am leaving this thread having learned. Circulated is circulated! Uncirculated is uncirculated! I am loosing focus because of so much debate about a fixed fact
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
PCGS defines the AU58 and MS60 grades this way:
AU58 – “[The coin] will show full detail with minor friction on only the highest points.”
MS60 – “[The coin] will have no wear on the high points. There may be many heavy marks and abrasions. Strike may not be full, luster may be very dull, and/or eye appeal may be quite negative."
actually, no, that isn't how PCGS "defines" AU58 and MS60 grades, below is how they define them at the linked page.
--- AU58. Only the slightest friction on the highest points. Virtually full luster.
--- MS60. No wear. May be poorly struck with many heavy marks and hairlines.
https://pcgs.com/grades
What a great discussion for me (and all).
Always learning.
Thanks.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
You could boil it down to:
The 58 is usually more attractive, with a rub.
The 60 isn't attractive, at all.
BHNC #203
Has anyone here ever seen a price guide where the AU58 coins are priced higher than the MS60 coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But it can have friction, and therein lies the rub!
The 97-S Barber Half in 58 was $15,000 for several years until a few more were made and the price came down from the 1st one sold.
Nope, but there are many AU-58's that I would rater have.
BHNC #203
see, more attractive and now, better priced.
BHNC #203
That’s fine if somebody wants to pay over 58 or 60 money for a 58 it’s their money / hobby. Let them suit themselves. But I would not and could care less what somebody thinks rofl. AU is AU. So far AU 58 my offer for example (buying for inventory) based on pct of CPG for 58. I will not pay over grade on holder.
I am a buyer for all your PCGS MS60 seated coinage for AU prices, the sweeping generalizations that don't reflect reality on this thread. Some (not most) AU58 can bring UNC prices, few if any UNCs bring AU prices. I have seen countless MS60s and 61s that 99.9% of AUs don't come close to and the few that do aren't really long for AU holders most likely.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Great examples. The first one is an AU66!
Here is another tip. MS60 Morgans are really ugly.
Maybe in general, but exceptions can be found. I bot this in an older NGC MS60 holder. Yes it has contact friction/chatter but the luster is still there.