What situations could lead to gold & silver being used to buy things?

MKUltra24

Let me elaborate my question a bit more here.

I’m curious if there are any situations where society (state, national, global etc.,) would return to using gold & silver in daily transactions rather than cash & credit cards like we do today?

For most of human history people have bought things with silver and gold and sold things for silver and gold but only very recently has the world stopped using them as currency.

I’ve seen these “goldback” notes (this one is 1/20 troy oz) being sold by places like JM Bullion & APMEX and it seems like they would be great if society reverted back to gold & silver.

Although they would need to be priced way cheaper since right now you’d end up paying $4,000/oz to do it that way.

Do you think we’ll ever return to gold & silver as money?

JBK

The world has moved away from this. As far as I know, no country issues circulating coinage with gold or silver in them, or issues currency directly backed by precious metals.

You can always barter with gold or silver in any form. Such transactions would increase if an economy and/or currency were to collapse.

MKUltra24

@JBK said:
The world has moved away from this. As far as I know, no country issues circulating coinage with gold or silver in them, or issues currency directly backed by precious metals.

You can always barter with gold or silver in any form. Such transactions would increase if an economy and/or currency were to collapse.

Oh I know the entire world stopped using gold & silver decades ago.

I’m just curious if there are any situations that would result in our global society returning to a gold & silver currency.

It’s like gold & silver have been used for thousands of years and in the last century we stopped using it but could it ever return?

JBK

Governments like issuing and spending money they don't actually have. You can't do that if you use gold or silver for making or backing money.

ricko

Perhaps if there were a global disaster, on a scale such as wiped out the dinosaurs or larger. If all governments and most of the people were decimated - then, current currencies and systems would be obliterated and survivors would begin with barter and eventually resort to precious metals again. Not a pleasant scenario. Cheers, RickO

Goldenage

None. Not enough people have it for world governments to use it.

TwoSides2aCoin

In some circles, that's the only thing used for trade and bartering. I have a customer who buys silver. I asked if he stacks. He said "some". "I barter( using silver as payment) for goods and services with those who've adopted this metal as real money." ( short answer: Yes, those situations) )

blitzdude

Probably if you go hang out at derbys bunker after the global collapse occurs he will trade ASEs for bags of Cheetos. Rgds!

streeter

Ole derby has a sign on his door.

We retain the right to refuse service to anyone.

jmski52

I’m just curious if there are any situations that would result in our global society returning to a gold & silver currency.

Confidence in gov.com and the currency would have to be pretty close to nonexistent. We seem to be headed in that direction.

TwoSides2aCoin

International travel, baht I digress.

WCC

@jmski52 said:
I’m just curious if there are any situations that would result in our global society returning to a gold & silver currency.

Confidence in gov.com and the currency would have to be pretty close to nonexistent. We seem to be headed in that direction.

It will take more than just this, depending upon where someone lives. In the US, all or at least most of Europe, and a few others at minimum, the government would have lose its power to preserve its money monopoly.

Otherwise, it's temporary or "at the fringe". It won't be accepted for tax payments, most debt repayment, and gold is impractical for most retail transactions.

MKUltra24

@WCC said:

@jmski52 said:
I’m just curious if there are any situations that would result in our global society returning to a gold & silver currency.

Confidence in gov.com and the currency would have to be pretty close to nonexistent. We seem to be headed in that direction.

It will take more than just this, depending upon where someone lives. In the US, all or at least most of Europe, and a few others at minimum, the government would have lose its power to preserve its money monopoly.

Otherwise, it's temporary or "at the fringe". It won't be accepted for tax payments, most debt repayment, and gold is impractical for most retail transactions.

Why are precious metals impractical for retail transactions?

Anything under $200 would be easy to pay for with say 8 1oz silver coins.

Anything over $200 could be paid with a mixture of gold & silver.

If I bought a meal I might pay 1 silver coin.

But if I bought something expensive I might pay one or more gold coins.

Easy Peasy!

PerryHall

If gold and silver coins began to circulate as money, merchants would have to learn how to detect counterfeit coins. In the olden days, merchants would have a counterfeit detector next to the cash register to check any gold and silver coins. These devices are simple balances that check the weight, thicknesses, and diameters of the silver and gold coins.

cohodk

@MKUltra24 said:

@WCC said:

@jmski52 said:
I’m just curious if there are any situations that would result in our global society returning to a gold & silver currency.

Confidence in gov.com and the currency would have to be pretty close to nonexistent. We seem to be headed in that direction.

It will take more than just this, depending upon where someone lives. In the US, all or at least most of Europe, and a few others at minimum, the government would have lose its power to preserve its money monopoly.

Otherwise, it's temporary or "at the fringe". It won't be accepted for tax payments, most debt repayment, and gold is impractical for most retail transactions.

Why are precious metals impractical for retail transactions?

Anything under $200 would be easy to pay for with say 8 1oz silver coins.

Who is to say silver would be worth $25/oz? To the "counter party" it might be valued at $1000 or zero.

CoinHoarder

.

metalmeister

Our World is now using 000's and 111's. ......... But, I can take a brick of silver down to my friendly bullion dealer and get a check to pay bills.

Baley

It would be a very strange world in which gold and silver wrer universally preferred as barter for goods and services instead of cash, check, debit, or credit. So weird and unlikely, it's difficult to imagine, without additional very drastic changes like total anarchy, extreme violence, and intense danger.

Downtown1974

I can’t think of any scenario where PMs would return as a form of payment in everyday commerce. Even in a semi-apocalyptic event.

MKUltra24

@PerryHall said:
If gold and silver coins began to circulate as money, merchants would have to learn how to detect counterfeit coins. In the olden days, merchants would have a counterfeit detector next to the cash register to check any gold and silver coins. These devices are simple balances that check the weight, thicknesses, and diameters of the silver and gold coins.

But if the Ancient Greeks & Romans could do it I’m sure we could too.

In Ancient times counterfeits were frequently made.

Here is an example of the reverse of a fake Julius Caesar denarius made in his day with the copper core showing even though at that time it was supposed to be a high purity silver coin.

derryb

I occasionally buy dollars with my gold and silver, but only when they are on sale.

And I'll likely buy the dollar's replacement with my gold and silver. Currencies self destruct, not silver and gold.

jmski52

It won't be accepted for tax payments, most debt repayment, and gold is impractical for most retail transactions.

It was practical once upon a time. There's no real reason why it wouldn't work as well as it once did. Math still works.

jmski52

Here is an example of the reverse of a fake Julius Caesar denarius made in his day with the copper core showing even though at that time it was supposed to be a high purity silver coin.

When their treasury ran low on silver & gold, the Romans took silver out of their coinage gradually so that cheap metal could be "washed" with thin silver plating because that was the only way to continue funding their military - very similar to what our Treasury Dept has been doing since 1965.

The coin pictured may very well be a genuine Roman issue.

A really good account of Roman coinage history can be found at ArmstrongEconomics.com

cohodk

@jmski52 said:
It won't be accepted for tax payments, most debt repayment, and gold is impractical for most retail transactions.

It was practical once upon a time. There's no real reason why it wouldn't work as well as it once did. Math still works.

Did it really work well hefore?

Overdate

Technology has rendered physical gold and silver obsolete for most everyday transactions, IMO. It is much less convenient than using cash and credit/debit cards. Also, crypto alternatives to government-issued money are starting to gain mainstream acceptance.

Precious metals are still more useful than fiat as a store of value, but less useful as a unit of account or medium of exchange.

alexerca

@blitzdude said:
Probably if you go hang out at derbys bunker after the global collapse occurs he will trade ASEs for bags of Cheetos. Rgds!

I'll trade them now for bags of cheetos! You should have a lot of bags though and I only like the original!

jmski52

Technology has rendered physical gold and silver obsolete for most everyday transactions, IMO. It is much less convenient than using cash and credit/debit cards. Also, crypto alternatives to government-issued money are starting to gain mainstream acceptance.

Precious metals are still more useful than fiat as a store of value, but less useful as a unit of account or medium of exchange.

There's no reason that gold and/or silver on deposit with a bank couldn't be used to back a digital account - in whatever increments that might be needed.

Any alternatives to government-issued fiat, whether metals or crypto - are likely to be banned, heavily-regulated or co-opted by gov.com for political reasons and tax purposes.

The main problem with gold & silver isn't that it is obsolete or impractical - it's that using metals as the basis for a currency would make it impossible for gov.com to deficit spend without exposing the whole pyramid scheme that is our financial system.

Can't have that. Too many bureaucrats, politicians & bankers are on the gravy train.

thefinn

I remember in the late 1970s that there were car dealerships advertising brand new cars for 250 Morgan or Peace Dollars. Cheaper than Ford Model A's in 1931.

SaorAlba

@thefinn said:
I remember in the late 1970s that there were car dealerships advertising brand new cars for 250 Morgan or Peace Dollars. Cheaper than Ford Model A's in 1931.

I remember some service stations were selling gas for a quarter a gallon, provided the quarter was silver. But the Hunt brothers took care of all that with their greed and the subsequent crash in value of silver.

thefinn

@SaorAlba said:

@thefinn said:
I remember in the late 1970s that there were car dealerships advertising brand new cars for 250 Morgan or Peace Dollars. Cheaper than Ford Model A's in 1931.

I remember some service stations were selling gas for a quarter a gallon, provided the quarter was silver. But the Hunt brothers took care of all that with their greed and the subsequent crash in value of silver.

Look a little closer at the history of what happened. The Hunt brothers were just making money on the inflation created by the government (Nixon taking us off the gold standard in 1971). They didn't cause the rise, just tried to profit from it. And since they were so successful, the government had to change the rules to break them and try to keep others from doing the same.

MKUltra24

@jmski52 said:
Here is an example of the reverse of a fake Julius Caesar denarius made in his day with the copper core showing even though at that time it was supposed to be a high purity silver coin.

When their treasury ran low on silver & gold, the Romans took silver out of their coinage gradually so that cheap metal could be "washed" with thin silver plating because that was the only way to continue funding their military - very similar to what our Treasury Dept has been doing since 1965.

The coin pictured may very well be a genuine Roman issue.

A really good account of Roman coinage history can be found at ArmstrongEconomics.com

No it’s not a genuine Roman government issue. I assure you of that.

1). Its a denarius purportedly from the time of Julius Caesar and Caesar never debased the coinage. It wasn’t until Nero that Roman denarii were first debased and it wasn’t until the 3rd century that it got so bad that it was mostly copper with a thin silver wash.

2). The NGC holder it’s in has it labeled clearly as an “ancient forgery”.

However you are right that during the 3rd century under Emperors like Gallienus the actual official coinage of the Roman Empire wasn’t much better than that forgery.

MKUltra24

@Overdate said:
Technology has rendered physical gold and silver obsolete for most everyday transactions, IMO. It is much less convenient than using cash and credit/debit cards. Also, crypto alternatives to government-issued money are starting to gain mainstream acceptance.

Precious metals are still more useful than fiat as a store of value, but less useful as a unit of account or medium of exchange.

Ever heard of an EMP?

All of the stuff you mention relies on computers & electricity. If an EMP or really strong solar flare hit Earth it would fry all of the computers on Earth without radiation hardening.

People would wake up and find all of their crypto gone and everyone’s bank statement would be $0.00.

If you tried to use your debit/credit card none of the credit card or ATM machines would work.

But gold & silver are unaffected by EMPs & solar flares.

Overdate

An EMP would cause a temporary shutdown of computers and electricity, in which case gold and silver coins would temporarily become more useful as a medium of exchange.

So would regular coins and paper money, for that matter. The average person would likely prefer a familiar $20 bill to a one-ounce silver coin with a face value of $1.00. Unlike in the 19th century and earlier, most people haven’t a clue as to how to value gold and silver for the purchase of goods and services.

A permanent loss of electricity would be the end of civilization as we know it, and in that scenario a stockpile of non-perishable food, and a means of defending it, would be a lot more valuable than precious metal coins.

MKUltra24

@Overdate said:
An EMP would cause a temporary shutdown of computers and electricity, in which case gold and silver coins would temporarily become more useful as a medium of exchange.

So would regular coins and paper money, for that matter. The average person would likely prefer a familiar $20 bill to a one-ounce silver coin with a face value of $1.00. Unlike in the 19th century and earlier, most people haven’t a clue as to how to value gold and silver for the purchase of goods and services.

A permanent loss of electricity would be the end of civilization as we know it, and in that scenario a stockpile of non-perishable food, and a means of defending it, would be a lot more valuable than precious metal coins.

Fair enough xD.

That’s true I imagine if someone who knew nothing about Precious Metals saw a 1 gram .999 fine bar they wouldn’t believe it was worth as much as it is.

I’ve showed my brother my 1/10th oz American Gold Eagles and he thought I spent roughly $20 on each rather than the ~$200 actual value.

I guess I shouldn’t consider my silver & gold to be an emergency currency then. 😛

metalmeister

Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

MKUltra24

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

But all the people who say that seem to forget that large silver coins have been divided up for centuries.

The Spanish Dollar was often cut up into 8 “bits”.

If SHTF I imagine American Silver Eagles could be cut up just as easy for smaller transactions.

cohodk

@MKUltra24 said:

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

But all the people who say that seem to forget that large silver coins have been divided up for centuries.

The Spanish Dollar was often cut up into 8 “bits”.

If SHTF I imagine American Silver Eagles could be cut up just as easy for smaller transactions.

Sounds like maybe we should stockpile metal snips and scales then. The new picks and shovels.

JBK

@MKUltra24 said:

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

And because they are recognizable. That is crucially important.

Its easier to explain to someone that pre-1965 coins are silver than it is to explain/convince them that a chunk of an unfamiliar silver coin is real.

Back when "bits" or "pieces" circulated, people knew what the host coin was.

MKUltra24

@JBK said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

And because they are recognizable. That is crucially important.

Its easier to explain to someone that pre-1965 coins are silver than it is to explain/convince them that a chunk of an unfamiliar silver coin is real.

Back when "bits" or "pieces" circulated, people knew what the host coin was.

But what about stuff like American Silver Eagles?

Wouldn’t those be easy to recognize & familiar?

Why not just use those and cut them up for smaller transactions?

JBK

@MKUltra24 said:

@JBK said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

And because they are recognizable. That is crucially important.

Its easier to explain to someone that pre-1965 coins are silver than it is to explain/convince them that a chunk of an unfamiliar silver coin is real.

Back when "bits" or "pieces" circulated, people knew what the host coin was.

But what about stuff like American Silver Eagles?

Wouldn’t those be easy to recognize & familiar?

Why not just use those and cut them up for smaller transactions?

I don't think so. To coin collectors and bullion dealers, yes, but the average person has no experience with them, much less chopped up pieces of them.

cohodk

@JBK said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@JBK said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@metalmeister said:
Silver Quarters and Half's would be the ticket if the SHTC scenario.

Why is that?

I’ve heard lots of people say that Dimes, Quarters and Halves are good because of their size.

And because they are recognizable. That is crucially important.

Its easier to explain to someone that pre-1965 coins are silver than it is to explain/convince them that a chunk of an unfamiliar silver coin is real.

Back when "bits" or "pieces" circulated, people knew what the host coin was.

But what about stuff like American Silver Eagles?

Wouldn’t those be easy to recognize & familiar?

Why not just use those and cut them up for smaller transactions?

I don't think so. To coin collectors and bullion dealers, yes, but the average person has no experience with them, much less chopped up pieces of them.

And they only say $1 on the back. Might have some difficulty convincing a counterparty otherwise.

Unknown

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Baley

Pretty much anything you can find at 7-11 would be better in a shtf barter situation than coins, no matter what the coins are made of.

Cigarettes, gum, mints, candies, chips, batteries, tampons, bic lighters and razors, chapstick, canned food, packs of ramen, little flashlights, band aids, any kind of soap and sanitizer, any kind of makeup, and any kind of alcoholic beverages, any coffee and caffeine pills and any kind of otc medication, anything small and useful is better than coins. I know many stackers fantasize about being king of the apocalypse with their piles of gold and silver, but the sad truth is that someone stronger or quicker on the draw will simply take it away from you.

Unknown

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MKUltra24

@BadWithMoney said:

@MKUltra24 said:
For most of human history people have bought things with silver and gold and sold things for silver and gold but only very recently has the world stopped using them as currency.

Did average people really do this for most of human history? Maybe copper and bronze. Probably a lot of barter going on in stable societies way back when, even when they had coins.

I guess I should’ve added that I meant recorded human history :P

MKUltra24

@Baley said:
Pretty much anything you can find at 7-11 would be better in a shtf barter situation than coins, no matter what the coins are made of.

Cigarettes, gum, mints, candies, chips, batteries, tampons, bic lighters and razors, chapstick, canned food, packs of ramen, little flashlights, band aids, any kind of soap and sanitizer, any kind of makeup, and any kind of alcoholic beverages, any coffee and caffeine pills and any kind of otc medication, anything small and useful is better than coins. I know many stackers fantasize about being king of the apocalypse with their piles of gold and silver, but the sad truth is that someone stronger or quicker on the draw will simply take it away from you.

That’s why you bury it

I think gold & silver are a way to store wealth safely.

Apparently in Venezuela, due to hyperinflation, an ounce of silver will feed a person for 3-4 months and an ounce of gold will buy a house.

PMs to me are a way to have something of value no matter how chaotic the economy gets.

blitzdude

@MKUltra24 said:

@Baley said:
Pretty much anything you can find at 7-11 would be better in a shtf barter situation than coins, no matter what the coins are made of.

Cigarettes, gum, mints, candies, chips, batteries, tampons, bic lighters and razors, chapstick, canned food, packs of ramen, little flashlights, band aids, any kind of soap and sanitizer, any kind of makeup, and any kind of alcoholic beverages, any coffee and caffeine pills and any kind of otc medication, anything small and useful is better than coins. I know many stackers fantasize about being king of the apocalypse with their piles of gold and silver, but the sad truth is that someone stronger or quicker on the draw will simply take it away from you.

That’s why you bury it

I think gold & silver are a way to store wealth safely.

Apparently in Venezuela, due to hyperinflation, an ounce of silver will feed a person for 3-4 months and an ounce of gold will buy a house.

PMs to me are a way to have something of value no matter how chaotic the economy gets.

Lay off the zero hedge. No houses are being bought in Venezuela for an ounce of gold nor is an ounce of silver feeding a person for 3-4 months unless perhaps they are an anorexic living off top ramen. lol

Unknown

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Kliao

@MKUltra24 said:
Apparently in Venezuela, due to hyperinflation, an ounce of silver will feed a person for 3-4 months and an ounce of gold will buy a house.

But can you find anyone to accept an ounce of gold for a house? An ounce of gold may be worth a house but you'll have to turn that gold into cash before buying that house.

MKUltra24

@blitzdude said:

@MKUltra24 said:

@Baley said:
Pretty much anything you can find at 7-11 would be better in a shtf barter situation than coins, no matter what the coins are made of.

Cigarettes, gum, mints, candies, chips, batteries, tampons, bic lighters and razors, chapstick, canned food, packs of ramen, little flashlights, band aids, any kind of soap and sanitizer, any kind of makeup, and any kind of alcoholic beverages, any coffee and caffeine pills and any kind of otc medication, anything small and useful is better than coins. I know many stackers fantasize about being king of the apocalypse with their piles of gold and silver, but the sad truth is that someone stronger or quicker on the draw will simply take it away from you.

That’s why you bury it

I think gold & silver are a way to store wealth safely.

Apparently in Venezuela, due to hyperinflation, an ounce of silver will feed a person for 3-4 months and an ounce of gold will buy a house.

PMs to me are a way to have something of value no matter how chaotic the economy gets.

Lay off the zero hedge. No houses are being bought in Venezuela for an ounce of gold nor is an ounce of silver feeding a person for 3-4 months unless perhaps they are an anorexic living off top ramen. lol

Just going off what I’ve read.

MKUltra24

Oops my post went through twice for some reason. O_o