Will there be any mules amongst the American Eagle gold and silver coins?

CaptHenway

Though the tweaks to the obverse designs are minor, there exists the possibility that some of the old reverse coins will show the new obverse design and vice versa. Remember the 2008 silver eagles with the reverse of 2007?

Be alert. The world needs more lerts.

TD

DCW

That's a good point. And it's always exciting when stuff like that happens in our gobby.

ricko

Good point Capt., it certainly is possible.... Cheers, RickO

WAYNEAS

Thanks for the "lert" @CaptHenway.
Here is hoping that it comes to fruition.
Wayne

messydesk

'Twould be cool.

derryb

Looks like the larger date on the newer Type II's is the best indicator as well as the addition of the designer's initials under the IGWT on the Type II silver. Many other obvious obverse die differences. Will they get an "Obverse of Type I" or "Reverse of Type II" label?

And for reference, here are the mint's images. Scroll down for high resolution images:

silver Type I bullion on the left, Type II bullion on the right:

Gold Type I bullion on the left, Type II bullion on the right:

High res of same coins.

Type I bullion:

Type II bullion:

Type I bullion:

Type II bullion:

jessewvu

I’ll buy thousands of each and let y’all know

WAYNEAS

@derryb said:
Looks like the larger date on the newer Type II's is the best indicator as well as the addition of the designer's initials under the date on the Type II silver. Many other obvious obverse die differences. Will they get an "Obverse of Type I" or "Reverse of Type II" label?

And for reference, here are the mint's images. Scroll down for high resolution images:

silver Type I bullion on the left, Type II bullion on the right:

Gold Type I bullion on the left, Type II bullion on the right:

High res of same coins.

Type I bullion:

Type II W unc.:

Type I bullion:

Type II bullion:

Great resolution photos.
I will save this post for future reference.
Thanks
Wayne

MsMorrisine

The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

JBK

Don't forget the edge. Maybe there will be a wrong collar mule.

MetroD

@MsMorrisine said:
The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

Interesting observation.

The current 'product page' for 21EAN appears to show the missing reed in both positions.

Image #1 - missing reed under the third digit (i.e., 2021).

Image #3 - missing reed under the fourth digit (i.e., 2021).

Link: https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html

coinsarefun

I was thinking about that when it was first announced. It would be nice to see something like the
2008 silver eagles with the reverse of 2007.. before when coinfacts used to show more coin images
there was one graded and super toned…….I always wanted that one!

MetroD

@WAYNEAS said:
Great resolution photos.
I will save this post for future reference.
Thanks
Wayne

Agreed.

Probable Mint source for images is here.

Goldminers

On the new Liberty gold design it seems like she lost her right foot.

messydesk

Someone posted this on a Facebook group today. I see two Type I obverses.

MsMorrisine

Type 1 & Type 1

Good eye

derryb

with this many Eagle die varieties in 2021 and the number of change outs mid year I would not be surprised to see a T1/T2 mule, especially in silver. At least two ASEs mules are likely. Due to the massive volume of bullion eagles they are more likely to see a die change out error (mule).

I suspect we may see the missing reed a decimal place to the right or the left and it will likely be accepted as normal.

tahbb143

@MetroD said:

@MsMorrisine said:
The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

Interesting observation.

The current 'product page' for 21EAN appears to show the missing reed in both positions.

Image #1 - missing reed under the third digit (i.e., 2021).

Image #3 - missing reed under the fourth digit (i.e., 2021).

Link: https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html

This is fascinating.

If the mint has the ability to very specifically place a collar element like this, why is it that collar elements on small dollars is all over the place (radial placement, orientation, etc)?

Or does the small dollar collar element madness tell us that this gap-tooth reeding is bound to be a bit all over the place?

derryb

look for the missing reed to be an acceptable non-error as long as it falls near the center of the date. Consider it a minor rotational issue that does not deserve much fanfare until it appears beyond the location of the date.

NumisOxide

Good point. Would be cool.

derryb

@tahbb143 said:

If the mint has the ability to very specifically place a collar element like this, why is it that collar elements on small dollars is all over the place (radial placement, orientation, etc)?

Or does the small dollar collar element madness tell us that this gap-tooth reeding is bound to be a bit all over the place?

Most likely during die/collar alignment the collar is "eyeballed" into position thus explaining what the mint obviously considers minor misplacement acceptable.

koynekwest

@derryb said:
look for the missing reed to be an acceptable non-error as long as it falls near the center of the date. Consider it a minor rotational issue that does not deserve much fanfare until it appears beyond the location of the date.

Someone will probably hype the hell out of it anyhow.

derryb

@koynekwest said:

@derryb said:
look for the missing reed to be an acceptable non-error as long as it falls near the center of the date. Consider it a minor rotational issue that does not deserve much fanfare until it appears beyond the location of the date.

Someone will probably hype the hell out of it anyhow.

and someone will fall for it and pay moon money.

koynekwest

That's true, too.

JBK

@tahbb143 said:

@MetroD said:

@MsMorrisine said:
The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

Interesting observation.

The current 'product page' for 21EAN appears to show the missing reed in both positions.

Image #1 - missing reed under the third digit (i.e., 2021).

Image #3 - missing reed under the fourth digit (i.e., 2021).

Link: https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html

This is fascinating.

If the mint has the ability to very specifically place a collar element like this, why is it that collar elements on small dollars is all over the place (radial placement, orientation, etc)?

Or does the small dollar collar element madness tell us that this gap-tooth reeding is bound to be a bit all over the place?

If you're talking about business strike dollar coin edge lettering, the process results in random radial placement and orientation, as the lettering is applied after striking.

Proofs have the edge lettering in the collar, but I have no idea how much variation, if any, exists.

Steven59

Well with all of the so called Quality Control - there shouldn't be - BUT money is to be made somehow..............

PerryHall

The biggest difference in the two types of AGE's is the placement of the 50 obverse stars. The Type I has four stars on the rock like the original Saint-Gaudens double eagle. The Type II AGE doesn't have any stars on the rock. Also, the placement of the designer's initials on the two types is different.

ricko

Thanks for the great pictures...This deserves further study. Cheers, RickO

olympicsos

@Goldminers said:
On the new Liberty gold design it seems like she lost her right foot.

That is from the original saint

olympicsos

@PerryHall said:
The biggest difference in the two types of AGE's is the placement of the 50 obverse stars. The Type I has four stars on the rock like the original Saint-Gaudens double eagle. The Type II AGE doesn't have any stars on the rock. Also, the placement of the designer's initials on the two types is different.

I would have loved to seen the original font used from 1907-1933 on the type 2 age. It's unfortunate the mint didn't do that.

tahbb143

@JBK said:

@tahbb143 said:

@MetroD said:

@MsMorrisine said:
The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

Interesting observation.

The current 'product page' for 21EAN appears to show the missing reed in both positions.

Image #1 - missing reed under the third digit (i.e., 2021).

Image #3 - missing reed under the fourth digit (i.e., 2021).

Link: https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html

This is fascinating.

If the mint has the ability to very specifically place a collar element like this, why is it that collar elements on small dollars is all over the place (radial placement, orientation, etc)?

Or does the small dollar collar element madness tell us that this gap-tooth reeding is bound to be a bit all over the place?

If you're talking about business strike dollar coin edge lettering, the process results in random radial placement and orientation, as the lettering is applied after striking.

Proofs have the edge lettering in the collar, but I have no idea how much variation, if any, exists.

Thanks.

derryb

@tahbb143 said:

Proofs have the edge lettering in the collar, but I have no idea how much variation, if any, exists.

Variation (up to 359%) is dictated by the placement of the collar which is independent of the placement of the dies. The question is how much variation does the mint find acceptable and at what point, if any, the TPGs begin to recognize it as a notable rotational error on the slab label.

MrScience

Very interesting discovery! Has anyone else found any mules among the 2021 Eagles? I have not had a chance to look for any....

MsMorrisine

@tahbb143 said:

@JBK said:

@tahbb143 said:

@MetroD said:

@MsMorrisine said:
The missing reed is below the 2

It is thought that it would be under the 1

Interesting observation.

The current 'product page' for 21EAN appears to show the missing reed in both positions.

Image #1 - missing reed under the third digit (i.e., 2021).

Image #3 - missing reed under the fourth digit (i.e., 2021).

Link: https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html

This is fascinating.

If the mint has the ability to very specifically place a collar element like this, why is it that collar elements on small dollars is all over the place (radial placement, orientation, etc)?

Or does the small dollar collar element madness tell us that this gap-tooth reeding is bound to be a bit all over the place?

If you're talking about business strike dollar coin edge lettering, the process results in random radial placement and orientation, as the lettering is applied after striking.

Proofs have the edge lettering in the collar, but I have no idea how much variation, if any, exists.

Thanks.

https://www.coinworld.com/videos/monday-morning-brief-oct-3-2016.html

Then using a 20th century version of a Castaing-type machine like that used during the 18th and 19th centuries to deter counterfeiting, incuse edge lettering was imparted over the reeded edge without crushing the reed details.