$2 1/2 Indian counterfeit
logger7
Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
How would you tell this is fake? The store dealer I bought it from thought it was ok and priced it as an MS63.
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logger7
Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
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I wish the photos of the coin were bigger. It's hard to detect counterfeits when the pictures are that size.
What Bill said.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
Like stated pics too small to tell. Are you able to take it back?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Yup. We need big, high resolution pics. Many counterfeit Indian quarter eagles have tooling in the depression at the back of the Indian's neck.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Have to have real pictures to make a call.. those look like scans. Seems to be a decent fake from those pics.
I'm comparing it to a 1915 in an NGC holder that is in my hand and there are a lot of slight differences. Close but no cigar. I suppose it could be the lighting for the differences but I think you should return it. Indians really need to be in plastic and there usually is a reason if they are not.
Here are some more, 48 bit color and 2400 dpi.
I don't think I would have caught it as CF, unless I had a real one to directly compare to.
Collector, occasional seller
Headband looks questionable. Detail on fakes lacking.
I agree.
To OP; have you checked it for weight and thickness? Probably OK if its gold, whether or not its real.
I agree headband and eagles breast look a little weak. But tbh this one is fairly deceptive in the pictures. A lot of times the Lister and color can be the pickup point.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
trim the white space
from CoinFacts
from CoinFacts
The headband does not look the same to me.
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lips, jawline and lower tassel bundle
These obv areas that I circled look suspicious.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If you blow the pic up you can see the horizontal tool marks at the back of the neck that I mentioned earlier in this thread before we got better pics.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I dropped it off at the dealer's shop where I bought it a couple weeks ago this afternoon, 1 1/2 hour drive round trip. He didn't remember it so I asked him to research it and get back to me.
Hard to tell, looks real to me but I am not a coin expert on these types of coins. These are vary commonly counterfeited though. That’s why in the past I would only buy them if they were certified 3rd party.
The weaknesses in the areas indicated are where a lot of counterfeits come up short. Frequently detail is lost in the highest points of the design when the copy dies or molds are made. The trouble is, how much of the weakness is due to plain old wear?
This is a very scary counterfeit.
It might just be the lighting. But the coin has a semi-prooflike appearance, which is rarely seen on genuine examples, but which I’ve seen on quite a few counterfeits.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, I have seen these coins with strong luster, but never a Proof-like.
That is a tricky one... but as @PerryHall said, those tool marks at the back of the neck are a known indicator. Cheers, RickO
When a counterfeit die is cast using a real coin, tiny air bubbles frequently get trapped in the recess at the back of the neck which is the deepest part of the design. On the counterfeit die, they look like small pimples at the back of the neck and the counterfeiter removes them by tooling them off. Of course the tooling leaves its own marker.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There is a lot of tooling around the date too. Flat surfaces too shiny rather than frosty.
it looks fake, but hard to tell from just pictures. i agree with the other comments about weakness in details and tooling marks.
Why would you take a chance on a coin already rejected as fake?
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
I didn’t see where anyone did that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So, the OP purchased it raw from a dealer and then the OP submitted it. I see now.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
Can't help much as this is certainly not my area. All I can say is if it's fake... an extremely deceptive one. Scary is right.
Once I got the images up on my desktop and not my iPad, I can see that lack of sharpness on the fake. Compare the Indian's facial features with the image from "Coin Facts." The loss of detail is not from wear; it's from a loss of clarity because the fake was copied from the real thing.
Definitely one of the more convincing fakes...
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Here are the two faces cropped and mounted side by side. The real one is on the left and the counterfeit is on the right. It's easy to see here, but it's hard for most collectors to imprint this on their brains, especially when they are often buying coins in less than Mint State.
Yeah, you can see it around the eye
The real one has a shelf behind the eye.
The corner of the mouth is shaped differently.
$2.50 Indians one of most types counterfeited. Beware raw pieces.
I've had an interest in coins for 17 years and I still can't fully figure out how to distinguish between genuine and counterfeit gold coins.
I did not follow this up; the dealer who I have done a lot of business with did refund me somewhat reluctantly even with all the evidence provided. And he seems to follow the position to only accept returns for reason of authenticity. Misrepresentation of any type should be a basis for returns; though a restocking fee may be applicable in cases of unreasonable returns.
My wife has submitted a number of $2.50 gold pieces to PCGS. Many of them not graded because of having been cleaned and two because they were counterfeit.
I would not have bought it. Heck ICG said it was fake.
Bill hit issue on head - in the comparison photo Difference plain as night and day.
Collectors easily deceived by this issue. I had one guy offer me a complete set told him they were fake next show he said “you guys were right.” He had gotten ripped big time by whoever sold that set to him. Unless you know how grade and look at coins don’t spend money on raw, or even big ticket classic stuff if over your risk limit. There is nothing wrong w PCGS 69 or 70 AGE coins. It’s a smart move.
Great job Bill, that side by side should be a lot for forum members to chew on... As "good" a fake as that one is it does look pretty obvious when you know what you're looking for. Thanks
Mark
I noticed the nose and cheekbone being different, only upon close inspection. Also, whether it matters or not, the designer's initials are off to the right on the OP's coin. This is scary, especially for all the new purchaser's of gold coming along. I would not have been able to even notice differences at a glance and without means and time to study it. Thanks for this great forum for the education we all can get and need. Trusted dealers are buyer's only hope along with the top 4 slabbers.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Well Bills photo is surely one pic that tells 1000 words.
I would not buy any raw $2.50 Indian myself knowing their history of fakes. In the Alfred Dieffenbacher book publ 1963 (in my library) there are some good examples of these. In German echt means genuine, falsch meanes forged (or fake).
I sure wouldn't purchase one raw on-line. In hand the differences become much more obvious as some have pointed out. I've learned a lot over the past few years. Just keep reading, comparing and sharpening the eye for the differences. What a shame it's even necessary!
Mark