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Going to the Moon? Proof copper and clad Ike on cent and dime planchet

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 6, 2021 10:26AM in U.S. Coin Forum

1972-S Cent and Dime Eisenhower Dollar Mated Pair = NGC PR67 RD CAM and NGC PR67

This mated pair has the Ike reverse moon in copper!

Given that this is a unique combination of two different planchets and the recent success of the 3 dime planchet clover at $105k, where do you think this one will end up?

It's amazing that these exist.

I wonder what @PCGSPhoto would do with this for a TrueView? Has PCGS ever put two different planchets on to the same TrueView?

Does this deserve to be in the 100 Greatest U.S. Error Coins book?

Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,555 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    It is not amazing that these exist. They exist because they were deliberately made by somebody that wanted to sell them for a profit. That's called "Greed!"

    A-Greed. It's amazing there aren't more of them. Maybe a whole set: dime & nickel, nickel and cent, dime and cent, two quarters.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting title on the slab.... "Unique 'penny'/dime..." Slowly creeping into the hobby lexicon... Cheers, RickO

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ricko- it’s extremely unusual for NGC to actually put ‘UNIQUE’ on the insert. Clearly they saw this mated pair as a very special numismatic item.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • MarkKelleyMarkKelley Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just can't get behind these. No way they were made accidentally, and obviously made for profit.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- Yes you are correct. The 3 piece Ike Clover realized 105k in the recent Heritage Auction, and this mated pair is in the Heritage ANA Platinum Night session.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now that is an error I find fascinating. Thanks for sharing. Fun to see things like this here.

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if this was part of the California Abandoned Safety Deposit Box sale a number if years ago. It seems like a lot of "unbelievable" errors came from there.

    There seems to be a number of early 70's proof "errors" like the quarters struck over Barber quarters and 1941 Canadian quarter, so it's not unreasonable to suspect that a midnight minter was involved, IMO

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While I find the item quite impressive at the same time I don’t assign it much value. It’s just a fantasy piece someone at the mint made for whatever reason. Others will value it differently and that’s OK with me. I feel pieces like this are akin to artificial toning. Someone helped it along and it didn’t “just happen” as part of the normal course of time and events.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Byers said:
    Ricko- it’s extremely unusual for NGC to actually put ‘UNIQUE’ on the insert. Clearly they saw this mated pair as a very special numismatic item.

    I think his point was that they used the term penny instead of cent.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,481 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In order to come out like that, someone had to set those planchets in the press by hand.

    No doubt a nice one of a kind error, but of course a "made" one of a kind error, IMHOP.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2021 8:51AM

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    In order to come out like that, someone had to set those planchets in the press by hand.

    It's nice that these planchets were set by hand and obviously a lot more went into aligning these go get a great strike, but are all proof planchets set by hand?

    The US Mint indicates that regular proof coin planchets are "hand-polished" and regular uncirculated coins are "hand-loaded into the coining press". From this I would assume regular proof coins are also "hand-loaded into the coining press". Can anyone confirm if this is true?

    This actually reminds me of Aston Martin and Ferrari cars which are built by hand :)

    https://catalog.usmint.gov/faqs-faqcategory-products-programs/products-programs-coin-design.html

    US Mint wrote:

    Proof Coins: Are the finest quality of coin produced by the United States Mint. The term "proof" refers to the coin's finish. Proof blanks are specially treated, hand-polished, and cleaned to ensure high-quality strikes. The blanks are then fed into presses fitted with specially polished dies and struck at least twice. The coins are then carefully packaged to showcase and preserve their exceptional finish.
    [...]
    Uncirculated Coins: Are hand-loaded into the coining press and struck on specially burnished blanks, yet have a soft, matte-like finish appearance.

    BTW, the someone should tell the Mint cleaning isn't a good thing ;)

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ferengi rule of acquisition number......

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • brocmitchellbrocmitchell Posts: 96 ✭✭✭

    It would be interesting to start a social fund raising effort, buy these, and destroy them! Maybe make it into a mini-web series and use advertising proceeds to reimburse the donors.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- NGC put ‘UNIQUE” on the 3 leaf clover mated Ikes on 3 dimes as well.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,227 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Interesting title on the slab.... "Unique 'penny'/dime..." Slowly creeping into the hobby lexicon... Cheers, RickO

    A bit unprofessional, IMHO.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • MarcOneMarcOne Posts: 13
    edited August 10, 2021 9:23AM

    I have always liked fire engine red copper. This Ike caught my eye. I think because of the color combination and contrast it is much neater than the clover that sold for 105k. But, clovers are ultra special.

    My opinion, this looks like 85K.

    Marc

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2021 11:05PM

    Up to $31,000 / $37,200 with a day to go!

    Can't wait to see what happens. Bet it will be an exciting auction!

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    It is not amazing that these exist. They exist because they were deliberately made by somebody that wanted to sell them for a profit. That's called "Greed!"

    And "Illegal!"

  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Midnight Minter" strikes again.

    These are cool but I feel that these kind of mint "errors" should be labeled as "Fantasy Mint Errors".

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- I am trying to dig out pictures that I took in 1975 of the other 3 leaf clover ( 3 Ike Dollars on Nickel blanks in proof) that I sold to Dr. Berry, which now reside in the ANA Museum.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP said:
    These are cool but I feel that these kind of mint "errors" should be labeled as "Fantasy Mint Errors".

    These kind of "errors" give a bad name to legitimate errors.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 7:46AM

    @MasonG said:

    @coinJP said:
    These are cool but I feel that these kind of mint "errors" should be labeled as "Fantasy Mint Errors".

    These kind of "errors" give a bad name to legitimate errors.

    How do you figure?

    Can you name a legitimate error that got a "bad name" from these?

    To me, it seems like:

    1. these create a lot of excitement for errors, including legitimate ones
    2. are sold for impressive sums, also likely to help other errors
    3. are handled by the top error dealers like @FredWeinberg and @Byers
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP said:
    "Midnight Minter" strikes again.

    These are cool but I feel that these kind of mint "errors" should be labeled as "Fantasy Mint Errors".

    I had a similar discussion with @MrEureka on patterns, where the largest category of patterns are fantasy pieces, aka "pieces de caprice". I wondered they they weren't classified as fantasy coins. It seems like (1) it's too hard to classify consistently and (2) people are generally ok with the status quo. Errors can be in a similar situation.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- ofcourse! Many U.S. pattern coinage certified by PCGS and NGC were fantasy pieces, many struck ‘at midnight’, involving muling different dies and metals, creating two headed and two tailed patterns, mules and orphans, and exotic off-metals.

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    How do you figure?

    1. These fantasy "things" are not errors, they are intentionally created.
    2. Lumping them in with legitimately created errors creates confusion between the two.

    That's how I figure.

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd be more amazed at how these were snuck out of the mint and why wouldn't that be looked upon as theft?

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 8:05AM

    @MasonG said:

    @Zoins said:
    How do you figure?

    1. These fantasy "things" are not errors, they are intentionally created.
    2. Lumping them in with legitimately created errors creates confusion between the two.

    That's how I figure.

    These are reasons, but to me, these specific reasons don't give a "bad name" to the legit ones. If anything, I see these as creating more excitement for errors, including ones created by accident.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 8:27AM

    @Steven59 said:
    I'd be more amazed at how these were snuck out of the mint

    It is curious how these left the mint. More information on that would be exciting.

    why wouldn't that be looked upon as theft?

    I'm not sure. I've never seen the US Mint or Secret Service retrieve these.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    These are reasons, but to me, these specific reasons don't give a "bad name" to the legit ones. If anything, I see these as creating more excitement for errors, including ones created by accident.

    You're welcome to believe that, if you like. I don't.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 8:13AM

    @MasonG said:

    @Zoins said:
    These are reasons, but to me, these specific reasons don't give a "bad name" to the legit ones. If anything, I see these as creating more excitement for errors, including ones created by accident.

    You're welcome to believe that, if you like. I don't.

    Of course, people can believe different things.

    I'm just looking at the evidence of errors being sold, both types.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many U.S. pattern coinage certified by PCGS and NGC were fantasy pieces, many struck ‘at midnight’, involving muling different dies and metals, creating two headed and two tailed patterns, mules and orphans, and exotic off-metals...

    PCGS and NGC do not differentiate patterns that were struck in the normal course of production, with those that are fantasy pieces!!

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A group of Proof errors recently came from a collection that was auctioned by the State of California. The U.S. Secret Service inspected and released this collection to the State of California determining that it was legal to own. The State of California then auctioned the collection and it has been dispersed since the sale.

    This issue has been addressed in the past😉

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Byers said:
    A group of Proof errors recently came from a collection that was auctioned by the State of California. The U.S. Secret Service inspected and released this collection to the State of California determining that it was legal to own. The State of California then auctioned the collection and it has been dispersed since the sale.

    This issue has been addressed in the past😉

    Great info Mike. Sounds like there's no concerns on ownership. Glad the Secret Service was involved! :+1:

  • FranklinHalfAddictFranklinHalfAddict Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Does this deserve to be in the 100 Greatest U.S. Error Coins book?

    No. It’s not an error. That was purposely created.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FranklinHalfAddict-

    With all due respect, there are deliberate error coins that are ranked in Fred’s book, and also in my book.😉

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS and others encapsulating them is one thing, collectors and dealers believing and marketing them as "accidental" happenings is another. why do people continually get sucked in by this stuff. shame, shame, we are better than that. :s

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I for one am surprised that the Secret Service didn't take them when they had the opportunity. Clearly stolen from the mint after carefully arranging them in the dies and striking them.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- this off center PROOF SILVER Ike Dollar also in the Heritage Auction is actually rarer than a proof Ike off-metal:

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 7:45PM

    @keets said:
    PCGS and others encapsulating them is one thing, collectors and dealers believing and marketing them as "accidental" happenings is another. why do people continually get sucked in by this stuff. shame, shame, we are better than that. :s

    People have different opinions on these. Some like them and others don't.

    That being said, I don't think the buyers are being deceived. People paying these prices know what they are buying and are fine with it.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 7:56PM

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    I for one am surprised that the Secret Service didn't take them when they had the opportunity. Clearly stolen from the mint after carefully arranging them in the dies and striking them.

    I'd be curious what their reasoning was. Sometimes they provide written opinions which can be a nice part of history.

    Regardless of how they were created or distributed, it's nice these are in the clear and have approval from the Secret Service.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zions- correct. For fifty years these have been bought and sold openly, just like the intentional fantasy U.S. patterns.😉

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.

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