Would this 1799 DBD get a CAC sticker?

MKUltra24

Do you guys think this 1799 Draped Bust Dollar would get a CAC sticker?

I’m just curious because I’ve seen VF20 ones in slightly worse condition than mine and some people have said mine looks like it’s very nice for an F12.

Any input or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

jmlanzaf

Looks solid for a 12. Should CAC.

MKUltra24

@jmlanzaf said:
Looks solid for a 12. Should CAC.

Thanks! I appreciate it.

Since I bought it I felt like it was slightly undergraded (the only coin I have that I feel is undergraded) and I wanted to get the opinion of people who would know better than I do.

cameonut2011

It looks solid for the grade. Assuming there are no hidden surface issues not apparent in the photo, it appears to have a good shot at the magic green bean.

MFeld

Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Steven59

I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

MKUltra24

@cameonut2011 said:
It looks solid for the grade. Assuming there are no hidden surface issues not apparent in the photo, it appears to have a good shot at the magic green bean.

Thanks for your input!

The only surface issue I can see is that light vertical scratch down the neck but fortunately it’s not too bad.

MKUltra24

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Nah it’s on the coin unfortunately

I don’t think it’s been cleaned though since NGC usually identifies cleaned coins. What do you see that makes you think it’s been cleaned?

BryceM

Really awesome coin, but CAC is pretty tough on early US type. The vertical scratch on the neck would probably nix it. Apart from that, the surfaces look a little "processed" to me. Lots of gunk hiding around the devices with pretty clean fields. Could just be from circulation.... I dunno.

Only one way to find out though, right?

MKUltra24

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

fluffy155

Just going by the photos I don't think it will, the reverse looks scrubbed. TPGs are very lenient on early dollars when it comes to cleaning.

MFeld

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Nah it’s on the coin unfortunately

I don’t think it’s been cleaned though since NGC usually identifies cleaned coins. What do you see that makes you think it’s been cleaned?

Many coins that have been cleaned receive straight-grades from the major grading companies. But if they feel the cleaning is too severe, they assign a details-grade, instead.

I suspect that the area I mentioned has been cleaned, due to the light color there, compared to much of the rest of the reverse. My guess is that the coin won’t sticker, but I hope I’m mistaken.

MasonG

The obverse and reverse surface colors are different?

Crusty

I vote no CAC…. Solid for the grade but it’s been cleaned.

MKUltra24

@MasonG said:
The obverse and reverse surface colors are different?

But that doesn’t really mean anything.

I’ve seen Morgan Dollars that have rainbow colors on the obverse and blast white on the reverse.

MKUltra24

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Nah it’s on the coin unfortunately

I don’t think it’s been cleaned though since NGC usually identifies cleaned coins. What do you see that makes you think it’s been cleaned?

Many coins that have been cleaned receive straight-grades from the major grading companies. But if they feel the cleaning is too severe, they assign a details-grade, instead.

I suspect that the area I mentioned has been cleaned, due to the light color there, compared to much of the rest of the reverse. My guess is that the coin won’t sticker, but I hope I’m mistaken.

Wouldn’t cleaning remove the toning though?

Steven59

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

Yes really. Not enough details on it for F15. Add the scratch and possible cleaning and it's a solid F12

MasonG

@MKUltra24 said:
But that doesn’t really mean anything.

Ok.

MFeld

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Nah it’s on the coin unfortunately

I don’t think it’s been cleaned though since NGC usually identifies cleaned coins. What do you see that makes you think it’s been cleaned?

Many coins that have been cleaned receive straight-grades from the major grading companies. But if they feel the cleaning is too severe, they assign a details-grade, instead.

I suspect that the area I mentioned has been cleaned, due to the light color there, compared to much of the rest of the reverse. My guess is that the coin won’t sticker, but I hope I’m mistaken.

Wouldn’t cleaning remove the toning though?

As I mentioned, the area I’m talking about is lighter (or if you prefer, less toned) than much of the rest of the surface area.

You appear to be arguing with at least some of the posters who don’t think the coin will sticker. You asked for opinions and you're getting them.

DelawareDoons

I don't think it will CAC. Two different colors on each side, some other issues.

golden

I don't think it will CAC.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Hmmm...I thought that was on the holder. If it is that obvious, we may have a problem.

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

Everyone thinks their coin looks better than everyone else's. That coin is equivalent to yours in my eyes. The color didn't show as much contrast as the dark areas of yours, but I don't think that had anything to do with its actual degree of preservation.

keyman64

Not a fan of what looks to be an obverse scratch. I doubt CAC would be a fan of it either.
That said, there is only one way to find out if it would sticker.

Aercus

The reverse looks like it has a little too much "help" for a CAC sticker. In my opinion, will not sticker. However, only one way to find out for sure...

MKUltra24

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Nah it’s on the coin unfortunately

I don’t think it’s been cleaned though since NGC usually identifies cleaned coins. What do you see that makes you think it’s been cleaned?

Many coins that have been cleaned receive straight-grades from the major grading companies. But if they feel the cleaning is too severe, they assign a details-grade, instead.

I suspect that the area I mentioned has been cleaned, due to the light color there, compared to much of the rest of the reverse. My guess is that the coin won’t sticker, but I hope I’m mistaken.

Wouldn’t cleaning remove the toning though?

As I mentioned, the area I’m talking about is lighter (or if you prefer, less toned) than much of the rest of the surface area.

You appear to be arguing with at least some of the posters who don’t think the coin will sticker. You asked for opinions and you're getting them.

I don’t know why people always assume asking a question is arguing. It’s not. It’s me trying to learn.

Catbert

A prominent scratch on a coin is unlikely to be recognized as “premium for the grade”.

MKUltra24

@Catbert said:
A prominent scratch on a coin is unlikely to be recognized as “premium for the grade”.

@keyman64 said:
Not a fan of what looks to be an obverse scratch. I doubt CAC would be a fan of it either.
That said, there is only one way to find out if it would sticker.

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Hmmm...I thought that was on the holder. If it is that obvious, we may have a problem.

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

Everyone thinks their coin looks better than everyone else's. That coin is equivalent to yours in my eyes. The color didn't show as much contrast as the dark areas of yours, but I don't think that had anything to do with its actual degree of preservation.

The scratch isn’t that blatant to the naked eye to be honest. The picture was taken by NGC under very bright lighting.

This is what it looks like to the naked eye and with my cellphone camera.

Nysoto

Details solid for F12, reverse looks wiped or thumbed. If scratch was toned over it would not be as distracting.

MKUltra24

@Nysoto said:
Details solid for F12, reverse looks wiped or thumbed. If scratch was toned over it would not be as distracting.

The scratch really isn’t prominent or noticeable at all under normal lighting. It’s just that NGC used very, very, bright lights when they took the picture.

This is what it looks like under normal lighting. The scratch is barely noticeable.

jesbroken

I think the scratch will not be the prominent reason for a rejection by CAC. Cleaning, I believe would be a killer, especially in addition to the scratch. I truly like the coin and the grade. Hope I'm wrong, best of luck. Let us know how it fairs, should you elect to send it in.
Jim

MasonG

A scratch is a scratch. Depending on the lighting, it can appear more or less severe.

asheland

Sadly, I agree with the others, I have seen some of these early dollars in straight graded holders that have indeed been cleaned. Albeit lightly enough to squeeze through with a straight grade. Market acceptable
I highly doubt it would CAC.

Still a cool coin though.

Gazes

Seems like you got some knowledgeable opinions. Why not submit it if you think it will sticker?

MFeld

@MKUltra24 said:

@Catbert said:
A prominent scratch on a coin is unlikely to be recognized as “premium for the grade”.

@keyman64 said:
Not a fan of what looks to be an obverse scratch. I doubt CAC would be a fan of it either.
That said, there is only one way to find out if it would sticker.

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Hmmm...I thought that was on the holder. If it is that obvious, we may have a problem.

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

Everyone thinks their coin looks better than everyone else's. That coin is equivalent to yours in my eyes. The color didn't show as much contrast as the dark areas of yours, but I don't think that had anything to do with its actual degree of preservation.

The scratch isn’t that blatant to the naked eye to be honest. The picture was taken by NGC under very bright lighting.

This is what it looks like to the naked eye and with my cellphone camera.

Scratch aside, the reverse looks cleaned to the point where I don’t think the coin will sticker.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@Catbert said:
A prominent scratch on a coin is unlikely to be recognized as “premium for the grade”.

@keyman64 said:
Not a fan of what looks to be an obverse scratch. I doubt CAC would be a fan of it either.
That said, there is only one way to find out if it would sticker.

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Hmmm...I thought that was on the holder. If it is that obvious, we may have a problem.

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

Everyone thinks their coin looks better than everyone else's. That coin is equivalent to yours in my eyes. The color didn't show as much contrast as the dark areas of yours, but I don't think that had anything to do with its actual degree of preservation.

The scratch isn’t that blatant to the naked eye to be honest. The picture was taken by NGC under very bright lighting.

This is what it looks like to the naked eye and with my cellphone camera.

Scratch aside, the reverse looks cleaned to the point where I don’t think the coin will sticker.

Idk. Early classic has different rules. I'm going to retract all opinions.

MKUltra24

@MFeld said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@Catbert said:
A prominent scratch on a coin is unlikely to be recognized as “premium for the grade”.

@keyman64 said:
Not a fan of what looks to be an obverse scratch. I doubt CAC would be a fan of it either.
That said, there is only one way to find out if it would sticker.

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
Is the vertical scratch from the neck down to the bust on the coin or the holder? Also, the upper central reverse area looks like it might have been cleaned and if so, that, alone, could keep the coin from stickering.

Hmmm...I thought that was on the holder. If it is that obvious, we may have a problem.

@MKUltra24 said:

@Steven59 said:
I have no idea about the CAC sticker but it looks like the correct grade at F12

Oh really?

I just feel like it looks better than other F12s like this one.

Everyone thinks their coin looks better than everyone else's. That coin is equivalent to yours in my eyes. The color didn't show as much contrast as the dark areas of yours, but I don't think that had anything to do with its actual degree of preservation.

The scratch isn’t that blatant to the naked eye to be honest. The picture was taken by NGC under very bright lighting.

This is what it looks like to the naked eye and with my cellphone camera.

Scratch aside, the reverse looks cleaned to the point where I don’t think the coin will sticker.

Fair enough. Glad I asked before spending the money.

jdimmick

No,

little too light in color on reverse from old cleaning or lightning up

cameonut2011

I’ve seen several several coins with scratches from the early federal period that have stickered. Why would this coin be treated any differently? If the coin fails, it’s likely that there is evidence of cleaning in hand.

cameonut2011

OP, there is no downside on submitting it. The worst case scenario you’re out of postage and insurance and it fails. This is far outweighed by potential educational value of submitting it.

cameonut2011

@MKUltra24 said:
This is what it looks like to the naked eye and with my cellphone camera.

How bright is the reverse in hand? Are there any hairlines?

jonruns

You won't know for sure until you send it in.

ricko

If the sticker is important, submit it and see what happens. You have some great opinions here, by knowledgeable people. Your decision. Cheers, RickO

metalmeister

Nice piece of history. Congrats.

skier07

If I were an oddsmaker 70% no sticker.

BillJones

If you ignore the small scratch on the obverse, you still can't get passed the reverse, which has been cleaned. I don't think that it will pass the test.

ColonelJessup

If you insist, you certainly have not just my permission but my encouragement to continuing to live in ignorance

MKUltra24

@ColonelJessup said:
If you insist, you certainly have not just my permission but my encouragement to continuing to live in ignorance

Who are you even talking too?
No one is insisting on anything.

You sound like one of those grumpy old men who just likes to insult people to make yourself feel better.

Trust me. It won’t bring you happiness.

MKUltra24

@BillJones said:
If you ignore the small scratch on the obverse, you still can't get passed the reverse, which has been cleaned. I don't think that it will pass the test.

That’s a fair point I should probably send it in to NGC for their guarantee or replacement rather than send it into CAC if it’s been cleaned.

MFeld

@MKUltra24 said:

@BillJones said:
If you ignore the small scratch on the obverse, you still can't get passed the reverse, which has been cleaned. I don't think that it will pass the test.

That’s a fair point I should probably send it in to NGC for their guarantee or replacement rather than send it into CAC if it’s been cleaned.

That probably wouldn't get you anywhere. It's unlikely that NGC would agree that the coin merits use of their grading guarantee - they will probably find it to be perfectly acceptable, as is.

lkenefic

My first impression was: nice 18th C Type coin... but I noticed the vertical scratch and an old cleaning. It's still a coin I'd love to have in my collection, but I doubt it would CAC. Nice piece regardless...

Legacy

My experience has been that CAC is tough on Liberty Seated Dollars and silver coins in general. The scratch on the obverse might be a problem. Beautiful coin either way - nice pick up.