Thomas L. Elder's Tokens & Medals
Zoins
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Thomas Lindsay Elder was a prolific dealer and issuer of medals, tokens and store cards.
My collection of his pieces is growing as I enjoy his topics and wit.
We've had a few Elder before but they were very specific. This is a general thread to discuss and celebrate his work.
Please post any of your pieces here.
The definitive guide is written by @CaptHenway, but many of his pieces are also cataloged as So-Called Dollars by Harold E Hibler & Charles Vaughan Kappen.
1917 Confederation / No Room for Hyphens - Silver - DeLorey-96, HK-887 - Ex. keets
1917 Confederation / Visit of our Allies - Brass - DeLorey-94, HK-437 - Ex. Ostheimer, keets
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I don't think the Santa Maria ever visited Jamestown, Virginia, but it's a nice ship theme so I couldn't resist.
1907 Thomas L. Elder Jamestown Ter-Centennial Exposition Store Card - Brass, Plain Edge - DeLorey-7
1907 Thomas L. Elder Jamestown Ter-Centennial Exposition Store Card - Copper, Plain Edge - DeLorey-7
I'm sure he saves a few bucks by using an existing die with a ship on it.
Certainly. It looks like he had access to both dies for Eglit-63 and used them on his store cards. Here's a dealer token I have made with the other side in brass. @tokenpro has a nice example in copper which I'm still looking for.
It does look like he's fond of doing restrikes using dies with good designs and then supplying a much more simple side with text.
Do we know he worked with for die sinking / engraving?
1907 Thomas L. Elder ANA Triennial Convention Medal - Brass - DeLorey-9, Eglit-64
Somewhere I have a better image of this one. I’ve had it for ears,
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Nice DeLorey-88 medal @coinsarefun . That's really a beautiful medal and a great design! Congrats!
It looks like Elder was having some fun with some dies from Montroville Dickeson! I wonder where the dies are today?
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.same attitude as me…….. CoinAreFun !
I need to make something that is CoinAreFun
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Love your handle and yes, coins should be fun!
You should definitely make something
@CaptHenway One thing that's very interesting about Elder is that he restruck other people's dies. If you do an update to your reference, do you think restrikes of Elder's pieces like the following done by Robert Bashlow should be included?
@CaptHenway Do you know how many of these exist in silver like this? @keets and I have been looking a long time and have only seen this one specimen. I also spoke with Jeff Shevlin who indicated he wasn't aware of any.
Bill of CoinPeople.com mentions that Elder had his die striking done by Hanson of Chicago.
Anyone know where the gold Ericsson medal is? Has this obverse die ever been paired with a 1903 medal?
https://www.coinpeople.com/topic/25153-thomas-l-elder-store-cards-and-medals/
Here's some info from David Schenkman:
http://onlinedigitalpublishing.com/article/TOKENS/1474984/170443/article.html
This seems to be Christian Henry Hanson's company which is still in existence:
https://www.chhanson.com/stories
I sure hope there are at least a few of those around, I hate to know I sold a unique piece!!!
Very neat! I'm a fan of his medals.
I hope another shows up if you’ll feel better! Either way, it has a good home and may have company!
I have this one as well which might be unique. It's not listed in @CaptHenway's reference in silver!
1917 Numismatic Knights of the Round Table - Silver. 38 mm - DeLorey-93 - NGC MS63 - Ex. Tim Gabriele
Great! It would be exciting to see your medals
We should see if we can cover all the DeLorey numbers created by @CaptHenway in this thread!
this is my most recent addition.
Re: dies. As I mentioned in the article many of Elder's dies were made and struck by the C.H. Hanson Co. of Chicago.
Interestingly, while I was still working for the ANA, I happened to be in the mail room one day and I noticed an incoming package from C.H. Hanson of Chicago! I asked what was in it, and they were numbered tags for convention case keys.
I have a few. Will post later.
Re: Bashlow restrikes. I mentioned them for the sake of future collectors knowing what they were, since I had seen them misrepresented when sold before the article was published, but as Bashlow's work rather than Elder's I did not consider them to be something I wanted to give a DeLorey number to. However, when Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder and I do the next Elder book, I will discuss it with them.
Re: Silver Strikes. All of Elder's reported mintage figures are questionable. I listed the mintage figures that he gave in his auction catalogues when selling the pieces, but his numbers often contradicted themselves.
Right after the article appeared I was at the ANA Convention when Arlie SLabaugh came up to me at the NLG Bash and said: "You know the (certain piece I wish I could remember) that you said was unique in Silver! I have it!" I shook his hand and said: "Congratulations! So do I!!!"
Elder? Never heard of him.
--Severian the Lame
I have tried to buy one of those at auction several times, but have never been successful.
Bill, do like me, bite your lip hard and force yourself to bid!!!
sometimes it's the only way.
Great collection! Nice to see provenance from Dave Snider (Cosmique), Alfred and Jacque Ostheimer, and Jeff Shevlin!
Here's your TrueView for HK-371:
That’s a beautiful piece. I still remember how excited you were to pick it up. Congrats on a beautiful specimen!
Here's a photo of some Elder catalogs from @SteveHayden.
Some nice things about the catalogs:
Per this store card, Elder Coin & Curio Corp'n was located at 32 East 23rd Street, New York City.
I couldn't find any photos from the time Elder's shop was there but was able to find photos of it today and earlier in 2016.
The building stil exists. It's currently an Arby's which they picked up in 2016. They seemed to be closed now but when they open up and you are interested in talking coins, go get a roast beef sandwich or Greek gyro
https://commercialobserver.com/2016/10/arbys-nabs-second-manhattan-space-this-one-in-flatiron-district/
Prior to 2016, it was split between two shops: Lin's Chinese Restaurant and Subway. In this photo you can clearly see the number "30" to the right of Subway and "34" to the left of Lin's.
Some of Elder's dies are still known today. The Pennsylvania Gold 1/2 Nerve die pair is owned by John Dean. This token was a satirical commentary on Farran Zerbe's gold tokens that he sold at the Louisiana Purchase Expo (LPE).
In 2019, Dan Carr and John Dean partnered to create some restrikes. 10 restrikes were made in gold as follows. These photos were from an eBay auction where one of the 10 was offered at $1,000. I didn't pick it up but I was very tempted. These were never offered for sale at original issue by John Dean, whose name is on the insert.
Dan did pair these original dies with a new portrait die he created.
The regular issue included overstriking large cents from 1816 to 1856, along with silver specimens on new planchets.
This is my large cent overstrike pair:
I found a bit more on the unique silver piece in the October 7, 2007 issue of E-Sylum. Apparently it's a silver Numismatic Knights of the Round Table piece like I posted above! The Knights pieces are paired with various dies so there are a few questions:
It would be great to have photo confirmations of both the specimens.
Here's the article titled REMEMBRANCES OF ARLIE SLABAUGH in The E-Sylum: Volume 10, Number 40, October 7, 2007:
https://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v10n40.html
@CaptHenway Looking over the Stack's lot description for DeLorey-93 in silver indicates that the silver Numismatic Knights piece Elder said was unique likely isn't DeLorey-93 with the Confederation die. This is because Stack's says your reference doesn't list DeLorey-93 in silver.
Do you recall what die your medal as paired with? Alternately is there only a single Knights piece listed as unique in silver?
This makes more more curious as I haven't been able to find photos of any other silver Numismatic Knights pieces online, so it likely means both specimens are not shared online.
Here's the Stack's Bowers description:
I owned the DeLorey-92 in Silver (Knights reverse with the 1776 Obv.), so maybe when Arlie said he had the Knights in Silver he had one with the CONFEDERATIO Obv. (DeLorey-93) and he confused it with the DeLorey-92. I do not recall him mentioning the obverse of his piece, but when he said it was listed as Unique I automatically assumed it was the listed DeLorey-92.
So, perhaps there are just one of each in silver, and the CONFEDERATION piece is ex-Slabaugh.
TD
Zions- very very interesting thread. Alot of history...
That does sound like a possibility. If true, are you aware of other areas where Elder's mintage numbers didn't add up? Or can they be trusted a bit more?
Definitely. I love the participating and learning on these threads It's great when multiple people can get together and figure out something!
Anyone watch or pick up pieces in the Elder sales on Heritage a few days ago? Anyone know the seller(s)?
@CaptHenway I know you had an awesome collection you sold a while back but you are still very involved with these pieces. Have you started collecting again?
Whenever I gave a range, such as 5-10, he quoted 5 in one catalogue and 10 in another.
No.
Are the numbers dated, for example via catalog dates? In addition to the range, it would be useful to know the last date’s count. This may account for new strikings or pieces that were destroyed.
Don't think that I wrote down the dates of the catalogues.
Could be interesting for the next book you’re working on.
Nice medal Piker's Peak Gold. A•N•ASS is hilarious, but I'm not sure if everyone was amused. I wonder how popular he was at the ANA?
Would Elder be allowed on the PCGS CU Forums today?
I think that "short term" this medal may have upset people but "long term" it has become clear that Farran Zerbe was a shameless marketer who used his control and influence of the ANA to his monetary advantage. it took time, but that truth is now known. the same can be said for Elder's tirade(s) towards William Jennings Bryan. sadly, for WJB it took the "Scopes Monkey Trial" for the truth to be known about him and the stress that went with it probably cost him his life.
it should be noted that Thomas Elder died an unhappy man and probably alone, alienated from the Hobby.
For the record, it says "A.N.ASSo." as in Association.
Thanks for the pointing that out!
I know he was having an issue with Zerbe and was using the imagery to call Zerbe a donkey. Good to know he didn't use the specific text I thought ... or did he, just with an excuse. It almost seems like too much of a coincidence with the donkey.
I know a few people have a dim view of Zerbe. What monetary advantage did he get? I'm not very up to speed on the negatives.
When I think of Zerbe, I think of generally positive things like:
That's really too bad for anyone.
Tom, It seems like Bill also thinks Elder may be calling Zerbe a a** on his token:
Ref: https://www.coinpeople.com/topic/21157-was-ana-president-farran-zerbe-a-n-ass/
Here's another question, why are some pops so low?
For example, the following two DeLorey-7 pieces have a pop of 1 each in brass and copper. Are these really that rare? Or do most people just not slab these?
Why in heaven's name do they need to be slabbed? If I still had my collection it would still be raw.
I never said they had to be slabbed. I'm just curious given how prevalent slabbing is and how many Elder pieces are generally slabbed. It could certainly be that Elder tokens collectors feel no need for slabbing like EAC collectors.
Another reason could be that they were slabbed early as pieces early in NGC's history are not on the census which can account for the silver DeLorey-93 being slabbed but not on the census. Of course, this explanation isn't completely satisfactory as the slab has a newer insert and an edge view gasket.
Regarding DeLorey-7 specifically, WorthPoint seems to only show 2 specimens of the Jamestown DeLorey-7 tokens which would seem to indicate some level of rarity. One is a NGC AU58 token which looks like white metal but also isn't in the NGC Census. Like DeLorey-93, this one could be early enough to not be shown in the census but the holder has prongs which would seem to indicate this isn't the case.
The copper token on WorthPoint wasn't able to be encapsulated as it was lacquered.
Why in heaven's name do they need to be slabbed?
for me, I think a TPG holder is the most secure, stable, protective form of storage medium that there is available. it also allows me to have a profession image of the encapsulated item taken "raw" that I can view, in lieu of the actual item, while providing easy storage and a consistent appearance. having items encapsulated in today's Numismatic world eases sales by helping a bidder/buyer with a price reference point along with an assurance that the item is genuine.
moving forward in time these will be minor considerations because more and more things are being encapsulated, so that tends to now be how they are purchased. having said that I should add that I still probably buy more medals raw than encapsulated, they just don't stay that way very long.