@keets said: Why in heaven's name do they need to be slabbed?
for me, I think a TPG holder is the most secure, stable, protective form of storage medium that there is available. it also allows me to have a profession image of the encapsulated item taken "raw" that I can view, in lieu of the actual item, while providing easy storage and a consistent appearance. having items encapsulated in today's Numismatic world eases sales by helping a bidder/buyer with a price reference point along with an assurance that the item is genuine.
moving forward in time these will be minor considerations because more and more things are being encapsulated, so that tends to now be how they are purchased. having said that I should add that I still probably buy more medals raw than encapsulated, they just don't stay that way very long.
Preservation and photos are great reasons @keets! They make it a lot easier to enjoy the medals.
Of course, sellers don’t mind when I pay more for them too
Good news. I have found my research notes used to prepare the article. Will mine them for additional info on the mintage figures, such as in what order I recorded differing numbers.
Also found my inventory as of the time I sold the collection. Some costs included as well. I paid $50 for my Brian Boru in silver.
Will publish here from time to time.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Good news. I have found my research notes used to prepare the article. Will mine them for additional info on the mintage figures, such as in what order I recorded differing numbers.
Also found my inventory as of the time I sold the collection. Some costs included as well. I paid $50 for my Brian Boru in silver.
Will publish here from time to time.
TD
Great news Tom! It would be very interesting to cover in your new book
It would be great to add your provenance to your pieces. If you run across any, please post here so we can track it!
I was looking through Elder's medals and noted that he seemed to issue quite a few pieces until 1917 at which time it seems like he slowed down a lot.
Does anyone know if anything happened to elder in 1917 / 1918? Were his catalogs and sales still going strong or did they pause? Did something happen to his relationship with Christian Henry Hanson? Did he continue to work with C.H. Hanson in 1927 for the Lincoln pieces?
@Zoins said:
I was looking through Elder's medals and noted that he seemed to issue quite a few pieces until 1917 at which time it seems like he slowed down a lot.
Does anyone know if anything happened to elder in 1917 / 1918?...
.
I'm guessing the U.S. entry into WWI in 1917 might've played a factor.
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@Zoins said: 1917 Confederation / No Room for Hyphens - Silver - DeLorey-96, HK-887 - Ex. keets
@CaptHenway Do you know how many of these exist in silver like this? @keets and I have been looking a long time and have only seen this one specimen. I also spoke with Jeff Shevlin who indicated he wasn't aware of any.
You know, I think that I sold this to @keets or someone on this forum many years ago. I remember owning this piece at one time. Hey Keets, is this correct?
@Zoins said:
I was looking through Elder's medals and noted that he seemed to issue quite a few pieces until 1917 at which time it seems like he slowed down a lot.
Does anyone know if anything happened to elder in 1917 / 1918? Were his catalogs and sales still going strong or did they pause? Did something happen to his relationship with Christian Henry Hanson? Did he continue to work with C.H. Hanson in 1927 for the Lincoln pieces?
See my booklet on P. 1338.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Zoins said:
I was looking through Elder's medals and noted that he seemed to issue quite a few pieces until 1917 at which time it seems like he slowed down a lot.
Does anyone know if anything happened to elder in 1917 / 1918? Were his catalogs and sales still going strong or did they pause? Did something happen to his relationship with Christian Henry Hanson? Did he continue to work with C.H. Hanson in 1927 for the Lincoln pieces?
Do they ever appear in numismatic literature auctions?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
ANA members have free online access to the archives of The Numismatist. The booklet is a reprint of an article originally published in two parts, in the June and July, 1980 issues.
I really do like these small 15 mm pieces by Medallic Art Co for the 1909 Hudson-Fulton Celebration. Here is the silver Fulton piece to add to @Weiss set:
I thought it interesting that the small aluminum Hudson pieces were not released until March 1910 per the Delorey article... and that no aluminum Fulton pieces were issued.. "the late appearance of the aluminum strikings may explain why the companion Fulton pieces does not appear in Aluminum" on p 1617.
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
@Pioneer1 said:
I thought it interesting that the small aluminum Hudson pieces were not released until March 1910 per the Delorey article... and that no aluminum Fulton pieces were issued.. "the late appearance of the aluminum strikings may explain why the companion Fulton pieces does not appear in Aluminum" on p 1617.
So, are these restruck in aluminum by someone other than Elder?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Pioneer1 said:
I thought it interesting that the small aluminum Hudson pieces were not released until March 1910 per the Delorey article... and that no aluminum Fulton pieces were issued.. "the late appearance of the aluminum strikings may explain why the companion Fulton pieces does not appear in Aluminum" on p 1617.
So, are these restruck in aluminum by someone other than Elder?
I don't think the small Fulton pieces come in aluminum. I have the gold and silver... but have been patiently waiting to find a bronze or gilt.... I do have some of the Hudson pieces (they come in gold, silver, bronze, and aluminum like @Weiss has in his set).
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
I really do like these small 15 mm pieces by Medallic Art Co for the 1909 Hudson-Fulton Celebration. Here is the silver Fulton piece to add to @Weiss set:
Yes, the silver Fulton is in my collection; it's actually quite nice in hand even though it's Details per PCGS; I am just happy to own some of these small 1909 Hudson-Fulton pieces from Medallic Art. I overpaid for some of them, but that's how life goes.
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
Yes, the silver Fulton is in my collection; it's actually quite nice in hand even though it's Details per PCGS; I am just happy to own some of these small 1909 Hudson-Fulton pieces from Medallic Art. I overpaid for some of them, but that's how life goes.
Very nice looking and rare! Still a very nice piece!
@Zoins said: It's nice to see PCGS slabbing these with @CaptHenway numbers.
I have asked before so I'll ask again: What listed reference is used when submitting medals with a "DeLorey number" to PCGS?? I have before me the two Numismatist issues with the original articles, Thomas L. Elder, A Catalogue of His Tokens and Medals by the good Captain, is that what I use?? I wouldn't want to run the risk of wasting money for postage/insurance both ways for "Ineligible type" and returned.
Have you ever submitted one of the DeLorey listed medals?? If so, what reference were instructed to use??
@CaptHenway said:
Re: Bashlow restrikes. I mentioned them for the sake of future collectors knowing what they were, since I had seen them misrepresented when sold before the article was published, but as Bashlow's work rather than Elder's I did not consider them to be something I wanted to give a DeLorey number to. However, when Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder and I do the next Elder book, I will discuss it with them.
I agree it would be interesting to catalog the Bashlow restrikes.
A twist is now that Jeff @SoCalledGuy and Dan @dcarr are striking more Continental Dollar pieces. It could be interesting to catalog both these and the Piker's Peak restrikes done by Dan and John Dean in an Elder catalog.
I have asked before so I'll ask again: What listed reference is used when submitting medals with a "DeLorey number" to PCGS?? I have before me the two Numismatist issues with the original articles, Thomas L. Elder, A Catalogue of His Tokens and Medals by the good Captain, is that what I use?? I wouldn't want to run the risk of wasting money for postage/insurance both ways for "Ineligible type" and returned.
Have you ever submitted one of the DeLorey listed medals?? If so, what reference were instructed to use??
I don't know. I haven't submitted one and haven't contacted PCGS on this yet. It may be worth reaching out to PCGS or refacesupply (as he has a PCGS DeLorey cataloged piece).
Did you ask in this thread or another one? I didn't see a question in this thread and was curious to see if an answer was posted on this before by someone.
@Maywood said: @Zoins said: Nice DeLorey-88 medal @coinsarefun . That's really a beautiful medal and a great design! Congrats!
It looks like Elder was having some fun with some dies from Montroville Dickeson! I wonder where the dies are today?
Didn't they end up in the Smithsonian via Bashlow??
The Continental Dollar reverse die ended up with @FredWeinberg and was recently sold after I made that post above, so the other dies can still be out there. Fred may be able to post information on how he acquired that die or other other dies so I'm hoping he will post here.
In general, I haven't heard of the Continental Dollar or Confederation dies ending up at the Smithsonian but Bashlow did donate some other dies like the Lovett Confederate Cent dies, so it is worth investigating.
Dies Dickeson-Elder die was sold back in 2014. Do we know if Bashlow ever came in possession of this die?
My answer was directed at D-88 since that's the medal that was being discussed. I have no idea where any others might be.
From "So-Called Dollars" by Hibler-Kappen:
--- NOTE: In 1962, 7,200 White Metal restrikes were issued by the current owners of the dies, Empire Coin Company, owned by Q. David Bowers. The medals were minted by John Pinches & Sons, Ltd., of England. Empire Coin die varieties can be attributed by a small die gouge above the O of Continental in the denticles and a diagonal scratch below the C in Continental. Empire Coin Company then sold the dies to Robert Bashlow, who produced 2,000 Silver, 3,000 Goldine and 5,000 Bronze restrikes, together with "a few trial pieces in various metals." He later announced that "dies have already been donated to the Smithsonian Institution..." Thickness of these White Metal restrikes is approximately 2 1/2 mm. as compared with 3 mm. thickness of Dickeson piece, No. 854. Silver restrikes by Bashlow have small S on reverse and are approximately 2 3/4 mm. in thickness (no S on No. 852); Goldine and Bronze restrikes are approximately 2 1/2 mm. thick.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Maywood said:
My answer was directed at D-88 since that's the medal that was being discussed. I have no idea where any others might be.
From "So-Called Dollars" by Hibler-Kappen:
--- NOTE: In 1962, 7,200 White Metal restrikes were issued by the current owners of the dies, Empire Coin Company, owned by Q. David Bowers. The medals were minted by John Pinches & Sons, Ltd., of England. Empire Coin die varieties can be attributed by a small die gouge above the O of Continental in the denticles and a diagonal scratch below the C in Continental. Empire Coin Company then sold the dies to Robert Bashlow, who produced 2,000 Silver, 3,000 Goldine and 5,000 Bronze restrikes, together with "a few trial pieces in various metals." He later announced that "dies have already been donated to the Smithsonian Institution..." Thickness of these White Metal restrikes is approximately 2 1/2 mm. as compared with 3 mm. thickness of Dickeson piece, No. 854. Silver restrikes by Bashlow have small S on reverse and are approximately 2 3/4 mm. in thickness (no S on No. 852); Goldine and Bronze restrikes are approximately 2 1/2 mm. thick.
I saw the reference to DeLorey-88 which uses the Continental Dollar obverse die, so it seemed the whereabouts of the Continental Dollar reverse die would be relevant to the discussion, since they were used as a pair by Bashow.
For my purposes, I specifically look for publications by the Smithsonian or people who have seen pieces in the Smithsonian. I look for hard(er) evidence because I've run across things that were reportedly donated to the Smithsonian and reported as fact, when it seems to turn out to not be the case. See more here:
Also, per below, the quoted text from Hiber & Kappen is for the Continental Dollar restrike using both obverse and reverse dies (HK-852 to HK-856), not DeLorey-88 with the Confederation die (HK-857 to HK-860). The Confederation die is listed on the same HK website page / section as the HK-863-866 reverse die posted above.
If the quoted text is for the Continental Dollar restrike using both obverse and reverse dies as listed on the SCD website, then it seems at least one of the dies was not donated to the Smithsonian as reported.
This is also why I like the way the ANS catalogs their collection.
I have asked before so I'll ask again: What listed reference is used when submitting medals with a "DeLorey number" to PCGS?? I have before me the two Numismatist issues with the original articles, Thomas L. Elder, A Catalogue of His Tokens and Medals by the good Captain, is that what I use?? I wouldn't want to run the risk of wasting money for postage/insurance both ways for "Ineligible type" and returned.
Have you ever submitted one of the DeLorey listed medals?? If so, what reference were instructed to use??
The DeLorey catalog numbers are the numbers used in the two part series first printed in the Numismatist. The ANA later combined the two parts into a stand alone small catalog (below) which is simply copies of the articles with odd pages from other adjoining articles ("Revolution Of An Economy: The Soviet Experience") included. My copy seems to have Tuesday morning coffee stains on the cover but I just discovered that it is autographed by the good Captain himself (not his autopen).
I do not know if PCGS uses DeLorey numbers (I would think so) but I have submitted 30+ different #'s ATS - they have always used DeLorey #'s as shown below:
Autopen? Is that something I would have gotten at my Ford dealership?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Preservation and photos are great reasons @keets! They make it a lot easier to enjoy the medals.
Of course, sellers don’t mind when I pay more for them too
Good news. I have found my research notes used to prepare the article. Will mine them for additional info on the mintage figures, such as in what order I recorded differing numbers.
Also found my inventory as of the time I sold the collection. Some costs included as well. I paid $50 for my Brian Boru in silver.
Will publish here from time to time.
TD
never mind the Brian Boru in Silver, I will go all in for one in Bronze.
Great news Tom! It would be very interesting to cover in your new book
It would be great to add your provenance to your pieces. If you run across any, please post here so we can track it!
How rare are these?
NGC shows just 4 slabbed: 1 silver and 3 brass.
I would expect to see more given the mintages:
Silver and bronze are both awesome! I'm on the lookout for them too
I was looking through Elder's medals and noted that he seemed to issue quite a few pieces until 1917 at which time it seems like he slowed down a lot.
Does anyone know if anything happened to elder in 1917 / 1918? Were his catalogs and sales still going strong or did they pause? Did something happen to his relationship with Christian Henry Hanson? Did he continue to work with C.H. Hanson in 1927 for the Lincoln pieces?
.
I'm guessing the U.S. entry into WWI in 1917 might've played a factor.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
You know, I think that I sold this to @keets or someone on this forum many years ago. I remember owning this piece at one time. Hey Keets, is this correct?
See my booklet on P. 1338.
Good to know. Thanks!
Appreciation to @Zoins and @CaptHenway for the wealth of information in this thread.
It helps me understand the importance of my latest acquisition. @CaptHenway , how can I obtain a copy of your booklet?
This arrived earlier today.
DeLorey-71
Thomas L. Elder's Pennsylvania Gold
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Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
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Do they ever appear in numismatic literature auctions?
ANA members have free online access to the archives of The Numismatist. The booklet is a reprint of an article originally published in two parts, in the June and July, 1980 issues.
I think this one is extremely rare. Only 20 minted?
I really do like these small 15 mm pieces by Medallic Art Co for the 1909 Hudson-Fulton Celebration. Here is the silver Fulton piece to add to @Weiss set:
I thought it interesting that the small aluminum Hudson pieces were not released until March 1910 per the Delorey article... and that no aluminum Fulton pieces were issued.. "the late appearance of the aluminum strikings may explain why the companion Fulton pieces does not appear in Aluminum" on p 1617.
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
So, are these restruck in aluminum by someone other than Elder?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I don't think the small Fulton pieces come in aluminum. I have the gold and silver... but have been patiently waiting to find a bronze or gilt.... I do have some of the Hudson pieces (they come in gold, silver, bronze, and aluminum like @Weiss has in his set).
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
Is that yours, @Pioneer1? It's a beauty!
--Severian the Lame
Yes, the silver Fulton is in my collection; it's actually quite nice in hand even though it's Details per PCGS; I am just happy to own some of these small 1909 Hudson-Fulton pieces from Medallic Art. I overpaid for some of them, but that's how life goes.
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
Very nice looking and rare! Still a very nice piece!
The John Ericsson medals are some of my favorites due to his historical significance during the Civil War.
Here's one I just ran across.
It's nice to see PCGS slabbing these with @CaptHenway numbers
Anyone know what "PE" stands for?
Slab photos courtesy of refacesupply.
@Zoins said: It's nice to see PCGS slabbing these with @CaptHenway numbers.
I have asked before so I'll ask again: What listed reference is used when submitting medals with a "DeLorey number" to PCGS?? I have before me the two Numismatist issues with the original articles, Thomas L. Elder, A Catalogue of His Tokens and Medals by the good Captain, is that what I use?? I wouldn't want to run the risk of wasting money for postage/insurance both ways for "Ineligible type" and returned.
Have you ever submitted one of the DeLorey listed medals?? If so, what reference were instructed to use??
@Zoins said: Nice DeLorey-88 medal @coinsarefun . That's really a beautiful medal and a great design! Congrats!
It looks like Elder was having some fun with some dies from Montroville Dickeson! I wonder where the dies are today?
Didn't they end up in the Smithsonian via Bashlow??
I agree it would be interesting to catalog the Bashlow restrikes.
A twist is now that Jeff @SoCalledGuy and Dan @dcarr are striking more Continental Dollar pieces. It could be interesting to catalog both these and the Piker's Peak restrikes done by Dan and John Dean in an Elder catalog.
Here's a page from the Moonlight Mint Catalog:
http://www.moonlightmint.com/dc-coin_medals_club_A.htm
I don't know. I haven't submitted one and haven't contacted PCGS on this yet. It may be worth reaching out to PCGS or refacesupply (as he has a PCGS DeLorey cataloged piece).
Did you ask in this thread or another one? I didn't see a question in this thread and was curious to see if an answer was posted on this before by someone.
The Continental Dollar reverse die ended up with @FredWeinberg and was recently sold after I made that post above, so the other dies can still be out there. Fred may be able to post information on how he acquired that die or other other dies so I'm hoping he will post here.
In general, I haven't heard of the Continental Dollar or Confederation dies ending up at the Smithsonian but Bashlow did donate some other dies like the Lovett Confederate Cent dies, so it is worth investigating.
Dies Dickeson-Elder die was sold back in 2014. Do we know if Bashlow ever came in possession of this die?
My answer was directed at D-88 since that's the medal that was being discussed. I have no idea where any others might be.
From "So-Called Dollars" by Hibler-Kappen:
--- NOTE: In 1962, 7,200 White Metal restrikes were issued by the current owners of the dies, Empire Coin Company, owned by Q. David Bowers. The medals were minted by John Pinches & Sons, Ltd., of England. Empire Coin die varieties can be attributed by a small die gouge above the O of Continental in the denticles and a diagonal scratch below the C in Continental. Empire Coin Company then sold the dies to Robert Bashlow, who produced 2,000 Silver, 3,000 Goldine and 5,000 Bronze restrikes, together with "a few trial pieces in various metals." He later announced that "dies have already been donated to the Smithsonian Institution..." Thickness of these White Metal restrikes is approximately 2 1/2 mm. as compared with 3 mm. thickness of Dickeson piece, No. 854. Silver restrikes by Bashlow have small S on reverse and are approximately 2 3/4 mm. in thickness (no S on No. 852); Goldine and Bronze restrikes are approximately 2 1/2 mm. thick.
@Zoins I don't know. I doubt it.
TD
I saw the reference to DeLorey-88 which uses the Continental Dollar obverse die, so it seemed the whereabouts of the Continental Dollar reverse die would be relevant to the discussion, since they were used as a pair by Bashow.
For my purposes, I specifically look for publications by the Smithsonian or people who have seen pieces in the Smithsonian. I look for hard(er) evidence because I've run across things that were reportedly donated to the Smithsonian and reported as fact, when it seems to turn out to not be the case. See more here:
Also, per below, the quoted text from Hiber & Kappen is for the Continental Dollar restrike using both obverse and reverse dies (HK-852 to HK-856), not DeLorey-88 with the Confederation die (HK-857 to HK-860). The Confederation die is listed on the same HK website page / section as the HK-863-866 reverse die posted above.
If the quoted text is for the Continental Dollar restrike using both obverse and reverse dies as listed on the SCD website, then it seems at least one of the dies was not donated to the Smithsonian as reported.
This is also why I like the way the ANS catalogs their collection.
PE is PCGS parlance for “plain edge”.
The DeLorey catalog numbers are the numbers used in the two part series first printed in the Numismatist. The ANA later combined the two parts into a stand alone small catalog (below) which is simply copies of the articles with odd pages from other adjoining articles ("Revolution Of An Economy: The Soviet Experience") included. My copy seems to have Tuesday morning coffee stains on the cover but I just discovered that it is autographed by the good Captain himself (not his autopen).
I do not know if PCGS uses DeLorey numbers (I would think so) but I have submitted 30+ different #'s ATS - they have always used DeLorey #'s as shown below:
Autopen? Is that something I would have gotten at my Ford dealership?
