@ColonelJessup said:
I am disappointed that my expectations are so low that I'm not surprised that only one other reader of this thread agreed
More or less disappointed than recognizing that some people think they can grade from photos?
Hot take time; It is possible to grade some coins from images. You just need consistent technique and quality, and then a lot of practice grading from those images to get a feel for how the imaging relates to the grades. It'll never be as good as having it in hand, but you can get to within a point of the actual grade 60%+ of the time.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@ColonelJessup said:
I am disappointed that my expectations are so low that I'm not surprised that only one other reader of this thread agreed
More or less disappointed than recognizing that some people think they can grade from photos?
"I feel very strongly both ways". It's one of those situations where I might I light up a doobie and smugly mutter "I told you so". to both choices.
"I feel very strongly both ways". Billy Martin's punchline conciliation attempt, from a light beer commercial in the 80's, in an debate with an increasingly querulous George Steinbrenner about "More flavor!" or "More Taste!"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
I am disappointed that my expectations are so low that I'm not surprised that only one other reader of this thread agreed
More or less disappointed than recognizing that some people think they can grade from photos?
Hot take time; It is possible to grade some coins from images. You just need consistent technique and quality, and then a lot of practice grading from those images to get a feel for how the imaging relates to the grades. It'll never be as good as having it in hand, but you can get to within a point of the actual grade 60%+ of the time.
"And the one-eyed undertaker blows his futile horn"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@homerunhall said:
We have just posted the the grades and scores for the two higest scorers in the grading World Series. The info is on the PCGS home page in the already posted World Series of Grading article. Check it out, it's very interesting.
Note that Slater scored 77 out of 100 and Napolitano scored 75. I have some comments about that, i.e. "Why didn't anyone even get a 'B' or 80%."
For pre-1965 coins PCGS graders agree with the final PCGS grade about 75% of the time. In other words, PCGS graders are "wrong" 25% of the time. So those 25% (or more) of the coins will typically have 3 graders and an example would be one grader at MS66, one grader at MS65, and one grader at MS65. That example coin would then be sealed in a PCGS holder, and then checked for grade again by our verifier, usually PCGS Director of Grading Ron Howard. The coin would then go out as a MS65.
That's how grading works, graders at the highest skill level agree with the PCGS final grade about 75% of the time. That's why we use more than one grader and the consensus method for finalizing the grade...and then a second verification check in the holder as another step to insure quality.
Bottom line...coin grading is not easy. Experts disagree. The PCGS grade is a consensus opinion.
This has been interesting and fun. Hope everyone is enjoying this. Take the test if you have the time and are in the right place. It will be eye-opening and well worth your while.
David
Seems like the professionals agree about 75% of the time with the coins in hand so I'd say 60% is pretty solid for a non-professional grader working from pictures.
Old information, but I'd bet the average is fairly consistent over time.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@ColonelJessup said:
I am disappointed that my expectations are so low that I'm not surprised that only one other reader of this thread agreed
More or less disappointed than recognizing that some people think they can grade from photos?
I don't think it's a matter that some people think they can grade from photographs but rather when a photograph is posted and someone ask for opinions on a grade we do the best we can with suggesting a grade knowing the limitations of grading from a photograph. At times there are obvious flaws in a coin that come through very clearly in a photograph. At other times flaws are hidden depending on the lighting and viewing angle. Sometimes it's easy to say what a coin is not (major dings in focal areas keeping a coin from receiving a lofty 67+ grade) rather than pinning down a 63 versus 64.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@ColonelJessup introduced me to Dave McCarthy of Kagins who is attending the FUN Show presently.
We had a nice chat about the restoration processes he employed on the Saddle Ridge coins. Interesting to hear more of the backstory about the finders - their realization that after cleaning several dozen, that they may actually be doing damage to them! - Ha! - Mine is a prime example.
He said that he's seen some of the coins that are now toning beautifully - from the rust exposure! Little likelihood of that happening to mine, however.
A very nice and accommodating fellow!
The issues I have are more with how the sale was conducted - coin presentation and descriptions.
Chanced across the article linked below about PCGS photographing the coins.
Photographing The Hoard - By Phil Arnold - March 11, 2014
@rip_f ,can you tell if your coin has changed compared to the correct TrueView?
From the photos in the first post, I'm not picking up obvious changes.
.
Thanks for the link to the article. I truly enjoy discovering all aspects of the processes involved. These details make me even more pleased that I acquired this piece of coin history.
To your question -
If a TrueView picture of the coin were taken today, it would reveal rust stains in all the same locations as in the original correct TrueView – just more muted, as a result of the conservation efforts applied prior to slabbing.
But they are not as muted as they were when I received the coin in 2014. So the coin is evolving in the slab. The stains are subtly but perceptibly re-emerging. ( except for the spot in the hair and most of the reverse )
As @ColonelJessup said earlier “The more frost on a coin, the more original surface of any kind, the more effective conservation will be.“ Since the reverse was not as harshly cleaned as the obverse, it had more original surface and allowed the conservation to be more effective. (and lasting)
I can tilt the coin in hand in room lighting and it can appear as a nice problem free AU double eagle. Or it can be made to display the now faded staining. I did the same in the OP photos, but as most collectors tend to do, they usually only save the most appealing pictures of their coins.
Comments
Hot take time; It is possible to grade some coins from images. You just need consistent technique and quality, and then a lot of practice grading from those images to get a feel for how the imaging relates to the grades. It'll never be as good as having it in hand, but you can get to within a point of the actual grade 60%+ of the time.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
"I feel very strongly both ways". It's one of those situations where I might I light up a doobie and smugly mutter "I told you so". to both choices.
"I feel very strongly both ways". Billy Martin's punchline conciliation attempt, from a light beer commercial in the 80's, in an debate with an increasingly querulous George Steinbrenner about "More flavor!" or "More Taste!"
Getting to within a point a little over half the time isn't grading, it's guessing.
"And the one-eyed undertaker blows his futile horn"
Based on coins I crack and resubmit, it's grading.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Ok- call it grading if you like. Most people would prefer to get it right better than 60% of the time, but as long as you're happy...
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/252404/slater-and-napolitanos-grades-and-comments
Seems like the professionals agree about 75% of the time with the coins in hand so I'd say 60% is pretty solid for a non-professional grader working from pictures.
Old information, but I'd bet the average is fairly consistent over time.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I don't think it's a matter that some people think they can grade from photographs but rather when a photograph is posted and someone ask for opinions on a grade we do the best we can with suggesting a grade knowing the limitations of grading from a photograph. At times there are obvious flaws in a coin that come through very clearly in a photograph. At other times flaws are hidden depending on the lighting and viewing angle. Sometimes it's easy to say what a coin is not (major dings in focal areas keeping a coin from receiving a lofty 67+ grade) rather than pinning down a 63 versus 64.
@ColonelJessup introduced me to Dave McCarthy of Kagins who is attending the FUN Show presently.
We had a nice chat about the restoration processes he employed on the Saddle Ridge coins. Interesting to hear more of the backstory about the finders - their realization that after cleaning several dozen, that they may actually be doing damage to them! - Ha! - Mine is a prime example.
He said that he's seen some of the coins that are now toning beautifully - from the rust exposure! Little likelihood of that happening to mine, however.
A very nice and accommodating fellow!
The issues I have are more with how the sale was conducted - coin presentation and descriptions.
Chanced across the article linked below about PCGS photographing the coins.
Photographing The Hoard - By Phil Arnold - March 11, 2014
https://pcgs.com/news/photographing-the-hoard
.
.
@rip_f ,can you tell if your coin has changed compared to the correct TrueView?
From the photos in the first post, I'm not picking up obvious changes.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
.
Thanks for the link to the article. I truly enjoy discovering all aspects of the processes involved. These details make me even more pleased that I acquired this piece of coin history.
To your question -
If a TrueView picture of the coin were taken today, it would reveal rust stains in all the same locations as in the original correct TrueView – just more muted, as a result of the conservation efforts applied prior to slabbing.
But they are not as muted as they were when I received the coin in 2014. So the coin is evolving in the slab. The stains are subtly but perceptibly re-emerging. ( except for the spot in the hair and most of the reverse )
As @ColonelJessup said earlier “The more frost on a coin, the more original surface of any kind, the more effective conservation will be.“ Since the reverse was not as harshly cleaned as the obverse, it had more original surface and allowed the conservation to be more effective. (and lasting)
I can tilt the coin in hand in room lighting and it can appear as a nice problem free AU double eagle. Or it can be made to display the now faded staining. I did the same in the OP photos, but as most collectors tend to do, they usually only save the most appealing pictures of their coins.
I really like this discussion.
I once again feel that I learned something new today.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...