What is the Albany Church Penny, really?

MrEureka

I've read a number of conjectural explanations of these pieces, none of which I find especially logical.

Here's what we actually know:

First, from the Church's own records, "It was resolved that one thousand coppers be stamped church penny, and placed in the hands of the treasurer, for the purpose of exchanging with the congregation at the rate of twelve for one shilling, in order to add respect to the weekly collections." (J. McClusky Blayney, History of the First Presbyterian Church of Albany, NY.; Lists of its Officers, and a Complete Catalogue of its Members From its Organization, Albany: Jenkins and Johnston, 1877)

Second, from an inspection of the coins, all were struck on blank planchets or (as far as I know) sub-par copper coins.

To me, the most likely explanation is that the Church had a supply of blank, slick and otherwise sub-par and unusable coppers that had been left in their collection plates over the years, and they came up with the scheme to countermark them and sell them to their wealthier parishioners. (Perhaps even at a modest discount. LOL) The buyers would then run about town spending the coins, saying that the coins had been revalidated by the church. And the scheme probably worked.

Pure speculation based on the known facts. Please feel free to try to poke holes in my story or come up with a better one!

ricko

I did not know about these 'church pennies'...but raised and living just 45 miles south of Albany, I will look for one to add to my collection. Cheers, RickO

jesbroken

Too much money in my opinion. Probably why I have never heard of one.
Jim

MrEureka

@jesbroken said:
Too much money in my opinion. Probably why I have never heard of one.
Jim

I used to think they were too expensive and never especially cared to own one. But now that I'm thinking that they were struck to circulate as money, I'm tempted.

291fifth

Hmmmm? Maybe we can find a similar fate for all those corroded Lincoln cents we see on this forum!

SaorAlba

They also printed up small denomination paper money - but if they were selling them to their wealthier parishioners to spend around town - what was the church getting in return?

StrikeOutXXX

@SaorAlba said:
They also printed up small denomination paper money - but if they were selling them to their wealthier parishioners to spend around town - what was the church getting in return?

From:
https://books.google.com/books?id=FHA3AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA30&lpg=RA1-PA30&dq=john+woodworth+reminiscence+of+troy+albany+penny&source=bl&ots=jBdiGdREXU&sig=ACfU3U1rWqNiPqCFWVaCNl3Sr2tEvVIX3g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw6Z6M2-jxAhWfD1kFHZzIDpsQ6AEwAnoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q="Church Penny"&f=false

sellitstore

The church was getting good money instead of lightweight or unusable copper, so prevalent in circulation around 1790. Yes, I agree that the church may have had these worthless coppers around and struck them (or had them struck), but I'm not sure that they were intended to circulate, although they might have. I'd look for contemporary newspaper accounts of their use.

I think that this was a token to be used in weekly collections, sold to the parishioners for a good silver shilling, a twelve week donation supply. That was always my understanding of the purpose of this coin and the account from the church seems to confirm this.

There were both church and municipal scrip issues in upstate NY at the time because good (full weight) small denomination coins didn't exist and only subpar coins were in circulation. I always presumed that the 1790s NY church scrip from several churches circulated within the community, so it's quite possible that the Albany Church Penny did, too.

The paper scrip illustrated above comes from half a dozen different upstate NY churches, often sells for $300-$750 per example and is quite rare with perhaps 5-10 each known of the more common (R6) issues. The rare ones (R7) have 1-5 known. Each church generally issued 3-4 denominations, so a complete set would be about 18-24 notes and would be quite a challenge to complete. Now that's an advanced set that I'll bet none of you have ever considered.

https://currency.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231+56+1182+2634&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=church&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316

Jimnight

I never heard of or seen an Albany Church Penny. Interesting.

TwoSides2aCoin

I can see the church selling to the more affluent parishioners. I can also envision them same parishioners giving to the needy parishioners of the congregation as merchant tokens to use as discounts in commerce. Makes church cents to me.

BillJones

The new Red Book prices it at $10,000 in VG. It’s not worth that from the historical perspective, in my opinion, so others can fight over it. My response is, I am not interested.

MrEureka

@sellitstore said:

I think that this was a token to be used in weekly collections, sold to the parishioners for a good silver shilling, a twelve week donation supply. That was always my understanding of the purpose of this coin and the account from the church seems to confirm this.

However scarce copper coins were, wouldn't silver shillings have been far scarcer?

MrEureka

@SaorAlba said:
They also printed up small denomination paper money - but if they were selling them to their wealthier parishioners to spend around town - what was the church getting in return?

The church got an interest-free loan. And to whatever extent the notes weren't redeemed, free money.

MrEureka

@BillJones said:
The new Red Book prices it at $10,000 in VG. It’s not worth that from the historical perspective, in my opinion, so others can fight over it. My response is, I am not interested.

You might find it interesting that Alexander Hamilton attended the church at that time. (So did Aaron Burr and John Jay.) I would not be surprised if the entire scheme was his idea, and he probably bought more than his fair share of the tokens.

tcollects

@MrEureka said:

@BillJones said:
The new Red Book prices it at $10,000 in VG. It’s not worth that from the historical perspective, in my opinion, so others can fight over it. My response is, I am not interested.

You might find it interesting that Alexander Hamilton attended the church at that time. (So did Aaron Burr and John Jay.) I would not be surprised if the entire scheme was his idea, and he probably bought more than his fair share of the tokens.

I always thought of these as the communion token that made it into the redbook but I guess you're saying it's not a communion token because it was meant to circulate as money?

Justacommeman

They are a 100 on the cool factor scale. Agre has a great example

m

StrikeOutXXX

Here is a clip of an article from the Schenectady Gazette - Sep 8, 1986.

Probably conjecture, and I'm sure if Roger were still around, he'd say "Bologna" without a source, but the article suggests a driving force was they were: "Eager to stem the flow of worn-out, obscure or counterfeit coins that parishioners were putting into the collection plate".

Also interesting is "...as the coins were returned through the collection, the church sold them again".

So... One might look at these as the first Chuck-E-Cheese tokens. Except - instead of using your token you bought with real money for a game/amusement, you used it for your weekly tithe.

johnny9434

@Justacommeman said:
There are a 100 on the cool factor scale. Agre has a great example

m

I've seen a few of these that he has had

MrEureka

@StrikeOutXXX said:
Here is a clip of an article from the Schenectady Gazette - Sep 8, 1986.

Probably conjecture, and I'm sure if Roger were still around, he'd say "Bologna" without a source, but the article suggests a driving force was they were: "Eager to stem the flow of worn-out, obscure or counterfeit coins that parishioners were putting into the collection plate".

Also interesting is "...as the coins were returned through the collection, the church sold them again".

So... One might look at these as the first Chuck-E-Cheese tokens. Except - instead of using your token you bought with real money for a game/amusement, you used it for your weekly tithe.

Bologna! The author of that 1986 article was almost certainly repeating what he read in some modern coin catalog.

rhedden

What is the Albany church penny? Well, now that I live near Albany, it's something I hope my metal detector coil passes over!

jmlanzaf

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I can see the church selling to the more affluent parishioners. I can also envision them same parishioners giving to the needy parishioners of the congregation as merchant tokens to use as discounts in commerce. Makes church cents to me.

Why would local merchants accept underweight cents that are not redeemable or transferable.

MrEureka

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I can see the church selling to the more affluent parishioners. I can also envision them same parishioners giving to the needy parishioners of the congregation as merchant tokens to use as discounts in commerce. Makes church cents to me.

Why would local merchants accept underweight cents that are not redeemable or transferable.

Three reasons:

1. To support the church.
2. Peer pressure.
3. Even if others refused to take it, it could be left in the collection plate with a clear conscience.

StrikeOutXXX

@MrEureka said:
Bologna! The author of that 1986 article was almost certainly repeating what he read in some modern coin catalog.

That Church history shows its origins included a large number of Scottish.

This article states: "Church officials recently donated to the Institute a 1790 church penny. The church forged 1,000 of the coppers and each member was given four to be used as "communion tokens" in a long-held Scottish tradition."

https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blessed-with-history-Albany-church-keeps-looking-4222121.php

I'm sure you read all the links out there on the Internet - it looks like 10-15 years ago there was a research push with some statements from the church presented.

Here:
https://nnpdev.wustl.edu/library/periodical/14869
and a follow-up
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/periodical/14929

The 1st article links to:
https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v10n02a18.html
"The Rev. Glenn Leupold, co-pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, said the penny functioned as sort of a church offering gift certificate."

Personally... I don't think they were made with the intent to circulate as money outside the church, although given the time they were in-use, they likely did here and there, especially if there was a shortage of minor coins.

jmlanzaf

@MrEureka said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I can see the church selling to the more affluent parishioners. I can also envision them same parishioners giving to the needy parishioners of the congregation as merchant tokens to use as discounts in commerce. Makes church cents to me.

Why would local merchants accept underweight cents that are not redeemable or transferable.

Three reasons:

1. To support the church.
2. Peer pressure.
3. Even if others refused to take it, it could be left in the collection plate with a clear conscience.

Maybe, but that assumes the merchant belongs to the church. I think the idea of it being a token for use in the church alone actually makes more sense.

MrEureka

@StrikeOutXXX said:

@MrEureka said:
Bologna! The author of that 1986 article was almost certainly repeating what he read in some modern coin catalog.

That Church history shows its origins included a large number of Scottish.

This article states: "Church officials recently donated to the Institute a 1790 church penny. The church forged 1,000 of the coppers and each member was given four to be used as "communion tokens" in a long-held Scottish tradition."

Interesting. The church records referenced in the OP says the tokens were to be sold, but perhaps others were given away at some point.

Also, a thought. How unusual would it be for a communion token to be called a penny?

StrikeOutXXX

@MrEureka said:
Interesting. The church records referenced in the OP says the tokens were to be sold, but perhaps others were given away at some point.

Also, a thought. How unusual would it be for a communion token to be called a penny?

I have no doubt the 1000 were made with the intent in the OP - to sell to the church members for a Shilling to have minor coinage on hand for tithing. It does seem logical though that it was necessitated by various reasons speculated - worthless, counterfeit, slick or unusable, or simply lack of minor coinage available.

I can't find any other communion tokens with "Penny" on it - in fact, the vast majority are nothing like the Church Penny, so I don't think they were intended to be traditional Communion Tokens, that article simply said 4 were given to members to be used a communion tokens.

Perhaps in 1790, before the US started using decimal coinage, British Money was still somewhat the standard, so using "Penny" seemed logical. Once the US did go to the dollar, a British Shilling was worth 24 US Cents. So basically, by selling the Church Penny at 12 for a Shilling, they were valuing them at two cents each. In the 1790's the average wage was $65 a year or $1.25 a week. A 10% tithe would be 12.5 cents a week to the church. Not sure how many they were expected to use a week or per family though. (Had to edit that last sentence, math not my strong suit lol)

Your post simply asked us what is the Church Penny really. I guess my only answer is it's fascinating. We may never now the exact original intention but it likely fulfilled several needs and functions for the church, which feasibly bled outside the church on occasion.

kaz

Quoting from the description of an AU50 example currently offered on the CRO website, "The meaning of the additional letter D on this type is unknown today, though some have theorized that it symbolized Denarium (Latin for penny) for the benefit of the largely illiterate congregation.
Most were struck over old, worn out coppers, and this one is no exception, bearing the discernible undertype of a circa 1690 British William and Mary Halfpenny, with portions of the host coin’s obverse legend GVLIELMVS (the Latinate William) visible at 3 o’clock on the obverse."

My understanding is that "small change" was in short supply at the time, so this filled that need. At the same time, it allowed people of modest means to put a coin with that satisfying "clink" in the collection plate every Sunday, showing their support for the church and avoiding the embarrassment of passing the plate by with no contribution.

As to their possible use in the community for general commerce, who knows?   Although, we could speculate about the consequences of a parishioner using these to purchase some ale or cider at the local publick house!

jmlanzaf

@kaz said:
Quoting from the description of an AU50 example currently offered on the CRO website, "The meaning of the additional letter D on this type is unknown today, though some have theorized that it symbolized Denarium (Latin for penny) for the benefit of the largely illiterate congregation.
Most were struck over old, worn out coppers, and this one is no exception, bearing the discernible undertype of a circa 1690 British William and Mary Halfpenny, with portions of the host coin’s obverse legend GVLIELMVS (the Latinate William) visible at 3 o’clock on the obverse."

My understanding is that "small change" was in short supply at the time, so this filled that need. At the same time, it allowed people of modest means to put a coin with that satisfying "clink" in the collection plate every Sunday, showing their support for the church and avoiding the embarrassment of passing the plate by with no contribution.

As to their possible use in the community for general commerce, who knows?   Although, we could speculate about the consequences of a parishioner using these to purchase some ale or cider at the local publick house!

The British abbreviated cent with a D.

Nic

Great thread!

What is a Bar Cent really?

ScarsdaleCoin

Always liked the piece but for whatever reason it reminds me of SNL Church Lady

coinkat

I was influenced by the prior post...

It looks as if it pre-dates New York Governors Al Smith and Franklin Roosevelt... and even TR

sellitstore

@MrEureka said:

@sellitstore said:

I think that this was a token to be used in weekly collections, sold to the parishioners for a good silver shilling, a twelve week donation supply. That was always my understanding of the purpose of this coin and the account from the church seems to confirm this.

However scarce copper coins were, wouldn't silver shillings have been far scarcer?

Yes, probably true, but Spanish colonial silver was fairly available and probably what the wealthy used most often. My guess is that the church was trying to turn a large pile of worn copper of no value into a smaller pile of worn Spanish silver of some value.

CaptHenway

There is something to be said for the theory that the tokens were meant to allow the user to be seen putting something in the collection plate, regardless of how the real support was rendered unto God. During my first marriage my wife and I attended church regularly and I would just toss a $20 into the envelope. After our pastor emeritus lost the bank deposit one week, I started paying by check. Eventually I just wrote one check on the first Sunday for the number of Sundays that month, but it always felt odd not putting anything in the basket on the other Sundays.

CaptHenway

We had one piece come through ANACS in my time. There were traces of an under strike I thought looked like something from the early pages of the Charlton catalogue of the day, but I’m pretty sure we ended up No Decisioning it.

MrEureka

@Nic said:
Great thread!

What is a Bar Cent really?

Good question! There is at least one contemporary (1785) account of the pieces being spotted as "new in circulation" in New York. They are believed to have been made in England for export to the US. There was nothing official about them, and there is no evidence to indicate that the manufacturer was looking for a coinage contract with the government. My best guess is that they were custom ordered by a single American merchant looking to turn a profit by putting the coins into circulation. And based on the rarity of the pieces and the non-existence of heavily circulated specimens, I would guess that the merchant did not place a second order.

Nic

My best guess is an English token copied off a colonial soldier button?

DCW

@Nic said:
My best guess is an English token copied off a colonial soldier button?

This explanation has been generally accepted for many, many years.

Nic

@DCW said:
This explanation has been generally accepted for many, many years.

Yes. And the size of a half cent so a merchant could possibly turn a profit as Andy states. Still labelled as a cent by PCGS based on tradition alone it seems. Sorry for being Captain Obvious. The issue has interested me since owning a copy as a teen.