09S-VDB What Do Others Here Think About This Coin?
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
(_35 discussions, 2 total train wrecks, I'm wanting to avoid a 3r_d)
Best I can do with online images.
Mint Mark Location looks to be either Die #2 or Die #3
VDB????
No! I'm not looking to purchase this coin.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
1
Comments
No picture
IMO it is an altered coin.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I think it is fake....Do not like the position of the period after D.... ICBW.... Will see what others say. Cheers, RickO
I was editing them in as you were typing
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Genuine 1909 VDB with an added S mintmark.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So, your take is at present its looks to be (likely) a Philly Minted "VDB"
I tried to zoom in closer on the mint mark to gain a better view of the upper serif but the image got a bit to grainy.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I am no expert on these as i think 09 s vdb are way overrated, but doesnt that v d b on the rev seem to strong and bold????
That’s my thought, too, though I’d add “cleaned” to the description.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I sent a friendly request to the seller for close ups of the VDB.
Seller was quick with a very polite response and an additional photo.
Problem is, I am having a hard time copying it from the system I will try another way.
Edited to add: I am unable to copy the photo, it wants to copy the whole message link.
I asked the seller to post the additional photo to the listing.
I've gotten a fair amount of heat for stating ebay, seller, or adding links without complete and TOTAL evidence!
I on purpose left all that out of my title post. I choose and cropped the images in a way to avoid the source as much as possible until the evidence was conclusive.
I very much appreciate everyone's input on the aspects of genuine, altered, or counterfeit.
Seeing how I on purpose didn't use a title picture of the coin I was hoping to avoid others digging (searching) to find the source.
This was my last option I had for being able to post these on the forum, if it don't work then I have no other way to list them here.
I was only going to expose the source if the evidence came back conclusive.
I'm afraid this thread is heading for a 3rd strike train wreck.
Thank you for your input and your time, I'll take a deep breath, they're a few on here that search out anyone who discredits, disrespects any ebay seller unless there is stacked and filed evidence against the coin, or the seller!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
"I've gotten a fair amount of heat for stating ebay, seller, or adding links without complete and TOTAL evidence!"
Ooops! My bad! I have edited it, not that it matters much, many of the sharp folks here will find it anyway.
The seller is open to ending the listing if someone can show them why.
I see some questions with the coin that would raise an eyebrow but I am not 100% sure it is not circulation, PMD or strike issues.
Perfect!
Thank you Mark!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Here is an additional photo.
Thank's for the edit!
I'm trying to keep peace with as many here as possible, all the while exposing the fakes, counterfeits, & altered Lincoln's as I can. I'm working to learn enough to be able to pot them anywhere I may be, like flea markets and estate sales, I don't mean to be vindictive towards any one web site or person. If I spot a obvious Philly Mint VDB on the reverse of an 09SVDB I feel safe in calling it out where every I'm at, I now want to work on being able to spot the correct different mint mark location and die chi markers on these Lincoln cents.
I mean for these discussions to be educational to anyone that may stumble across them as they become archived.
Its my intent to contribute in some way to the distribution fake/counterfeit/altered Lincoln cents.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
>
What if a person considering selling one of these with a questionable Philly Style VDB had this picture if it would help?
Notice the height difference of the period following the "V" between the P & S mints!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I think you are somewhat misunderstanding the constructive criticism.
"I'm trying to keep peace with as many here as possible, all the while exposing the fakes..."
You are doing fine, don't worry.
I have sent the seller some additional info and will update soon.
I don't like the looks of the coin.
We appear to have two different camps here. Can't we verify or refute the S?
To my eyes, the "S" did not look close to correct in shape.
A very honest and friendly seller!
Ending the listing.
As I mentioned previously, I’m in the camp of genuine, cleaned 1909-VDB with an added S. I agree that the shape of the S looks wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In another past thread you really picked a fake apart.
Ear lobe, hair details, beard and more.
Take the advice of the more experienced ones here and at the same time train that eye with great attention to detail.
So, the more experienced are leaning towards added mm.
It’s at least got the period in the wrong location. It can be withdrawn just for that. Perhaps the open minded seller can withdraw it and take it to a coin shop for an opinion.
Depending upon what was used, IF it is an added mm, sometimes the mm can be removed with acetone… potentially
More difficult to do but fakers will even drill into the edge of the coin and push up a mintmark from the inside! These embossed mintmarks are especially common on coins with mintmarks near the edge.
Look at the edge of the coin to see if has been "repaired or touched up.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
The position looks good for a die #3. Seems like I've seen this one before. The mintmark itself doesn't look correct.
Of course it can't be, knowing the coin has been altered.
Pete
The only coin that I've heard of this being done to is the Buffalo Nickel. Anyone aware of any other series where the mintmark has been embossed from a hole drilled into the edge of the coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Embossing cannot be accomplished on just any coin. The mintmark has to be very close to the rim. The Buffalo Nickel is perfect for this.
I do not know of any other coin denomination the has been "embossed".
Pete
I don't even think it's a Philly as the dot is tucked up right next to the D. And the mintmark is nowhere near the correct "Blocked Serifs" Mintmark 001 style. And it always helps when the die chip is visible......
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Well, I did but in wading back into this and trying not to offend, disrespect, over step my knowledge, I'm working on my entire approach to these listings.
Thank said.
There is one other area that I've started focusing on and that is the lower legs of the 3 E's on the reverse UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
I've noticed the the bends of them from left to right (not up and down) on a genuine 09VDBS somewhat reduce in form, where as counterfeits/fakes don't carry that bit of detail.
Its something I'm still processing to validate (still confirming)
I'm also noticing angle differences of the cross bars in "AMERICA" in a Genuine vs Counterfeits.
At one time I had a counterfeit 1914-D and the first thing I found out about it that woke me up to it being a fake was the chin/beard line all the way down the neck to the collar was WAY farther in distance and way cleaner of a line (no beard ripples). Just looking at it by itself I notice it, but once I laid it beside an actual 1914-D that counterfeit look silly. Now, I've not seen that strange beard/neckline on an 09SVDB yet, but its a detail I'm looking for.
The 3 E's of a Genuine #4 Die 09SVDB.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I'm glad that we can keep this thread on topic and civil but also help me in creating helpful & educational discussions and along the way make notes of past regrets and train wrecks.
One issue that I've gotten called out on in two different threads of mine is when I find one of these coins that we'll say looks fine to me so I bring it to the forum I got, I'll say called out on was the same statement that went something like this,
its BS to post these on the forum without evidence to back it up.
Well, I was working with the forum members here to help in determining "Genuine, Counterfeit, or Altered" or just respectively telling me that the coin is fine and I was correct in not seeing anything wrong with it.
It makes it hard to post these without conclusive evidence first because its been deemed BS to do so.
Thanks for your time to comment!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
It wasn't, to me, so much about posting it without convincing evidence on the last thread. There was a mocking tone toward the seller as well as NO evidence it was fake based on the coin. Just a series of circumstantial suspicions based on things like the photo background.
There are a LOT of threads here that start "is this real?" But when they stay focused on the coin attributes, they rarely go astray. Many of those threads were started by you.
The Buffalo Nickel was the most common coin that the "embossed process" was used on.
I saw an SVDB coin altered by this process at what was then a local B&M shop. This was many years ago but I believe it was in the mid 80's. It was a terrible attempt to do so as the "S" slanted to the left and was very marred. The edge of the coin had pitted dimple marks where the hole was not "filled" in correctly.
I remember why I can recall this coin as when I pointed it out to the dealer, he laughed and offered the coin to me for $5.00. At that time, a genuine gem bu was around $375.00.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
POOF! I doubled checked on the mentioned coin in the title post and the owner has removed it from being sold.
The thread didn't (hasn't) drifted to for off topic.
Its gotten lots of positive & insightful comments from knowledgeable people.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
This coin altering process is information I haven't seen or ran across before, Nickel or other wise. This is just more good information to add to my knowledge base!
Thanks
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 "POOF! I doubled checked on the mentioned coin in the title post and the owner has removed it from being sold."
Yes, as I mentioned above, the seller ended the listing.
After the seller removed the listing and I thought the communications were done the seller sent me a final message a little while later of "Thanks for the help"
I didn't get much feedback on one of my above post detailing some information about the "E's" on the reverse of the 09SVDB.
I know there are known key aspects of details used to identify a phony 09SVDB, be it altered, counterfeited, or faked. Things like,
Mint Mark Location, known for the 4 different obverse dies sets that were known to be used on the production of the coin.
Mint Mark Font Style, & serifs
Philly Mint Style VDB,
A die chip marker on the left Wheat ear on the reverse of the coin,
These seem to be the gold standard for spotting the non Genuine ones, and that's good.
That brings me back to the something I've been noticing, I know its not rooted in the normal details of spotting phony's but for me its gaining attention (meaning its not official by any sort of standard) and that's the three "E" in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA on the reverse, I've numbered them from left to right for my personal reference, 1,2, & 3.
The below 2 images are of the same coin!
Its a quality photo of a pretty high grade genuine 09SVDB.
If you notice the heels of the lower legs of "E" #1 vs the heel of "E" #3 you can see that #1 has a square cornered heel while the heel of #2 is more bent or rounded.
I've notice that the counterfeiters miss this detail.
Now, there is a down fall to this aspect of detail in that its harder to discern when the coin gets more worn from circulation, that is to say again its not fool proof, but its more aspects of detail differences that I've been noticing.
Here is the entire coin for comparison.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Great! that means that another one of these phonies has been identified and dealt with
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
That was my quick take too.
I have a link for those who are interested in what was written by our hosts about the Embossing process.
For what ever reason our hosts will not let me post the link.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Pm it to me
PM sent
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/counterfeit-mintmarks-watch-out-for-embossed-mintmarks/
Wow
I am amazed that you can post the link and I cannot.
I thank the gods for allowing you to post the link.
I will sacrifice a slabbed coin in homage for your help. LOL
Wayne
P.S. I could not reply to the your post showing the link.
WS
Kennedys are my quest...
Gotta be a bug
I tried to leave a comment in your link post and it seems to have just went poof as well (wasn't able to comment to it)
Good information in this thread for sure!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Wayne>
I will let you report it as I do have a "Bug Badge" already. lol again
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
@WAYNEAS "I will let you report it as I do have a "Bug Badge" already."
If you kill enough bugs you get the exterminator badge.
Don't you want the exterminator badge?
If I eliminate enough "bugs", do you think they would give me a "Flame Thrower" badge?
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
@WAYNEAS "If I eliminate enough "bugs", do you think they would give me a "Flame Thrower" badge?"
Nope, you get the Terminator badge.
That embossing article was very informative. That's the first non-buff I've heard about with embossing! I have cautioned peeps in the past to this nefarious act.
One thing to add: circulated coins are not immune. I caught an EF 1925-S Buff with one.
Scary.
Pete