The bottom line is that neither the public nor collectors have the motivation you claim they do, they never did in the past, and you have never provided a single reason why they will in the future either.
Every individual is different and most of us have many reasons we collect and we even more reasons we collect exactly what we do.
I have now asked you three times, what prices do you have in mind?
...And four times I answered. I expect something like a solid Gem 1972-D quarter to soar in price to at least $2 wholesale. This means it will go from its current 15c premium to $1.75
The value of scarce Gems will depend on the interplay of numerous complex factors. The value of scarce chBU will also be dependent on things like demand, availability in lower grades and availability of nice specimens in circulation. A great deal depends on the price actually getting high enough to price collectors out of the market. But, I seriously doubt that five or ten dollars for a coin in chBU is going to be driving away so much demand that all the nice VG's and F's disappear from circulation. Things don't work this way. It's not as though there are millions of MS-60's or MS-30's just waiting in the wings for people who can't afford a lustrous BU. The coins don't exist any longer and even finding nice specimens in circulation can be tough. People aren't going to throw up their hands in frustration over paying $10 for a coin and decide to collect BU bust quarters instead.
A lot of nice moderns and most ugly modern has just been spent over the years. If you don't want chBU it might be even harder to find a lower grade. Just as there is no AU old clad there isn't so much drab, dreary, and awful Unc coins.
@rec78 said:
When the Company states a retail price of $42.95 that is the retail price. Anything over that is price gouging.
That's not the way it works. Dansco doesn't get to tell other people what they can sell the albums for.
Suggested Retail Price-just like when you go to purchase a new car. I have never payed the suggested retail price for any new car I ever bought. Much less over SRP. If you to to the Dansco website you can see that the retail price is $42.95. It works anyway you want it to work. Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that. If you want to buy something when the SRP is $42.95 for $75-$80, go ahead. I am not. If people hold off purchasing, the price will come down.
@MasonG said:
"I've been saying for half a century that there are innumerable scarce moderns in US and world coins."
And yet, here we are.
Exhibit A in the "Why you shouldn't count on making money with your coin collection" file.
Doesn't the modern era start in 1965. That's only 56 years ago. Man those clads became scarce fast.
I do believe that there are many scarce clads that most people do not know about. Problem is that no one is interested in them. Maybe if they get promoted they may sell better.
@rec78 said:
Try finding Dansco album #7166 for regular retail price. The price gougers on ebay are selling these for up to $80 and they are selling,
Not following your logic. If they're selling at $80, that's the current retail price.
@rec78 said:
the suggested retail price by the Dansco co. is $42.95.
What the manufacturer suggests is not relevant unless they are selling albums at that price.
Kind of like the old joke...
Customer: "How much is that coin album?"
Merchant: "$80."
Customer: "That's a ripoff! The manufacturer's price is $42.95!"
Merchant: "Why don't you buy one from them?"
Customer: "Well, they're out of stock."
Merchant: "When I'm out of stock, my price is $42.95, too."
When the Company states a retail price of $42.95 that is the retail price. Anything over that is price gouging. They do appear once in awhile at $42.95 or less you just have to look at the right time. No worries, i will find one at a lower price. Some supply companies list them at 21.95 but they are all out of stock. I can wait, Dansco hopefully will get back on their feet and resupply companies like Wizard and Amos.
@rec78 said:
If you to to the Dansco website you can see that the retail price is $42.95.
Then buy one from them. Problem solved.
@rec78 said:
Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that.
Nonsense. "Coin collecting" wouldn't even be a thing if "reputable" sellers refused to sell at more than the original price. A BU 1909-S VDB for one cent? Good luck with that.
@rec78 said:
If people hold off purchasing, the price will come down.
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
So you're saying that you predict that an MS63 clad quarter is going to be worth $500? That seems unlikely.
@rec78 said:
Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that.
Nonsense. "Coin collecting" wouldn't even be a thing if "reputable" sellers refused to sell at more than the original price. A BU 1909-S VDB for one cent? Good luck with that.
I am not referring to coins, just the albums and nothing was said about original price.
@rec78 said:
Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that.
Nonsense. "Coin collecting" wouldn't even be a thing if "reputable" sellers refused to sell at more than the original price. A BU 1909-S VDB for one cent? Good luck with that.
I am not referring to coins, just the albums
It's not bread or baby food so "price gouging" seems excessive.
More confusion of the debate. Why would a collector care if the coin comes from a mint set or from circulation? Where is the evidence that anyone does, other maybe you? Even here, this is the first time I recall you using this in your claims
There are almost no BU eagle reverse clad quarters made for circulation. As few of mint sets that survive there are even fewer clads made for circulation that survive.
People do care because as many as 90% of the coins made for circulation won't trade as chBU. Such coins can get high grades if they are clean but rolls rarely look nice.
I've tried dip with no success at all. Well. sometimes it will help with 40% silver but it doesn't help clads. I've tried MS-70 with no success as well.
@rec78 said:
Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that.
Nonsense. "Coin collecting" wouldn't even be a thing if "reputable" sellers refused to sell at more than the original price. A BU 1909-S VDB for one cent? Good luck with that.
I am not referring to coins, just the albums
It's not bread or baby food so "price gouging" seems excessive.
Price gouging is price gouging, not matter what it is for.
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
@rec78 said:
I am not referring to coins, just the albums and nothing was said about original price.
Sure there was. You said Dansco says the price of the albums is $42.95. That's as original as it gets unless you're suggesting Dansco gets the albums from someplace else.
@rec78 said:
I am not referring to coins, just the albums and nothing was said about original price.
Sure there was. You said Dansco says the price of the albums is $42.95. That's as original as it gets unless you're suggesting Dansco gets the albums from someplace else.
Suggested retail price is not original price. Suggested and Original have different meanings. Our conversation is over.
A lot of the world coin price rises follow the development of the middle class. This dynamic is not present in the US.
Yes, there's a lot of correlation. Even the exceptions can be interpreted to agree with this.
But the middle class in this country has never collected moderns. Say what you will this is an aberration because moderns are US coins!!! The middle class didn't collect coins in Russia or China because there was... ...wait for it... ...no middle class.
Why would you expect the middle class in this country to continue to not collect modern coin especially now that the number of modern collectors is exploding and there aren't enough raw moderns to maintain the status quo?
You are essentially predicting the past. I maintain that while you can't predict the future you still don't stand in front of the trends or the tides.
I'm also not sure what your CHBU roll obsession is. Pre-1933 coins have neither mint sets nor ch BU rolls available. Even the ones that do have the same picked over problem. But a roll of UNC Mercs and you are likely to get a lot of low end UNCS and even slider AUs because they've been picked over for better coins. So what?
You can still collect indian cents if you don't like chBU clads and any other grade.
@rec78 said:
The title of this thread is "The Days of Raw Moderns are Over." For me its just begun. I have started to search rolls again a few months ago, mostly half dollars, after a long hiatus. I just found my first my first two ddo's, a 1971 and 1974, just yesterday. I did find some silver coins even a Franklyn half. Try finding Dansco album #7166 for regular retail price. The price gougers on ebay are selling these for up to $80 and they are selling, the suggested retail price by the Dansco co. is $42.95. Every time there is a limited supply of New Dansco Albums, they instantly sell out. Believe it or not, a lot of BU coins are available for almost all dates in circulation, including all the way back to 1971. I began a Kennedy set a month ago, and have found all but the 1970-D for the Dansco album #7166 (No proofs) with most BU and a few AU coins, all the way back to 1964. All I need is the album, but I will wait until a reasonable price for the album comes along.
That's very interesting. It's hard to imagine that a simple album for kennedy half dollars could ever get so pricey. This goes many times over for a used album.
I'm surprised you could find so many dates. I'm told as lot of them from the '70's are nice AU's but later coins are usually beat up.
Of course a clad quarter set would have a lot of F and VF coins with no BU's at all. Even the '90's dates are getting a little tough in XF/ AU. Most of the quarters now days are not very attractive.
Q: One of my suppliers marks its products with a Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). Do I have to charge this price?
A: The key word is "suggested." A dealer is free to set the retail price of the products it sells. A dealer can set the price at the MSRP or at a different price, as long as the dealer comes to that decision on its own. However, the manufacturer can decide not to use distributors that do not adhere to its MSRP.
@rec78 said:
The title of this thread is "The Days of Raw Moderns are Over." For me its just begun. I have started to search rolls again a few months ago, mostly half dollars, after a long hiatus. I just found my first my first two ddo's, a 1971 and 1974, just yesterday. I did find some silver coins even a Franklyn half. Try finding Dansco album #7166 for regular retail price. The price gougers on ebay are selling these for up to $80 and they are selling, the suggested retail price by the Dansco co. is $42.95. Every time there is a limited supply of New Dansco Albums, they instantly sell out. Believe it or not, a lot of BU coins are available for almost all dates in circulation, including all the way back to 1971. I began a Kennedy set a month ago, and have found all but the 1970-D for the Dansco album #7166 (No proofs) with most BU and a few AU coins, all the way back to 1964. All I need is the album, but I will wait until a reasonable price for the album comes along.
That's very interesting. It's hard to imagine that a simple album for kennedy half dollars could ever get so pricey. This goes many times over for a used album.
I'm surprised you could find so many dates. I'm told as lot of them from the '70's are nice AU's but later coins are usually beat up.
Of course a clad quarter set would have a lot of F and VF coins with no BU's at all. Even the '90's dates are getting a little tough in XF/ AU. Most of the quarters now days are not very attractive.
You are correct, the early 90's dates for some reason are the toughest to find, but if you search enough you can still find a nice AU. Most 1990's - both P's and D's are very worn and beat up. A lot of 1989's are Proof-like. 1993's are bad also. When you get to 1995 and later you get a lot of high grades.
@rec78 said:
Suggested retail price is not original price. Suggested and Original have different meanings. Our conversation is over.
If you don't feel you can defend your position or want to try, I can understand. Bye.
BTW...
sug·gest
/sə(ɡ)ˈjest/
verb
put forward for consideration.
Again, Suggested and Original have different meanings. I am not here to defend anything. Apparently you are here to troll and argue. Why don't add meaningful content instead of trying to pin someone down?
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
So you're saying that you predict that an MS63 clad quarter is going to be worth $500? That seems unlikely.
I'm sorry I missed that part.
The mechanics of the world coin market tend to be a lot simpler than the US coin market. Most world coin collectors were US citizens until the 1990's. Since people are a product of their time and place very few modern foreign coins were ever saved and the ones that were got no respect. This means some coins like aluminum E German coins were never really saved and since they don't appear in mint sets they are quite scarce in BU. Such coins list for a lot of money now even though there are very few collectors such coins are far scarce than modern US clad. When German collectors seek the coins they are very difficult to find.
Nobody is ever going to find a chBU '72-D clad quarter so difficult because there are tens of thousands of them. I would consider it highly improbable that even a Gem could approach $500.
Even the scarcest clad quarters would require substantial demand to get to such a level in MS-63. It would require more than a quarter million serious quarter collectors and only the '82-P and '83-P are sufficiently scarce in MS-63 to have a chance.
Contrary to what some are suggesting I have no clue how many collectors there will be at the peak or when that will come and have never suggested an answer. I am merely saying that with almost no collectors at all today that the growth could result in numbers that are orders of magnitude greater. Since clad quarters are one of the greatest collectibles of all time due to their diversity, dispersal, ubiquity, and the great apathy they have inspired that substantial numbers of people _could _ collect them. But then I don't count angels dancing on the heads of pins nor future clad collectors. It is what it is and the first corollary is that it will be what it will be. Que sera sera.
@MasonG said:
"I've been saying for half a century that there are innumerable scarce moderns in US and world coins."
And yet, here we are.
Exhibit A in the "Why you shouldn't count on making money with your coin collection" file.
Doesn't the modern era start in 1965. That's only 56 years ago. Man those clads became scarce fast.
I do believe that there are many scarce clads that most people do not know about. Problem is that no one is interested in them. Maybe if they get promoted they may sell better.
Yes!
There is no demand for clad quarters apparent yet and this is my point.
The point is there is suddenly insufficient supply for Ikes and half dollars. While no one was paying any attention I've been warning people for years that the supply of the other coins was disappearing and eventually there wouldn't be enough. There are still enough quarters now, it's the Ikes that are in short supply. But while there are enough quarters it's only because of the near total lack of demand.
The next time someone walks into a coin shop to buy a 1972 mint set to get the quarter out he's going to be met with sticker shock. The raw moderns are gone so it follows that it will no longer escape peoples' notice that "all" the quarters are gone through neglect and apathy. Coin collectors have a funny way of most wanting what can't be had. If the quarters are tough and increasing in price some will want to start a collection. Collectors won't sell because the coins no longer exist.
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
So you're saying that you predict that an MS63 clad quarter is going to be worth $500? That seems unlikely.
I'm sorry I missed that part.
The mechanics of the world coin market tend to be a lot simpler than the US coin market. Most world coin collectors were US citizens until the 1990's. Since people are a product of their time and place very few modern foreign coins were ever saved and the ones that were got no respect. This means some coins like aluminum E German coins were never really saved and since they don't appear in mint sets they are quite scarce in BU. Such coins list for a lot of money now even though there are very few collectors such coins are far scarce than modern US clad. When German collectors seek the coins they are very difficult to find.
Nobody is ever going to find a chBU '72-D clad quarter so difficult because there are tens of thousands of them. I would consider it highly improbable that even a Gem could approach $500.
Even the scarcest clad quarters would require substantial demand to get to such a level in MS-63. It would require more than a quarter million serious quarter collectors and only the '82-P and '83-P are sufficiently scarce in MS-63 to have a chance.
Contrary to what some are suggesting I have no clue how many collectors there will be at the peak or when that will come and have never suggested an answer. I am merely saying that with almost no collectors at all today that the growth could result in numbers that are orders of magnitude greater. Since clad quarters are one of the greatest collectibles of all time due to their diversity, dispersal, ubiquity, and the great apathy they have inspired that substantial numbers of people _could _ collect them. But then I don't count angels dancing on the heads of pins nor future clad collectors. It is what it is and the first corollary is that it will be what it will be. Que sera sera.
😁😊😊😊😊😊 Clad quarters "One of the Greatest collectables of all time" HAHAHAHA!!
@MasonG said:
"I've been saying for half a century that there are innumerable scarce moderns in US and world coins."
And yet, here we are.
Exhibit A in the "Why you shouldn't count on making money with your coin collection" file.
Doesn't the modern era start in 1965. That's only 56 years ago. Man those clads became scarce fast.
They were far scarcer than most people thought all along.
Even by 2002 when I signed up here there were not enough left for a mass market.
Wondercoin is right that a lot of sets have been destroyed since 2002 and especially on a percentage remaining basis.
A lot of the "problem" is the lack of wholesale markets. The big problem is filling the pipeline if and when the demand materializes as it doing now. Dealers have to be able to secure a supply and to do this they must increase their holdings significantly.
A lot of the world coin price rises follow the development of the middle class. This dynamic is not present in the US.
Yes, there's a lot of correlation. Even the exceptions can be interpreted to agree with this.
But the middle class in this country has never collected moderns. Say what you will this is an aberration because moderns are US coins!!! The middle class didn't collect coins in Russia or China because there was... ...wait for it... ...no middle class.
Why would you expect the middle class in this country to continue to not collect modern coin especially now that the number of modern collectors is exploding and there aren't enough raw moderns to maintain the status quo?
You are essentially predicting the past. I maintain that while you can't predict the future you still don't stand in front of the trends or the tides.
I'm also not sure what your CHBU roll obsession is. Pre-1933 coins have neither mint sets nor ch BU rolls available. Even the ones that do have the same picked over problem. But a roll of UNC Mercs and you are likely to get a lot of low end UNCS and even slider AUs because they've been picked over for better coins. So what?
You can still collect indian cents if you don't like chBU clads and any other grade.
You are now randomly riffing on middle class.
We have a middle class. They have chosen to eschew moderns. Why do you expect that to change?
Russia suddenly having a middle class who decide to collect their heritage is a new development. The US middle class is not a new development. What's the trigger for them to change their preferences?
@MasonG said:
"I've been saying for half a century that there are innumerable scarce moderns in US and world coins."
And yet, here we are.
Exhibit A in the "Why you shouldn't count on making money with your coin collection" file.
Doesn't the modern era start in 1965. That's only 56 years ago. Man those clads became scarce fast.
I do believe that there are many scarce clads that most people do not know about. Problem is that no one is interested in them. Maybe if they get promoted they may sell better.
Yes!
There is no demand for clad quarters apparent yet and this is my point.
The point is there is suddenly insufficient supply for Ikes and half dollars. While no one was paying any attention I've been warning people for years that the supply of the other coins was disappearing and eventually there wouldn't be enough. There are still enough quarters now, it's the Ikes that are in short supply. But while there are enough quarters it's only because of the near total lack of demand.
The next time someone walks into a coin shop to buy a 1972 mint set to get the quarter out he's going to be met with sticker shock. The raw moderns are gone so it follows that it will no longer escape peoples' notice that "all" the quarters are gone through neglect and apathy. Coin collectors have a funny way of most wanting what can't be had. If the quarters are tough and increasing in price some will want to start a collection. Collectors won't sell because the coins no longer exist.
Ike dollars are different. Clad quarters have All the years from 1965- date circulating. Ike dollar only have 1973-1978 dates. I imagine that if you can order Ike's, and sometimes you can still order them from the fed when they have them, that they are mostly very worn from continuous roll searching. I do not want to order Ikes from the fed fearing that they may all be beat up vg's and just many, many ugly coins that have been searched so many times that there is nothing left to find.
The bottom line is that neither the public nor collectors have the motivation you claim they do, they never did in the past, and you have never provided a single reason why they will in the future either.
Every individual is different and most of us have many reasons we collect and we even more reasons we collect exactly what we do.
This doesn't explain anything and has nothing to do with your claims. It's a truism.
...And four times I answered. I expect something like a solid Gem 1972-D quarter to soar in price to at least $2 wholesale. This means it will go from its current 15c premium to $1.75
The value of scarce Gems will depend on the interplay of numerous complex factors. The value of scarce chBU will also be dependent on things like demand, availability in lower grades and availability of nice specimens in circulation.
This doesn't tell anyone anything. It's not a prediction.
A great deal depends on the price actually getting high enough to price collectors out of the market. But, I seriously doubt that five or ten dollars for a coin in chBU is going to be driving away so much demand that all the nice VG's and F's disappear from circulation. Things don't work this way. It's not as though there are millions of MS-60's or MS-30's just waiting in the wings for people who can't afford a lustrous BU. The coins don't exist any longer and even finding nice specimens in circulation can be tough. People aren't going to throw up their hands in frustration over paying $10 for a coin and decide to collect BU bust quarters instead.
Well, I don't have any opinion on any future price of $5 to $10 for these coins because it's not financially meaningful either. And no, it isn't because I am rich. It's that almost no one is financially motivated by what you are describing. It's a recreational expense equivalent to a movie ticket.
If you can get the coins for face value, why not?
I bought some partial mint sets from a dealer one time-his price, below face value-he took out what he wanted and sold me the rest. He knew what he was selling and said that he just wanted to get rid of them.
I still enjoy filling albums from circulation.
I have debated him on the potential of world "moderns" many times also. More exaggeration where his posts indicate he doesn't know the actual prices and exaggerates the scarcity. None of this has anything to do with the future prospects for this coinage anyway.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
You mean Krause? The prices which are just made up?
in our prior discussions, the examples you gave me weren't worth anywhere near the amount you claimed. I found actual sales at a fraction of Krause. You also told me that you couldn't find these coins when looking. So how do you know how much it actually sold for and was worth?
I already admitted to you that a very low proportion (like maybe between 500 and 1000 out of as many as 100,000) have performed directionally as you claimed. So what? I bought a 1944 South Africa shilling for about $50, paid $20 to have it graded and sold it for $2500. What does that prove?
More confusion of the debate. Why would a collector care if the coin comes from a mint set or from circulation? Where is the evidence that anyone does, other maybe you? Even here, this is the first time I recall you using this in your claims
There are almost no BU eagle reverse clad quarters made for circulation. As few of mint sets that survive there are even fewer clads made for circulation that survive.
People do care because as many as 90% of the coins made for circulation won't trade as chBU. Such coins can get high grades if they are clean but rolls rarely look nice.
I can go out and buy any of these coins as a date/MM combination in any grade up to MS-66 on eBay right now. If I cannot find it on eBay, I can presumably buy it from the few specialist dealers right now too. If I can't find it today, I can find it tomorrow or next week.
The adjusting factor is price. Based upon one of your last replies, I have no dispute that these coins will sell for $5 to $10, as it's not financially meaningful.
@WCC said:
in our prior discussions, the examples you gave me weren't worth anywhere near the amount you claimed. I fond actual sales at a fraction of Krause. You also told me that you couldn't find these coins when looking. So how do you know how much it actually sold for and was worth?
Regarding not being able to find certain coins, I have been working on a world "One from each country" birth year set. The coins I'm still missing all catalog for a buck or so in BU, and I practically never see them listed for sale. Is it because they're actually rare or is it because they're so common it's not worth anyone's time to try to sell them individually?
@WCC said:
in our prior discussions, the examples you gave me weren't worth anywhere near the amount you claimed. I fond actual sales at a fraction of Krause. You also told me that you couldn't find these coins when looking. So how do you know how much it actually sold for and was worth?
Regarding not being able to find certain coins, I have been working on a world "One from each country" birth year set. The coins I'm still missing all catalog for a buck or so in BU, and I practically never see them listed for sale. Is it because they're actually rare or is it because they're so common it's not worth anyone's time to try to sell them individually?
I'm going with Door #2.
Usually door #2 but If it's somewhat older (prior to the internet being widely used), (relatively) few might have been saved and the mintages were almost certainly low due to population and economics. I wouldn't necessarily expect to find it on eBay if that's where you are looking.
A noticeable and maybe disproportionate percentage of scarcer and actually rare world "moderns" are going to be from obscure countries with no organized collecting and almost no interest from anyone else. If it's actually rare, the prospective buyer might have to pay far more to acquire it than the next buyer will pay for it. I'm in that same situation with my primary series (a world "classic"), running out of coins to buy.
@WCC said:
in our prior discussions, the examples you gave me weren't worth anywhere near the amount you claimed. I fond actual sales at a fraction of Krause. You also told me that you couldn't find these coins when looking. So how do you know how much it actually sold for and was worth?
Regarding not being able to find certain coins, I have been working on a world "One from each country" birth year set. The coins I'm still missing all catalog for a buck or so in BU, and I practically never see them listed for sale. Is it because they're actually rare or is it because they're so common it's not worth anyone's time to try to sell them individually?
I'm going with Door #2.
Usually door #2 but If it's somewhat older (prior to the internet being widely used), (relatively) few might have been saved and the mintages were almost certainly low due to population and economics. I wouldn't necessarily expect to find it on eBay if that's where you are looking.
A noticeable and maybe disproportionate percentage of scarcer and actually rare world "moderns" are going to be from obscure countries with no organized collecting and almost no interest from anyone else. If it's actually rare, the prospective buyer might have to pay far more to acquire it than the next buyer will pay for it. I'm in that same situation with my primary series (a world "classic"), running out of coins to buy.
I give up. After 10,000 words, we've finally narrowed the prediction down to Ch Bu coins costing a couple bucks. Inflation alone will get them there eventually. And if they only get to a couple bucks it is because there is no demand or there is significant supply or both. In that case, how did we reach the end of raw collections? At a couple bucks per coin, all the collections will stay raw and continue to move around between collectors.
We have a middle class. They have chosen to eschew moderns. Why do you expect that to change?
No! The middle class does not collect clad quarters or indian cents; coin collectors do.
And most coin collectors in recent times are baby boomers who as a rule hate clads.
New coin collectors don't hate them so it's probable a larger percentage will collect them. This is where the exploding number collectors are coming from; younger people, especially younger middle class coin collectors. Clads are so inexpensive one doesn't need to be middle class to afford them. Who can't afford less than $20 for a clad quarter set in a used folder?
We have a middle class. They have chosen to eschew moderns. Why do you expect that to change?
No! The middle class does not collect clad quarters or indian cents; coin collectors do.
And most coin collectors in recent times are baby boomers who as a rule hate clads.
New coin collectors don't hate them so it's probable a larger percentage will collect them. This is where the exploding number collectors are coming from; younger people, especially younger middle class coin collectors. Clads are so inexpensive one doesn't need to be middle class to afford them. Who can't afford less than $20 for a clad quarter set in a used folder?
You are the king of moving the end lines.
You are 60 years into the Clad period. People like myself or younger have never known anything but clad coinage. My generation and I shrug.
You want to invoke millennial and Gen Z as being different. They are. They are LESS likely to collect anything. Numerous studies show this two generations to prefer experiences to possessions. So you should readjust your probabilities...or just shift the argument again.
I put together a nice Ike dollar set from mint and proof sets about 10 years ago for fun and gave my kids the rest of the coins. They put them in 2X2's and tried trading them at the ANA show and not one dealer wanted them. It was kind of sad for the kids. They ended up giving them back to me and I put them in an ammo can and a wooden box. I was tempted to just put them in my coin jar and spend them but they were so nice I just couldn't do it.
I just went and looked at them and they are absolutely beautiful with some fun toning developing from the other envelopes in the ammo boxes (red and tan empty cent paper rolls). We also have 3 1996 mint sets in the box. I honestly don't think there is much of a market for these coins if they are ungraded. I think a lot of people have coins that are just sitting in a closet because they are not worth enough to sell.
I just sold a bunch of late 60's and early 70's mint sets at the Kansas show last weekend that I had laying around.
@hchcoin said:
I put together a nice Ike dollar set from mint and proof sets about 10 years ago for fun and gave my kids the rest of the coins. They put them in 2X2's and tried trading them at the ANA show and not one dealer wanted them. It was kind of sad for the kids. They ended up giving them back to me and I put them in an ammo can and a wooden box. I was tempted to just put them in my coin jar and spend them but they were so nice I just couldn't do it.
I just went and looked at them and they are absolutely beautiful with some fun toning developing from the other envelopes in the ammo boxes (red and tan empty cent paper rolls). We also have 3 1996 mint sets in the box. I honestly don't think there is much of a market for these coins if they are ungraded. I think a lot of people have coins that are just sitting in a closet because they are not worth enough to sell.
Yes. There has never been much demand for these coins which makes it kindda surprising that there aren't enough mint sets to supply the wholesale need for Ikes and half dollars.
I know I'm "surprised" to see the dramatic price increases over the last week and the increases in Ike prices over the last year.
You want to invoke millennial and Gen Z as being different. They are. They are LESS likely to collect anything. Numerous studies show this two generations to prefer experiences to possessions. So you should readjust your probabilities...or just shift the argument again.
I never said they are different or the same except most baby boomers hate clad and very few people under 40 do.
You want to invoke millennial and Gen Z as being different. They are. They are LESS likely to collect anything. Numerous studies show this two generations to prefer experiences to possessions. So you should readjust your probabilities...or just shift the argument again.
I never said they are different or the same except most baby boomers hate clad and very few people under 40 do.
Hate is such a strong word and you keep using it. "Meh" is not hate.
Comments
That's not the way it works. Dansco doesn't get to tell other people what they can sell the albums for.
Every individual is different and most of us have many reasons we collect and we even more reasons we collect exactly what we do.
...And four times I answered. I expect something like a solid Gem 1972-D quarter to soar in price to at least $2 wholesale. This means it will go from its current 15c premium to $1.75
The value of scarce Gems will depend on the interplay of numerous complex factors. The value of scarce chBU will also be dependent on things like demand, availability in lower grades and availability of nice specimens in circulation. A great deal depends on the price actually getting high enough to price collectors out of the market. But, I seriously doubt that five or ten dollars for a coin in chBU is going to be driving away so much demand that all the nice VG's and F's disappear from circulation. Things don't work this way. It's not as though there are millions of MS-60's or MS-30's just waiting in the wings for people who can't afford a lustrous BU. The coins don't exist any longer and even finding nice specimens in circulation can be tough. People aren't going to throw up their hands in frustration over paying $10 for a coin and decide to collect BU bust quarters instead.
A lot of nice moderns and most ugly modern has just been spent over the years. If you don't want chBU it might be even harder to find a lower grade. Just as there is no AU old clad there isn't so much drab, dreary, and awful Unc coins.
Suggested Retail Price-just like when you go to purchase a new car. I have never payed the suggested retail price for any new car I ever bought. Much less over SRP. If you to to the Dansco website you can see that the retail price is $42.95. It works anyway you want it to work. Any reputable sales person will not try to sell them for more then that. If you want to buy something when the SRP is $42.95 for $75-$80, go ahead. I am not. If people hold off purchasing, the price will come down.
Doesn't the modern era start in 1965. That's only 56 years ago. Man those clads became scarce fast.
I do believe that there are many scarce clads that most people do not know about. Problem is that no one is interested in them. Maybe if they get promoted they may sell better.
Isn't it "suggested retail price"?
Then buy one from them. Problem solved.
Nonsense. "Coin collecting" wouldn't even be a thing if "reputable" sellers refused to sell at more than the original price. A BU 1909-S VDB for one cent? Good luck with that.
It might.
When a collector has a coin that he paid 40c for and catalog goes to $1000 it is of little consequence whether he can actually get $1000 or has to settle for 500. If he collects moderns he might have many such coins.
How many 40c classics that the Redbook lists for $3 will go to $500?
So you're saying that you predict that an MS63 clad quarter is going to be worth $500? That seems unlikely.
I am not referring to coins, just the albums and nothing was said about original price.
It's not bread or baby food so "price gouging" seems excessive.
There are almost no BU eagle reverse clad quarters made for circulation. As few of mint sets that survive there are even fewer clads made for circulation that survive.
People do care because as many as 90% of the coins made for circulation won't trade as chBU. Such coins can get high grades if they are clean but rolls rarely look nice.
I've tried dip with no success at all. Well. sometimes it will help with 40% silver but it doesn't help clads. I've tried MS-70 with no success as well.
Outstanding thread! 👍
Oh, the coins are boring as hell and common as dirt, but the personality psychology of the participants is fascinating
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Price gouging is price gouging, not matter what it is for.
How many do you have for sale at 40 cents?
Sure there was. You said Dansco says the price of the albums is $42.95. That's as original as it gets unless you're suggesting Dansco gets the albums from someplace else.
Suggested retail price is not original price. Suggested and Original have different meanings. Our conversation is over.
Yes, there's a lot of correlation. Even the exceptions can be interpreted to agree with this.
But the middle class in this country has never collected moderns. Say what you will this is an aberration because moderns are US coins!!! The middle class didn't collect coins in Russia or China because there was... ...wait for it... ...no middle class.
Why would you expect the middle class in this country to continue to not collect modern coin especially now that the number of modern collectors is exploding and there aren't enough raw moderns to maintain the status quo?
You are essentially predicting the past. I maintain that while you can't predict the future you still don't stand in front of the trends or the tides.
You can still collect indian cents if you don't like chBU clads and any other grade.
That's very interesting. It's hard to imagine that a simple album for kennedy half dollars could ever get so pricey. This goes many times over for a used album.
I'm surprised you could find so many dates. I'm told as lot of them from the '70's are nice AU's but later coins are usually beat up.
Of course a clad quarter set would have a lot of F and VF coins with no BU's at all. Even the '90's dates are getting a little tough in XF/ AU. Most of the quarters now days are not very attractive.
If you don't feel you can defend your position or want to try, I can understand. Bye.
BTW...
sug·gest
/sə(ɡ)ˈjest/
verb
put forward for consideration.
It's considered *price gouging" when it's for essentials.
When used for collectibles, its called *profiteering"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
From the Federal Trade Commission website:
Q: One of my suppliers marks its products with a Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). Do I have to charge this price?
A: The key word is "suggested." A dealer is free to set the retail price of the products it sells. A dealer can set the price at the MSRP or at a different price, as long as the dealer comes to that decision on its own. However, the manufacturer can decide not to use distributors that do not adhere to its MSRP.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed
You are correct, the early 90's dates for some reason are the toughest to find, but if you search enough you can still find a nice AU. Most 1990's - both P's and D's are very worn and beat up. A lot of 1989's are Proof-like. 1993's are bad also. When you get to 1995 and later you get a lot of high grades.
Again, Suggested and Original have different meanings. I am not here to defend anything. Apparently you are here to troll and argue. Why don't add meaningful content instead of trying to pin someone down?
I'm sorry I missed that part.
The mechanics of the world coin market tend to be a lot simpler than the US coin market. Most world coin collectors were US citizens until the 1990's. Since people are a product of their time and place very few modern foreign coins were ever saved and the ones that were got no respect. This means some coins like aluminum E German coins were never really saved and since they don't appear in mint sets they are quite scarce in BU. Such coins list for a lot of money now even though there are very few collectors such coins are far scarce than modern US clad. When German collectors seek the coins they are very difficult to find.
Nobody is ever going to find a chBU '72-D clad quarter so difficult because there are tens of thousands of them. I would consider it highly improbable that even a Gem could approach $500.
Even the scarcest clad quarters would require substantial demand to get to such a level in MS-63. It would require more than a quarter million serious quarter collectors and only the '82-P and '83-P are sufficiently scarce in MS-63 to have a chance.
Contrary to what some are suggesting I have no clue how many collectors there will be at the peak or when that will come and have never suggested an answer. I am merely saying that with almost no collectors at all today that the growth could result in numbers that are orders of magnitude greater. Since clad quarters are one of the greatest collectibles of all time due to their diversity, dispersal, ubiquity, and the great apathy they have inspired that substantial numbers of people _could _ collect them. But then I don't count angels dancing on the heads of pins nor future clad collectors. It is what it is and the first corollary is that it will be what it will be. Que sera sera.
Yes!
There is no demand for clad quarters apparent yet and this is my point.
The point is there is suddenly insufficient supply for Ikes and half dollars. While no one was paying any attention I've been warning people for years that the supply of the other coins was disappearing and eventually there wouldn't be enough. There are still enough quarters now, it's the Ikes that are in short supply. But while there are enough quarters it's only because of the near total lack of demand.
The next time someone walks into a coin shop to buy a 1972 mint set to get the quarter out he's going to be met with sticker shock. The raw moderns are gone so it follows that it will no longer escape peoples' notice that "all" the quarters are gone through neglect and apathy. Coin collectors have a funny way of most wanting what can't be had. If the quarters are tough and increasing in price some will want to start a collection. Collectors won't sell because the coins no longer exist.
😁😊😊😊😊😊 Clad quarters "One of the Greatest collectables of all time" HAHAHAHA!!
They were far scarcer than most people thought all along.
Even by 2002 when I signed up here there were not enough left for a mass market.
Wondercoin is right that a lot of sets have been destroyed since 2002 and especially on a percentage remaining basis.
A lot of the "problem" is the lack of wholesale markets. The big problem is filling the pipeline if and when the demand materializes as it doing now. Dealers have to be able to secure a supply and to do this they must increase their holdings significantly.
That's why I let "original" go and focused on "suggested".
What do you think of the FTC link? Meaningful enough for you?
You are now randomly riffing on middle class.
We have a middle class. They have chosen to eschew moderns. Why do you expect that to change?
Russia suddenly having a middle class who decide to collect their heritage is a new development. The US middle class is not a new development. What's the trigger for them to change their preferences?
Ike dollars are different. Clad quarters have All the years from 1965- date circulating. Ike dollar only have 1973-1978 dates. I imagine that if you can order Ike's, and sometimes you can still order them from the fed when they have them, that they are mostly very worn from continuous roll searching. I do not want to order Ikes from the fed fearing that they may all be beat up vg's and just many, many ugly coins that have been searched so many times that there is nothing left to find.
Here we have exhibit B, an active collector who only wants to pay face value for the coins, and list price for the album.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
This doesn't explain anything and has nothing to do with your claims. It's a truism.
This is financially irrelevant.
This doesn't tell anyone anything. It's not a prediction.
A great deal depends on the price actually getting high enough to price collectors out of the market. But, I seriously doubt that five or ten dollars for a coin in chBU is going to be driving away so much demand that all the nice VG's and F's disappear from circulation. Things don't work this way. It's not as though there are millions of MS-60's or MS-30's just waiting in the wings for people who can't afford a lustrous BU. The coins don't exist any longer and even finding nice specimens in circulation can be tough. People aren't going to throw up their hands in frustration over paying $10 for a coin and decide to collect BU bust quarters instead.
Well, I don't have any opinion on any future price of $5 to $10 for these coins because it's not financially meaningful either. And no, it isn't because I am rich. It's that almost no one is financially motivated by what you are describing. It's a recreational expense equivalent to a movie ticket.
If you can get the coins for face value, why not?
I bought some partial mint sets from a dealer one time-his price, below face value-he took out what he wanted and sold me the rest. He knew what he was selling and said that he just wanted to get rid of them.
I still enjoy filling albums from circulation.
You mean Krause? The prices which are just made up?
in our prior discussions, the examples you gave me weren't worth anywhere near the amount you claimed. I found actual sales at a fraction of Krause. You also told me that you couldn't find these coins when looking. So how do you know how much it actually sold for and was worth?
I already admitted to you that a very low proportion (like maybe between 500 and 1000 out of as many as 100,000) have performed directionally as you claimed. So what? I bought a 1944 South Africa shilling for about $50, paid $20 to have it graded and sold it for $2500. What does that prove?
I can go out and buy any of these coins as a date/MM combination in any grade up to MS-66 on eBay right now. If I cannot find it on eBay, I can presumably buy it from the few specialist dealers right now too. If I can't find it today, I can find it tomorrow or next week.
The adjusting factor is price. Based upon one of your last replies, I have no dispute that these coins will sell for $5 to $10, as it's not financially meaningful.
Regarding not being able to find certain coins, I have been working on a world "One from each country" birth year set. The coins I'm still missing all catalog for a buck or so in BU, and I practically never see them listed for sale. Is it because they're actually rare or is it because they're so common it's not worth anyone's time to try to sell them individually?
I'm going with Door #2.
Usually door #2 but If it's somewhat older (prior to the internet being widely used), (relatively) few might have been saved and the mintages were almost certainly low due to population and economics. I wouldn't necessarily expect to find it on eBay if that's where you are looking.
A noticeable and maybe disproportionate percentage of scarcer and actually rare world "moderns" are going to be from obscure countries with no organized collecting and almost no interest from anyone else. If it's actually rare, the prospective buyer might have to pay far more to acquire it than the next buyer will pay for it. I'm in that same situation with my primary series (a world "classic"), running out of coins to buy.
I give up. After 10,000 words, we've finally narrowed the prediction down to Ch Bu coins costing a couple bucks. Inflation alone will get them there eventually. And if they only get to a couple bucks it is because there is no demand or there is significant supply or both. In that case, how did we reach the end of raw collections? At a couple bucks per coin, all the collections will stay raw and continue to move around between collectors.
Sounds like a dystopian nightmare. Make it stop!!!
No! The middle class does not collect clad quarters or indian cents; coin collectors do.
And most coin collectors in recent times are baby boomers who as a rule hate clads.
New coin collectors don't hate them so it's probable a larger percentage will collect them. This is where the exploding number collectors are coming from; younger people, especially younger middle class coin collectors. Clads are so inexpensive one doesn't need to be middle class to afford them. Who can't afford less than $20 for a clad quarter set in a used folder?
You are the king of moving the end lines.
You are 60 years into the Clad period. People like myself or younger have never known anything but clad coinage. My generation and I shrug.
You want to invoke millennial and Gen Z as being different. They are. They are LESS likely to collect anything. Numerous studies show this two generations to prefer experiences to possessions. So you should readjust your probabilities...or just shift the argument again.
I put together a nice Ike dollar set from mint and proof sets about 10 years ago for fun and gave my kids the rest of the coins. They put them in 2X2's and tried trading them at the ANA show and not one dealer wanted them. It was kind of sad for the kids. They ended up giving them back to me and I put them in an ammo can and a wooden box. I was tempted to just put them in my coin jar and spend them but they were so nice I just couldn't do it.
I just went and looked at them and they are absolutely beautiful with some fun toning developing from the other envelopes in the ammo boxes (red and tan empty cent paper rolls). We also have 3 1996 mint sets in the box. I honestly don't think there is much of a market for these coins if they are ungraded. I think a lot of people have coins that are just sitting in a closet because they are not worth enough to sell.
I just sold a bunch of late 60's and early 70's mint sets at the Kansas show last weekend that I had laying around.
Yes. There has never been much demand for these coins which makes it kindda surprising that there aren't enough mint sets to supply the wholesale need for Ikes and half dollars.
I know I'm "surprised" to see the dramatic price increases over the last week and the increases in Ike prices over the last year.
I never said they are different or the same except most baby boomers hate clad and very few people under 40 do.
At a couple bucks per coin, all the collections will stay raw and continue to move around between collectors.
chBU ikes retail at about five to seven dollars now.
There's still no market in the quarters but then there aren't any either.
You keep saying that, but the only person I can remember saying (using that specific word) that they hated clads is you.
Not being interested in them doesn't mean people hate them.
Hate is such a strong word and you keep using it. "Meh" is not hate.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"Whatever dude" is not Hate.
Silence is not hate
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry