@MilesWaits said:
Is the price change making a difference for y’all? Who will buy at that price?
I will pass for now. It has around a 45-50% markup at $2900 (changing a lot each day). I will wait. Recently I saw a PF69 of a different year for around $2350. That was of more interest to me.
4,038 demand as of Sept 19th. My earlier prediction of less than 5,000 sales of the 12,000 planned mintage may not be very far off. Wonder how many of these blanks the Mint bought and struck ahead of time?
It also seems like a lot of 69's being graded proportionally at this point which is a bit unusual, as mint quality was pretty good on these in other years. And this is even with some dealers stating 70 only for grading. Currently 55-70's, 35-69's.
Between the AM and PM fix on September 23, 2021, the price dropped $104.00.
On a percentage basis there have only been 20 times in the past 25 years that we have seen a Larger percentage drop between the AM and PM fixes for Palladium…
Between the AM and PM fix on September 23, 2021, the price dropped $104.00.
On a percentage basis there have only been 20 times in the past 25 years that we have seen a Larger percentage drop between the AM and PM fixes for Palladium…
I have noticed that too. I wonder if it has to do with people trying to figure out what will happen as it's main use in autos dries up. I continue to watch graded coins at a few dealers that change their prices continuously as spot moves. Maybe some day I will get one of these.
Between the AM and PM fix on September 23, 2021, the price dropped $104.00.
On a percentage basis there have only been 20 times in the past 25 years that we have seen a Larger percentage drop between the AM and PM fixes for Palladium…
I have noticed that too. I wonder if it has to do with people trying to figure out what will happen as it's main use in autos dries up.
Anytime you have a market top or a market bottom you have considerable volatility. The market is just trying to determine if this is the bottom of this leg or the top of this leg...
I broke down and bought one after the price drop, but unfortunately it was scratched in the field, so sent it back. One of my $50 gold eagle proof T2's also had a very similar scratch.
These scratches are small, but definite hits, and it is difficult to understand what is causing them. I suspect something related mechanically? to get them into capsules. A lot of 69's and they have been selling for about $2,700 on eBay.
About 4,548 buying demand so far and they no longer qualify for First Strike if purchased now. Price did drop this week to $2,850 and most all platinum and palladium have gone into the limited category.
GoldMiner, Keep us posted on how long it takes you from the moment you start the return for the palladium coin to the point that you receive a refund. I am intrigued. Sorry to hear it has a scratch.
@MilesWaits said:
GoldMiner, Keep us posted on how long it takes you from the moment you start the return for the palladium coin to the point that you receive a refund. I am intrigued. Sorry to hear it has a scratch.
Very long story. Ordered 9/23/2021, received 9/30/2021, Used Mint website to request a return. It was approved and they provided a return RMA and a post office label to get a refund, as an exchange was was past First Strike date. Mailed 10/01/2021. After sitting in Memphis for several extra days, On Oct 12th it finally said it was "Out for Delivery"
Then received a "delivery exception, not scanned". Oct 13, 14, 15 also still no delivery scan, so I panicked that it may have been lost. Usually with a provided return label (like PCGS does for mechanical errors) you get insurance, but fine print on the Mint website says you should buy insurance on returns because they don't cover for lost mail.
I still don't even know if you can even buy insurance at the Post Office on a preprinted label from the Mint. Also to file a claim you have to have a receipt showing you bought the label, so I figured I may have just lost $2900. So I filed a missing mail search request with USPS on the 15th. Then every day from Oct 15th to the 21st I still received delivery exception notices.
So I sent an email to the Mint explaining all this and asked them if possible to send me another coin, if they could not do a refund, as they can do that if a coin is lost in the mail to you, and they have plenty of these remaining. Figured that was my best hope.
Then at 10PM last night, I get an automated email from USPS that "Search Request Delivered". I look at tracking and magic happens, it says the coin was scanned and delivered to the Mint Return Department in Memphis on time on Oct 12th!, and shows no record of all the other delays anymore.
So it is Sunday 24th now and I have no idea if I will get a coin or a refund, but at least there is proof they got my package. Will wait to see what happens this next week.
PS. I also gave up, and bought an expensive $3995 PR70 FDOI, because I decided to keep my complete set after all. This one might end up being a modern eagle key long term, or at least tough to get in 70 FS, due to quality issues, low demand, and a high price this year:
2017 limit 15,000 sold 15,000
2018 limit 15,000 sold 14,986
2019 limit 30,000 sold 18,581 so far as of Oct 17th report
2020 limit 10,000 sold 9,498 so far as of Oct 17th report
2021 mintage limit 12,000 sold only 4,413 so far as of Oct 17th report
PCGS pop report of 70's:
2017 3,801
2018 5,870
2019 4,050
2020 1,981
2021 only 568 graded 70 so far.
Goldminers, sorry to hear of your long drawn out saga. This is typical of my experience. Like I said in other threads, I am done with returns, particularly high dollar returns, to the Mint.
I hope it turns out well for you!
On 10/11 rec'd an empty OGP & no invoice from the mint for the RP set (21XJ). I have a video of the box opening, the inside brown paper wrapping did not look disturbed and the outside box tape not bad? More signs point to the US Mint vs. USPS issue but it is a crap shoot. Although, I enjoy the craps table much more when we are all playing with a "fair" set of dice. Interesting they say they will refund me but have no interest in viewing any pics or video.
I just don’t think these coins will ever retain any significant numismatic value - which means they will always trade as bullion on the secondary market. That means you’ll never get 3000 for these coins because ICEs will require less and less Pd as time goes on and transition to EVs. Platinum, on the other hand, is a different story. It is needed in EVs and other green energy and battery uses as well. In my view, Pd is overpriced compared to Pt and a reversion to the mean is coming.
Again, not enough numismatic value to float these over the spot price in the future imho
@cagcrisp said:
There will be a 2021 Palladium Bullion coin coming in November or December 2021…
I see pre-sales at MM for week of Nov 24th. for the new BU bullion version you mentioned. It is interesting the Mint chose to issue a new 2021 bullion coin in December. Does that mean the bullion dealers have only Nov and Dec to order what they want for 2021?
Will a new 2022 palladium bullion also show up in the first quarter timing like most other bullion versions? When will a preliminary 2022 Mint product schedule show up?
The bullion versions usually sell for about 10% above spot, -vs- 40%+ for the proofs so they sure are a better deal for precious metal collectors, but the proofs will still have more numismatic value.
@Che_Grapes said:
I just don’t think these coins will ever retain any significant numismatic value - which means they will always trade as bullion on the secondary market. That means you’ll never get 3000 for these coins because ICEs will require less and less Pd as time goes on and transition to EVs. Platinum, on the other hand, is a different story. It is needed in EVs and other green energy and battery uses as well. In my view, Pd is overpriced compared to Pt and a reversion to the mean is coming.
Again, not enough numismatic value to float these over the spot price in the future imho
There are some one ounce silver eagles dated in the 1980's-90's selling for $5,000-$10,000 on Great Collections in MS70. Set collectors can be irrational and will pay whatever it takes to get a coin they want, especially if the supply or availability is limited.
Do not underestimate palladium prices in the future. Hybrids use even more palladium than similar sized gas engine vehicles as pollution standards increase, and because the start/stop of the cooler hybrid engine pollutes more than a steady running hot one, so more palladium in the converters are needed for them. Palladium is also being developed for hydrogen fuel cell catalysts, and some are developing carbon capture systems that will use palladium as well. The future will still need palladium and it is scarce and very expensive to mine.
@cagcrisp said:
Does that mean the bullion dealers have only Nov and Dec to order what they want for 2021?
That would by my assumption.
Will a new 2022 palladium bullion also show up in the first quarter timing like most other bullion versions? When will a preliminary 2022 Mint product schedule show up?
Again...That would be my assumption that 2022 will get the Palladium on the same course as the Platinum.
The bullion versions usually sell for about 10% above spot, -vs- 40%+ for the proofs so they sure are a better deal for precious metal collectors, but the proofs will still have more numismatic value.
The United States Mint sells the Palladium Bullion to the AP's for the LBMA PM fix plus 6.25% so around 10% would be a good deal actually...
So to complete my above discussion on my palladium proof return, I just received confirmation from the Mint returns department that my coin was received and I was issued a $2,900 refund today, so that is 4 weeks from mailing it and basically two weeks from when it was received. Seems pretty good all things considered.
Overall I went with the refund because now I have to get a 2021 MS70 bullion version to keep the set complete.
Too many coins issued in 2021. An extremely expensive year for modern set collectors.
Has anyone else noticed? The price was only $1,900 just 7 days ago. Feeling a bit better about my MS70 bullion purchase a couple months ago. Russia is the largest producer and supply risks vs demand starting to have some impact.
2021 Proof sales 4,858 so far and PCGS only graded 606 PR70's and 610 MS70's. I don't know how many 2021 uncirculated were sold.
Yes, the proofs were extremely expensive from the Mint, but palladium is still needed for hybrid electrics to meet environmental controls and supply is very limited. The MS versions were a pretty good buy.
Comments
I will pass for now. It has around a 45-50% markup at $2900 (changing a lot each day). I will wait. Recently I saw a PF69 of a different year for around $2350. That was of more interest to me.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
4,038 demand as of Sept 19th. My earlier prediction of less than 5,000 sales of the 12,000 planned mintage may not be very far off. Wonder how many of these blanks the Mint bought and struck ahead of time?
It also seems like a lot of 69's being graded proportionally at this point which is a bit unusual, as mint quality was pretty good on these in other years. And this is even with some dealers stating 70 only for grading. Currently 55-70's, 35-69's.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Just how volatile is Palladium?
Between the AM and PM fix on September 23, 2021, the price dropped $104.00.
On a percentage basis there have only been 20 times in the past 25 years that we have seen a Larger percentage drop between the AM and PM fixes for Palladium…
I have noticed that too. I wonder if it has to do with people trying to figure out what will happen as it's main use in autos dries up. I continue to watch graded coins at a few dealers that change their prices continuously as spot moves. Maybe some day I will get one of these.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Anytime you have a market top or a market bottom you have considerable volatility. The market is just trying to determine if this is the bottom of this leg or the top of this leg...
A decline in Palladium prices due to the combustion engine decline is greatly overstated. Palladium prices will Never get as low as some expect...
Down to $1850 today. Looks like Wednesday's repricing will once again bring a lower price.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
There will Not be a Palladium price Decrease tomorrow…
I broke down and bought one after the price drop, but unfortunately it was scratched in the field, so sent it back. One of my $50 gold eagle proof T2's also had a very similar scratch.
These scratches are small, but definite hits, and it is difficult to understand what is causing them. I suspect something related mechanically? to get them into capsules. A lot of 69's and they have been selling for about $2,700 on eBay.
About 4,548 buying demand so far and they no longer qualify for First Strike if purchased now. Price did drop this week to $2,850 and most all platinum and palladium have gone into the limited category.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
GoldMiner, Keep us posted on how long it takes you from the moment you start the return for the palladium coin to the point that you receive a refund. I am intrigued. Sorry to hear it has a scratch.
Very long story. Ordered 9/23/2021, received 9/30/2021, Used Mint website to request a return. It was approved and they provided a return RMA and a post office label to get a refund, as an exchange was was past First Strike date. Mailed 10/01/2021. After sitting in Memphis for several extra days, On Oct 12th it finally said it was "Out for Delivery"
Then received a "delivery exception, not scanned". Oct 13, 14, 15 also still no delivery scan, so I panicked that it may have been lost. Usually with a provided return label (like PCGS does for mechanical errors) you get insurance, but fine print on the Mint website says you should buy insurance on returns because they don't cover for lost mail.
I still don't even know if you can even buy insurance at the Post Office on a preprinted label from the Mint. Also to file a claim you have to have a receipt showing you bought the label, so I figured I may have just lost $2900. So I filed a missing mail search request with USPS on the 15th. Then every day from Oct 15th to the 21st I still received delivery exception notices.
So I sent an email to the Mint explaining all this and asked them if possible to send me another coin, if they could not do a refund, as they can do that if a coin is lost in the mail to you, and they have plenty of these remaining. Figured that was my best hope.
Then at 10PM last night, I get an automated email from USPS that "Search Request Delivered". I look at tracking and magic happens, it says the coin was scanned and delivered to the Mint Return Department in Memphis on time on Oct 12th!, and shows no record of all the other delays anymore.
So it is Sunday 24th now and I have no idea if I will get a coin or a refund, but at least there is proof they got my package. Will wait to see what happens this next week.
PS. I also gave up, and bought an expensive $3995 PR70 FDOI, because I decided to keep my complete set after all. This one might end up being a modern eagle key long term, or at least tough to get in 70 FS, due to quality issues, low demand, and a high price this year:
2017 limit 15,000 sold 15,000
2018 limit 15,000 sold 14,986
2019 limit 30,000 sold 18,581 so far as of Oct 17th report
2020 limit 10,000 sold 9,498 so far as of Oct 17th report
2021 mintage limit 12,000 sold only 4,413 so far as of Oct 17th report
PCGS pop report of 70's:
2017 3,801
2018 5,870
2019 4,050
2020 1,981
2021 only 568 graded 70 so far.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Goldminers, sorry to hear of your long drawn out saga. This is typical of my experience. Like I said in other threads, I am done with returns, particularly high dollar returns, to the Mint.
I hope it turns out well for you!
On 10/11 rec'd an empty OGP & no invoice from the mint for the RP set (21XJ). I have a video of the box opening, the inside brown paper wrapping did not look disturbed and the outside box tape not bad? More signs point to the US Mint vs. USPS issue but it is a crap shoot. Although, I enjoy the craps table much more when we are all playing with a "fair" set of dice. Interesting they say they will refund me but have no interest in viewing any pics or video.
I just don’t think these coins will ever retain any significant numismatic value - which means they will always trade as bullion on the secondary market. That means you’ll never get 3000 for these coins because ICEs will require less and less Pd as time goes on and transition to EVs. Platinum, on the other hand, is a different story. It is needed in EVs and other green energy and battery uses as well. In my view, Pd is overpriced compared to Pt and a reversion to the mean is coming.
Again, not enough numismatic value to float these over the spot price in the future imho
There will be a 2021 Palladium Bullion coin coming in November or December 2021…
Already on Pre-Sale at Monument Metals
I see pre-sales at MM for week of Nov 24th. for the new BU bullion version you mentioned. It is interesting the Mint chose to issue a new 2021 bullion coin in December. Does that mean the bullion dealers have only Nov and Dec to order what they want for 2021?
Will a new 2022 palladium bullion also show up in the first quarter timing like most other bullion versions? When will a preliminary 2022 Mint product schedule show up?
The bullion versions usually sell for about 10% above spot, -vs- 40%+ for the proofs so they sure are a better deal for precious metal collectors, but the proofs will still have more numismatic value.
Thanks for the bullion info.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
There are some one ounce silver eagles dated in the 1980's-90's selling for $5,000-$10,000 on Great Collections in MS70. Set collectors can be irrational and will pay whatever it takes to get a coin they want, especially if the supply or availability is limited.
Do not underestimate palladium prices in the future. Hybrids use even more palladium than similar sized gas engine vehicles as pollution standards increase, and because the start/stop of the cooler hybrid engine pollutes more than a steady running hot one, so more palladium in the converters are needed for them. Palladium is also being developed for hydrogen fuel cell catalysts, and some are developing carbon capture systems that will use palladium as well. The future will still need palladium and it is scarce and very expensive to mine.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Who is “MM” ?
The bullion coins can be minted in 2021 and sold anytime. In fact the numismatic ones have no restrictions on sales outside of those of normal coins
MM is Monument Metals mentioned just above my posts by coiner.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
That would by my assumption.
Again...That would be my assumption that 2022 will get the Palladium on the same course as the Platinum.
The United States Mint sells the Palladium Bullion to the AP's for the LBMA PM fix plus 6.25% so around 10% would be a good deal actually...
So to complete my above discussion on my palladium proof return, I just received confirmation from the Mint returns department that my coin was received and I was issued a $2,900 refund today, so that is 4 weeks from mailing it and basically two weeks from when it was received. Seems pretty good all things considered.
Overall I went with the refund because now I have to get a 2021 MS70 bullion version to keep the set complete.
Too many coins issued in 2021. An extremely expensive year for modern set collectors.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Congratulations Goldminers, from my experience that is lightning quick!
Has anyone else noticed? The price was only $1,900 just 7 days ago. Feeling a bit better about my MS70 bullion purchase a couple months ago. Russia is the largest producer and supply risks vs demand starting to have some impact.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
2021 Proof sales 4,858 so far and PCGS only graded 606 PR70's and 610 MS70's. I don't know how many 2021 uncirculated were sold.
Yes, the proofs were extremely expensive from the Mint, but palladium is still needed for hybrid electrics to meet environmental controls and supply is very limited. The MS versions were a pretty good buy.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526