My first R5 Bust Half … and all the musings (and cracks) to go with it
pursuitofliberty
Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭✭✭
It’s been a little over two weeks since I won her … but I knew the coin was off-site (as you’ll see below), and Heritage isn’t nearly as fast when that’s the case.
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I saw her six weeks before the auction closed. Pictures of her anyway. The images seemed over-exposed, and a little flat … but oh, I know about this coin. I love the complexity of die cracks on this marriage. Oh, oh … hmmmmmm
An 1811 O112a!
One of the Queens of Crack!!
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What is the difference between the 112 and the 112a?
Hmmm, this is weird. My Overton book says one thing, but some of the examples I am finding do not have all of the indicators. Some appear to be missing most. I wonder where the cut-off line in between these states are?
Well, let’s not ask that just yet. This one has more markers than almost anything I can find, it is pedigreed as such (although not attributed on the holder, or listed in the auction), and I am pretty sure she is what I see her as.
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Weeks go by.
Man, I have to find better pictures. I search everywhere. No luck.
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A couple more days go by.
Yep, I’m going to put in a check bid. About half of what I might go. Just to test the water.
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I wonder if Lance knows of any pictures or if he’s seen it.
Hey buddy! @lkiegwin You ever see this coin before?
At the same time I ask that …
… oh, wait … that’s a great idea reading that thread. I should ask Mark to look at this one for me. Those images make her look kind of flat, but I don’t think she is.
Great idea. I’ll ask @mfeld to look at it. That’ll give me a better idea of what I might be willing to bid.
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Lance responds, Nope. Maybe you should ask Mark to look at it for you. He’s a great guy and will give you a straight up assessment. He has always done right by me.
Damn. Thanks. Yes, great idea Bud. I just dropped him a line.
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Mark responds, Sorry Todd. The coins are already off-site for the Auction and I don’t have access to view them.
Crap. Glad I tried. Thanks Mark.
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I was high bid for a week (?). Now I’m not. But it’s just a one increment bump.
Damn, how am I going to play this?
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Morning of auction …
Two more increments. Next to nothing.
Hmmpphh.
Okay willing to bid x, but going to save that for Live since I’ll be around. Will bid x less 20% before the Proxy shutoff.
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Hmmpphh again. Now I’m high, but only went up one increment.
Crap. Need to watch.
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Lot comes up, Live Bid enabled, ready to see what happens.
Honestly ready to watch my Proxy evaporate and then see if I’m in the game real time.
Lot closing.
No one bids.
What the … ?!?!?!
Did I make a mistake?
What the heck!
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What is the difference between the 112 and the 112a?
In all my post auction research, I find the definitive answer to the difference. The 112a must have both the obverse crack from the headband, across the cap and to the milling AND the crack above the D and STATES on the Reverse.
Interesting. Well, that’s good. Mine has all the markers on the image to qualify.
In all this, I find out that at least three listed 112a’s are not, but are really just 112’s. That sounds a little funny … “just” … as 112’s are a R4-, so it’s not like either is abundant.
All of this was confirmed by an authority on attribution and die state information, and he adjusts his database accordingly. All users of the AMBPR will want to get the next update.
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Did I make a mistake?
I don't think so, but it depends on what I expected.
Two months or so after I first saw her, she arrived today … and after a long iced tea and an intimate time to examine and appreciate and enjoy … I am very happy to be her next caretaker.
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Hope you enjoyed the musings ... without further ado, here's the main character!
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“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Comments
Thanks for taking me on the ride Todd. Love it! Congratulations
Damn, Todd!
Love them cracks…she’s quite the looker.
Congrats on the latest addition to your set. She’s certainly a beauty in my book.
Tough die state as well to find in AU!
Dave
Nice, Todd! Great pick-up.
Maybe another photo will better show the important die crack above D STATES. It's hard to make out. I see an ever so, slight trace around the top of A and above E. Which is probably enough.
This is what we're looking for.
I looked at my own just now and decided it doesn't meet the "112a" requirement I thought. Fixed. Thanks for the prompt.
Lance.
@lkeigwin Awesome pictures, like always! Yes, that is the marker on the reverse.
Mine is more like the first one. Faint, but there. Picked it up some here
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I like this die state. Reverse crack does look weak. Not sure what squeeks by but it sure is a nice acquisition.
Interesting journey to final acquisition.... and nice coin.... great pictures as well. Cheers, RickO
https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1811-50c-small-8-genuine-pcgs/a/1139-2931.s
I don’t think this meets reverse crack, I don’t see it but the obverse has it all.
@DChuckA
Hey Chuck! Welcome to the madness! Technically the Fredrick coin doesn't meet the requirement (IMO). It's one of several that are mislabeled. That's a 112 in my opinion.
There are a couple other markers missing that mine has, but my photo skills are not quite LanceView quality.
There's a crack that splits off between the hair and S8, and goes to S9 (that's latest state 112 from what I can tell) and then on the reverse there is a very faint crack in to the 50 C, through the olive leaves and to the U, which I haven't determined if is before or after the D STATES crack.
You might want to ask our friend Steve, as he is the one that helped me the most with researching this
@stman
Hey Steve! Happy July!! It is indeed faint, but stronger than I can capture.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
@persuitofliberty
I’m planning to locate it and will put it under the microscope. Will let you know what I see.
Nice coin, Todd.
Is the die crack above D STATES required for the 'a' die state? My understanding is that the die state with the crack above D STATES represents the terminal state (112.4) and die state 112.3 is all that is required for the 'a' die state.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@astrorat Hey Lane!
The latest I was offered by Steve was that the 112.4 was the 112a, and the 112 was the 112.1 through 112.3
Also, here's a couple more pictures with a little different lighting ...
... first of the crack that appears to be the last Obverse crack to form (which is still 112.3) ... upward to S9 from the primary crack to S8
... then the reverse crack (again) above D STATES
No matter how I try, it is nearly impossible to see the crack described as "Another faint crack rev from lower tip of wing down thru arrowheads, 50 C, and olive leaves to U", on mine. There are telltale spots along the path were the die was starting to break.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I now see the die crack on the reverse you’ve been trying to show. Atta Boy
(Can we still say that😃)
Nice pickup. Welcome to the madness of CBHD die state collecting!
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
@persuitofliberty
That DC that goes between S8 and S9 is cool. I like your pics.
I'll pick up any pre-1900 US coin with die cracks. I just love 'em! Yours is a beautiful example!
My OmniCoin Collection
My BankNoteBank Collection
Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
Uh oh…. Dippin your toes into the R5s is dangerous 😜
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
Maybe I'm missing something but the coin in the picture you posted appears to show the result of a die crack behind the bust (raised metal) and die clash on the obverse (in front of the bust. The photo of the obverse a few post before shows what appears to be an actual crack in the coin, not the result of a die crack which would be a line of raised metal.
What am I missing?
@pmh1nic
Hope I can help. Both (all) coins shown are a result of cracks in dies, and none are cracks in the coin, as you suggest.
Chuck's coin, the one you copied, is an earlier die state (i.e. the main obverse crack from S8 to the hair below the ear is less pronounced). My coin (in the OP) is a later state and the crack appears thicker (i.e. more pronounced).
Mine also has another obverse crack (very small, and only really visible in the closeups I showed of the stars) that developed as the die deteriorated more.
All of the cracks in this thread so far are lines of raised metal, although sometimes that appears to be otherwise in the images.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Thanks for the clarification. The photograph of this coin (below) fooled me because the crack behind the bust really looked like a crack in the coin. This is one of my favorite early designs and the die cracks make them even more interesting.
beautiful coin do I see luster in the devices?
I’m loving this thread, even though I’m not versed in the BH “madness”. Great story and wonderful pics!
Nice one!
I really have to go check mine.
I have a VF-30, but have it listed as a O-112, but that was when I got it in 2008, and I was just starting [anything in this area that is less than ten years I consider just starting] and am better now [I hope].
BHNC #203
Here’s my O.112a with all die cracks mentioned in this thread. It’s only a PCGS 40 and not as nice as Todd’s but I’m happy it’s a LDS.
Dave
@Treashunt Hey Frank, thanks for the email!
@drddm Oh Dave, I like!
All there, definitely a 112a, and a beautiful EF to boot!! Very nice!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
The toning on that looks amazing.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
A beautiful coin with lots of character. Nice addition.
Beautiful, and interesting coin Buddy...Nice pickup!
Sigh...😄
@pursuitofliberty ... interestingly, your 112a (definitely 112a) is still listed for sale on Dick Osburns site 🤔
@jayPem , Dave @drddm caught that shortly after I shared this coin. We think that site is inactive and has been for some time. If you know different, please have them take it down. I actually won the coin in a Heritage Auction in June, un-attributed, and with no description
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I think you are correct, the site seems somewhat abandoned.
Its possible to get ahold of Brian on the phone, but it takes days to find out if coins that are listed are still available.
I don't think they will sell yours out from under you though...😄
Now that you have one R5 you will need more!
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
gorgeous pick up Todd....I like!
Hahaha ... OLDER TREAD alert ... it regained legs! It's alive!!
I posted a link in another thread so @jayPem could see some other 112a's
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242