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MMT -The Shiney New Toy

derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

When theory collides with reality.

Someone please, turn the lights back on.

"Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

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Comments

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More Money Today!

    thefinn
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,198 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Magic Money Tree

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, more inflation please!
    What does they want, deflation?
    Yuck! 🤮

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just remember, there will be a fiscal judgement day.....Logically, it cannot continue unabated. When or how the crash will occur remains to be seen. Cheers, RickO

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2021 11:41AM

    The Fed Keeps Printing "Or The Whole Things Blows Up"

    "Confidence will eventually collapse... At first slowly, and then, all at once..."

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    IRS loves asset inflation almost as much as you do. Maybe more.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As long as it blows up on someone else’s watch, they don’t care - it won’t be their fault. Just ask Herbert Hoover.

    thefinn
  • carew4mecarew4me Posts: 3,459 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    All those bubbles tend to pop while food, gas and energy prices remained inflated afterwards.
    If a brutal reckoning is not in our future then all of economic theory to date is now wrong.


    Loves me some shiny!
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2021 11:40AM

    @jmski52 said:
    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    IRS loves asset inflation almost as much as you do. Maybe more.

    Stepped up cost basis. 🙂🙂🙂

    Besides, capital gains tax rate for most folk is 15%. Would you rather make $1 and give back 15c or make nothing?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think for older folks we have a sense that something is fundamentally wrong even though the government and fed seem to always pull a rabbit out of the hat. For the younger generation this type of deficit spending and debt accumulation may seem normal, and the way politicians toss around discussions of trillion dollar spending bills, with very few sounding the alarm, why would they be alarmed. A "reset" is coming but like Ricko I have no idea what it will look like.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2021 3:24PM

    The assumption that government will fix the economy and increase our standard of living beyond what entrepreneurs can do is unbearably naïve.

    "What they are really saying here is that entrepreneurs, investing their own property for the chance of earning profits, but at the risk of losing everything if consumers dislike their offering, overall do a worse job allocating productive resources than politicians investing deficits that need not be paid off. This is a very problematic assumption. Just noting the different incentives for entrepreneurs and politicians is enough to fundamentally question what MMT proposes."

    Simple: MMT seeks to take the checkbook out of the hands of a self serving special interest group and replace it with a printing press.

    Get gold.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @jmski52 said:
    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    IRS loves asset inflation almost as much as you do. Maybe more.

    Stepped up cost basis. 🙂🙂🙂

    Besides, capital gains tax rate for most folk is 15%. Would you rather make $1 and give back 15c or make nothing?

    Sounds like a New York corner store shakedown. Guido, is that you?

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    capital gains tax rate for most folk is 15%. Would you rather make $1 and give back 15c or make nothing?

    With price levels rising, the imaginary $1 profit doesn't compensate for the increases in prices due to dilution in the value of the dollar, but the 15% tax on those imaginary profits is certainly very real.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2021 6:20PM

    Imaginary?

    Haha.

    Is this another play on alternative facts?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2021 8:12AM

    Is this another play on alternative facts?

    At the risk of repeating myself, $1 profit doesn't compensate for the increases in prices due to dilution in the value of the dollar, but the 15% tax on those imaginary profits is certainly very real

    If you have trouble understanding the dilution effect in the value of the dollar, I can refer you to a website that might be able to better explain it for you.

    https://mises.org/

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2021 8:18AM

    @jmski52 said:

    If you have trouble understanding the dilution effect in the value of the dollar, I can refer you to a website that might be able to better explain it for you.

    https://mises.org/

    You silly rabbit, Keynesians don't read Austrian economics. If he did he would no longer be a Keynesian.

    Austrian vs. Keynesian.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Is this another play on alternative facts?

    At the risk of repeating myself, $1 profit doesn't compensate for the increases in prices due to dilution in the value of the dollar, but the 15% tax on those imaginary profits is certainly very real

    If you have trouble understanding the dilution effect in the value of the dollar, I can refer you to a website that might be able to better explain it for you.

    https://mises.org/

    You seem to have a problem with the concept of profit. But thats to be expected from someone who doesnt even realize their "insurance" protects less than 1/3rd what it did a decade ago.

    Yup, silly rabbit indeed.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2021 1:04AM

    @cohodk said:

    You seem to have a problem with the concept of profit. But thats to be expected from someone who doesnt even realize their "insurance" protects less than 1/3rd what it did a decade ago.

    Keynesian math at it's finest.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    You seem to have a problem with the concept of profit. But thats to be expected from someone who doesnt even realize their "insurance" protects less than 1/3rd what it did a decade ago.

    Keynesian math at it's finest.

    Ignorance epitomized.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Is this another play on alternative facts?

    At the risk of repeating myself, $1 profit doesn't compensate for the increases in prices due to dilution in the value of the dollar, but the 15% tax on those imaginary profits is certainly very real

    Most of the time I have a hard time wrapping my head around the posts and theories here and this is no exception.

    If the 15% tax is real, then how is the 85% remaining profit not just as real. Sure the value of the dollar may be reduced, but that is still a gain in todays dollar. I and most of the ignorant in this world are worried about whether or not my paycheck and gains from the sale of my home or equities will pay my cost of living now. I don't see the value of trying to compare my pay to my great grandfather's .

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the 15% tax is real, then how is the 85% remaining profit not just as real.

    The remaining 85% of any gain is diluted by the issuance of beaucoup fiat dollars that now compete with all of the other dollars that already exist - which drives up the price of everything bought in dollars.

    You are correct in that it becomes a cost of living issue. You don't have to compare your pay to your great grandfather's to see that gas has doubled in a year whereas your pay has likely not doubled.

    Keynesian math at it's finest.

    Keynesians don't math.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My pay is 85% greater than it was 5 years ago. As is my savings and stock accounts. Hell even my gold is up 30%. The only thing holding me down is the gutter. RGDS!!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For the many Americans earning minimum wage there is no promotion or raise opportunity for an 85% increase. When compared to the loss of purchasing power of the currency, their stipend buys less each month. Imagine what they are now going thru as they try to feed their families. Lot's of Publix BOGO's on their list I imagine.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2021 1:53PM

    @bigjpst said:

    @jmski52 said:
    Is this another play on alternative facts?

    At the risk of repeating myself, $1 profit doesn't compensate for the increases in prices due to dilution in the value of the dollar, but the 15% tax on those imaginary profits is certainly very real

    Most of the time I have a hard time wrapping my head around the posts and theories here and this is no exception.

    I nominate this as comment of the year!!

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What used to be purchased on one income moved to needing two incomes. Now it takes two full-time jobs and a side-hustle/gig to make things meet. If that isn't inflation raising its ugly head, I don't know what is.

    thefinn
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2022 5:43AM

    Why was GDP growth so strong in the late 70's? I thought this period was considered "stagflation".

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Calling MMT part of GDP doesn't make any sense to me. Then again, not much they put out these days is real,

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    Absolutely incorrect. People don't want to sell their home or their stocks to pay for fuel at the pump. An increase in assets value is not realized until sold. Folks do care. The rich may not, the Gov't worker may not, but the average Joe does.

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Folks dont care about inflation.

    And I have a bridge in Arizona that I'd sell, cheap.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2022 10:29AM

    @AUandAG said:

    @cohodk said:
    Folks dont care about inflation. Look how much their real estate, stocks and other assets have appreciated.

    An increase in assets value is not realized until sold.

    And if it's an asset that has to be immediately replaced, such as a home, then the result is a net loss after paying selling fees and buying another home at the same inflated prices. The double punch comes when the property taxes on the new home (of assumed equal value) are much higher because they are based on the latest sale price.

    Including a home in one's net value is misleading unless you assume they plan on selling and becoming homeless or moving in with their kids. LOL

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Including a home in one's net value is misleading unless you assume they plan on selling and becoming homeless or moving in with their kids. LOL

    Misleading? So you dont count your house as a valued asset? Your son is very happy your house has doubled in the last 5 years.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2022 4:04PM

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Including a home in one's net value is misleading unless you assume they plan on selling and becoming homeless or moving in with their kids. LOL

    Misleading? So you dont count your house as a valued asset? Your son is very happy your house has doubled in the last 5 years.

    As long as I would have to replace it, my home has no more "value" than it did when I bought it at a third of its current appraisal for the reasons spelled out above. Unlike you my son understands that his future inheritance doubling in value is irrelevant when everything else has done the same thing. Zero sum game. Even at his young age appears his tool shed is much larger than your.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2022 4:25AM

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Including a home in one's net value is misleading unless you assume they plan on selling and becoming homeless or moving in with their kids. LOL

    Misleading? So you dont count your house as a valued asset? Your son is very happy your house has doubled in the last 5 years.

    As long as I would have to replace it, my home has no more "value" than it did when I bought it at a third of its current appraisal for the reasons spelled out above. Unlike you my son understands that his future inheritance doubling in value is irrelevant when everything else has done the same thing. Zero sum game. Even at his young age appears his tool shed is much larger than your.

    Yeah..$1 doubling to $2 is the same as $232k doubling to $463,600.

    Zero sum? Lol. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Haha.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $232k doubling to $463,600

    Gee, here comes the tax assessor next. Funny how that works.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    $232k doubling to $463,600

    Gee, here comes the tax assessor next. Funny how that works.

    Nope.. hes homesteaded. His property taxes have barely changed..

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Including a home in one's net value is misleading unless you assume they plan on selling and becoming homeless or moving in with their kids. LOL

    Misleading? So you dont count your house as a valued asset? Your son is very happy your house has doubled in the last 5 years.

    As long as I would have to replace it, my home has no more "value" than it did when I bought it at a third of its current appraisal for the reasons spelled out above. Unlike you my son understands that his future inheritance doubling in value is irrelevant when everything else has done the same thing. Zero sum game. Even at his young age appears his tool shed is much larger than your.

    Yeah..$1 doubling to $2 is the same as $232k doubling to $463,600.

    Zero sum? Lol. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Haha.

    Wrong. A doubling house value is a net zero game when you replace it with a house that also doubled in price.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2022 7:39AM

    @cohodk said:

    @jmski52 said:
    $232k doubling to $463,600

    Gee, here comes the tax assessor next. Funny how that works.

    Nope.. hes homesteaded. His property taxes have barely changed..

    Wrong again. Property taxes on an existing home are based on its original purchase price plus small increases each year. Property taxes on a newly purchased home are based on its much higher new purchase price and are far higher than those on the existing home, even with their annual increases.

    Try to be right occasionally, your shed is getting smaller.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2022 5:09AM

    Well...heres the taxes on your house....

    My comment about your taxes having barely changed is 100% accurate.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2022 6:43AM

    @cohodk said:
    Well...heres the taxes on your house....

    My comment about your taxes having barely changed is 100% accurate.

    and that is because they are based on my original purchase price in 1995 with small annual increases.

    Your comment on taxes on a house that sells for double the value. . .

    . . . is wrong because homestead has nothing to do with the new taxable value at the time a house is sold. Homestead only affects property taxes AFTER the tax value is established. In the case of a recent sale, as I said, the tax value get's reset based on the most recent sale.

    And you'll note that my 2020 property taxes were based on a home value of just 206,000 while zillow shows it's current value at over 460,000. This proves my earlier point that taxes remain lower on a home if it is not sold.

    Also, try to refrain from doing Google searches on your fellow forum members and then sharing their personal information on the forum. What I found on you would likely be quite embarrassing but I choose not to share it.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2022 7:08AM

    Nope derryb, I never made a comment about you selling your house. And you confirmed that homesteading, as I stated, will not increase your taxes when "the assesor comes along".

    We all know how homesteading works, except for jmski, whom my comment was addressed. The burden of higher taxes is on the new owner, not the present owner.

    Now hopefully jmsk (and whomever agreed with him)i understands.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2022 7:52AM

    I never heard of homesteading except for the mid-1800s. It may be a state law in some states.

    I'm pretty sure that inflation and higher wages translate into a higher income tax burden, given the progressive tax scale that we have.

    I had assumed that the same relationship applies to home ownership, higher home valuations and real estate taxes. I'd like to see the reference for this homesteading thingy.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • taxmadtaxmad Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    I never heard of homesteading except for the mid-1800s. It may be a state law in some states.

    We have it here in Idaho. You can use it on your primary residence. It exempts 50% of the value of your house and land up to $125,000 from property tax. Sadly they didn't index the lid for inflation, so it is worth less and less each year (my assessed value went up $200K last year) and the property tax is shifting from businesses to homeowners as a result.

    For a red state Idaho loves to tax the crap out of its residents...

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    We all know how homesteading works, except for jmski, whom my comment was addressed. The burden of higher taxes is on the new owner, not the present owner.

    And my point was that the higher tax burden is also on the seller because after selling his house that was at a lower property tax rate he has to buy a new home which will put him in the same "new assessment" boat as the person that bought his house.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Homestead exemption is available in Nebraska. Tied in to the value of the home and also the income of the owner. Those on the low end of the spectrum can get entire tax exempted.... and exemption is on a sliding scale that will no longer exempt those who have certain income level and home value. Another requirement... you do have to live in the house.

    ----- kj
  • Mike59Mike59 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2022 6:13AM

    You guys are lucky you dont live in the Garden State of NJ. Highest RE tax in the nation. A new house in a 55 plus development is over $15,000 a year in RE tax. thats why so many people are moving out of the state.

    MIKE B.

  • JWPJWP Posts: 16,469 ✭✭✭✭✭

    USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
    Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    We all know how homesteading works, except for jmski, whom my comment was addressed. The burden of higher taxes is on the new owner, not the present owner.

    And my point was that the higher tax burden is also on the seller because after selling his house that was at a lower property tax rate he has to buy a new home which will put him in the same "new assessment" boat as the person that bought his house.

    Who said you had to buy a new house.....maybe the big guy upstairs cashed in your chips.

    Who said you had to buy a similar house?

    Who said you had to buy in the same neighborhood, or state?

    Who said you had to "buy" anything?

    Stop assuming things.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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