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Hannes Tulving set fresh from hiding for 30 years

rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭
edited May 7, 2021 11:11AM in U.S. Coin Forum

just bought a bunch of Hannes Tulving slabs- grades and prices all over the place! One of my favorite holders

Comments

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    Awesome

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That box might be worth more than the coins.

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “Tulving”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭

    Mfeld- Corrected! thanks

  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool! We need more pics!

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And the tale of the sale, where, how, degree of difficulty, all the juicy stuff. Nice. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭

    Guy came in asking if we buy coins from Newport Beach- I saw the boxes and thought they were gonna be rattlers from PCGS- but when we slid out the boxes we saw Hannes handiwork. They've been in storage since 1989. The seller knew he was gonna take a loss compared to what he paid. There was one gold $20 he made $500 on but there was a WLH he paid $750 for!

  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 2:46PM

    Mostly Silver Dollars or other types as well?

    GrandAm :)
  • ThreeCentSilverFLThreeCentSilverFL Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Date and MM of the WLH?

  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 2:36PM

    Same guy?

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdnc/pr/federal-judge-sentences-coin-and-precious-metals-dealer-and-his-company-defrauding-over

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Way different! I like 'em!

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never saw that style box before, that is way cool.
    The coins I have seen over the years are almost always priced way above today's market levels.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

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  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 9:02PM

    That coin might be "oven burnt" to get that effect. Tulving from the mid-80's to early 90's was selling "investment" packages of raw "rare coins" via Coin World ads....tailored to "your needs" and all that. Apparently enough people were hurt that the FTC came in and shut him down by the the early 1990's. I'm not sure I'd assign any premium above raw with those holders. You'd have to assume the coin is raw. I believe his first bankruptcy occurred in that period. Then the next one in the fall out of the 2011-2015 gold crash.

    You'll have to explain to us all why this is one of your "favorite" holders.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,566 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is Tulving still with us? He must be in his 80's if so?

    GrandAm :)
  • RedstoneCoinsRedstoneCoins Posts: 217 ✭✭✭

    Tulving was almost as big as APMEX at one point, in terms of online market share of bullion sales for silver/gold coins. They were a big player back in their heyday.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rwheel said:
    They've been in storage since 1989. The seller knew he was gonna take a loss compared to what he paid. There was one gold $20 he made $500 on but there was a WLH he paid $750 for!

    That could be good or bad, but I’m guessing from the context the WLH was a post-1940 coin in “gem” condition, worth <$100 in the current market.

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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen these out in the wild

    Thanks for posting

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
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  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GRANDAM said:
    Is Tulving still with us? He must be in his 80's if so?

    He’s in his mid 60’s.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,212 ✭✭✭✭✭

    https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/court-imposes-15-7-million-penalty-lifetime-ban-against-precious-metals-dealer-hannes-tulving/

    Latin American Collection

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recall reading about this case a couple of years ago. Unlikely any of the customers got their money back. His prison and probation time is about over (2,5 yrs and 3 yrs)... So watch out, scam artists do not reform. Cheers, RickO

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,630 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While he was widely considered a crook, I have heard that his grading was ultra-conservative, even beyond PCGS rattler standards. Let us know if the coins in the box confirm this sentiment. That "MS61" dollar looks like a modern MS64 from here.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2021 8:14AM

    @rhedden said:
    While he was widely considered a crook, I have heard that his grading was ultra-conservative, even beyond PCGS rattler standards. Let us know if the coins in the box confirm this sentiment. That "MS61" dollar looks like a modern MS64 from here.

    Interesting, I never heard that before. I was pretty active buying and selling coins in that 1987-1993 period. Just by scouring Tulving's for sale ads I would never have thought you would be getting good value for your money. Frankly, I don't know of any retail dealer who had 'standards' consistently tighter than PCGS (or even as tight as PCGS) on raw coins in that 1986-1990 period. It was still pretty much the "Wild West." Only a small fraction of the rare coin market was dealing in slabbed coins up to 1990. The FTC just finished slamming New England Rare Coins and others in 1986 because a significant part of the coin market was basically getting lax with respect to grading standards and fair pricing.

    If Tulving had standards "tighter" than PCGS then he could have made a lot more money using that to his advantage scouring the bourse floor and major auctions like the best graders of that time were doing. The vast majority of dealers and collectors at that time didn't fully understand or know PCGS grading standards.....and they didn't need to since most were still in raw coins. When you are the tightest grader around, the sharks come to you to feed. There wouldn't be anything left for retail customers...except your occasional mistakes. I don't see how Tulving could have worked such a business model and made it profitable and sustainable. The tightest graders have a tough time doing business as retailers. Who is going to sell coins to them? (especially back then).

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw quite a few of the coins he sold and they definitely tended to be conservatively graded. But they were also priced aggressively. Most of the ones I saw were generic, in nature.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is that type of holder tamperproof? Is the control # database still searchable? Peace Roy

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  • EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:

    You'll have to explain to us all why this is one of your "favorite" holders.

    Agree. But like the holder or not, I wouldn’t mind having just one — as simply a piece of numismatic history.

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

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  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I too would like to own an example of this part of numis history. @rwheel let us know whatcha planning on these guys. Thanks. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rhedden said:
    While he was widely considered a crook, I have heard that his grading was ultra-conservative, even beyond PCGS rattler standards. Let us know if the coins in the box confirm this sentiment. That "MS61" dollar looks like a modern MS64 from here.

    Looks like a QC to me.

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • CoinnmoreCoinnmore Posts: 164 ✭✭✭

    I had a few


  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2021 8:01AM

    @rhedden said:
    While he was widely considered a crook, I have heard that his grading was ultra-conservative, even beyond PCGS rattler standards. Let us know if the coins in the box confirm this sentiment. That "MS61" dollar looks like a modern MS64 from here.

    Widely considered a crook? I think his fraud conviction and federal prison sentence may dispel the "widely considered" notion.

    Edited for grammar ...

    Numismatist Ordinaire
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  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bought some Oregon commems in those holders about 12 years ago and they all graded about the same at PCGS.

    *For Sale on BST* *For Sale on Ebay*
  • rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2021 7:51AM

    I like the holders because they are cool part of U.S. coin history, these are "proto" slabs. The grading is all over the place, conservative on the dollars but way over on the halves. Bring them all to the ANA in August

  • rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2021 8:11AM

    here's some common coins with high prices. I remember losing business to Mr. Tulving during the bullion boom 2009-2012. He could sell at 10c over spot but then delivery went form 1 to 2 to 6 weeks, then never.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting toning. The toned/untoned areas are opposite of what I've generally seen.

  • Dwight_MDwight_M Posts: 51 ✭✭✭

    Here’s a few relics at the shop ..on display.


  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 10,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Take that! Hannes Tulving. Let this be a lesson.

    Wednesday, February 17, 201, U.S. District Judge Max O. Cogburn, Jr. sentenced Hannes Tulving, Jr., 60, of Newport Beach, California to 30 months in prison and three years of supervised release.


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  • rwheelrwheel Posts: 28 ✭✭✭

    love the David Hall flips- they were direct competitors right?

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