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CAC and Green Spots on Gold

ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭

I was looking at a very nice gold coin in MS63 CAC in an upcoming auction. Original surfaces and nice eye appeal, but there are several small green crust spots in some of the crevices. Anyone have any insight on how these green spots relate to CAC and market acceptance? With how strict CAC can be on gold, I was surprised this coin made the cut.

Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
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Comments

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to see a picture. I'm intrigued...

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What are the green spots made out of?

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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    What are the green spots made out of?

    Since there is a 10% copper alloy in US classic gold coins, I'm guessing it's some type of copper oxide. As you can probably guess, I'm not a chemist. :D

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Downtown1974Downtown1974 Posts: 6,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2021 1:59PM

    @UrbanDecay04 said:

    @TomB said:
    What are the green spots made out of?

    They are carbon spots... Here's a link to my thread about that... I believe you've already read it but here you go again
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1056901/what-are-carbon-spots-good-read

    The discussion in the link talks about copper spotting. Copper spotting on gold doesn’t present in green does it? I have some gold with copper spotting, but it’s copper colored.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you're only looking at photos, the color is a reflection of film thickness not necessarily composition. At a different angle of illumination they might not look green. Think oil on water.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rather difficult to have any meaningful discussion without a photo of the offending item to review, all anyone can offer is speculation.

    My Lincoln Registry
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  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭







    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • ThreeCentSilverFLThreeCentSilverFL Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some of the spots look green. Some of the spots look dirt crusty. Wish I could see the whole Trueview.

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever that green stuff is, it does not look good. Outside of that, the coin looks nice but i would steer clear. I am surprised that it CAC'd.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good news.

    The green spots can be a form of verdigris or even PVC which does NOT harm gold coin surfaces, Simply send them back to PCGS to remove the verdigris or possibly PVC which they usually do at no charge. .

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • KliaoKliao Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UrbanDecay04 said:

    @Downtown1974 said:

    @UrbanDecay04 said:

    @TomB said:
    What are the green spots made out of?

    They are carbon spots... Here's a link to my thread about that... I believe you've already read it but here you go again
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1056901/what-are-carbon-spots-good-read

    The discussion in the link talks about copper spotting. Copper spotting on gold doesn’t present in green does it? I have some gold with copper spotting, but it’s copper colored.

    It does refer to the same thing happening on gold too... not only copper... and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Gold coins are an alloy of copper and gold, along with some other metals, so it's very possible for copper spotting to appear on a coin

    Gold coins are made of 90% gold and 10% copper. Take a look at the redbook. :)

    Young Numismatist/collector
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  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Usually CAC rejects gold coins with a noticeable green spot not a copper stain. Once the green spots are remove (without losing the coin grade by PCGS) CAC will sticker the coin.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "So they were gone before but happened since it got the bean?"

    They might have missed it. It is possible. But a very small green spot on gold coins is not worrisome.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there is a small green spot on a rattler or a very old scarce slab on a gold coin I prefer to leave them as is.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • markelman1125markelman1125 Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PVC residue???

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Upon magnification it seems riddled with green spots. I’m
    Not so sure it would sticker if you dipped those off since you’d lose the original skin.

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @markelman1125 said:
    PVC residue???

    No, that’s not the same as spots or verdigris.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @markelman1125 said:
    PVC residue???

    No, that’s not the same as spots or verdigris.

    So, may i ask what is it and should it detract from a grading perspective?

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not a coin that I would want.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2021 5:57PM

    @oreville said:
    Good news.

    The green spots can be a form of verdigris or even PVC which does NOT harm gold coin surfaces, Simply send them back to PCGS to remove the verdigris or possibly PVC which they usually do at no charge. .

    While I wouldn’t go as far as saying they don’t ever do it anymore, but the days of PCGS fixing environmental problems under the guarantee are over for the most part. I am not sure what the guarantee even covers anymore considering that grades are subjective.

    I had a CC trade in an expensive grade with a trueview. I bought it and put it in SDB. Less than a year later I pulled it out and it was 70% milky with dozens of little green spots on. I sent it back for review and they declined but offered to conserve it for a pricey fee. It didn’t matter that it was recently graded, sold at auction with photo evidence, it was my problem.

    I get why they changed the policy but that wasn’t the way Mr Hall ran things.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @earlyAurum said:

    @MFeld said:

    @markelman1125 said:
    PVC residue???

    No, that’s not the same as spots or verdigris.

    So, may i ask what is it and should it detract from a grading perspective?

    From PCGS:
    “ PVC damage
    A film, usually green, left on a coin after storage in flips that contain PVC. During the early stage, this film may be clear and sticky.”

    Yes, it detracts from a grading perspective and preferably, it should be removed from coins before they are submitted for grading.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    @oreville said:
    Good news.

    The green spots can be a form of verdigris or even PVC which does NOT harm gold coin surfaces, Simply send them back to PCGS to remove the verdigris or possibly PVC which they usually do at no charge. .

    While I wouldn’t go as far as saying they don’t ever do it anymore, but the days of PCGS fixing environmental problems for free are over for the most part. I am not sure what the guarantee even covers anymore considering that grades are subjective.

    I had a CC trade in an expensive grade with a trueview. I bought it and put it in SDB. Less than a year later I pulled it out and it was 70% milky with dozens of little green spots on. I sent it back for review and they declined but offered to conserve it for a pricey fee. It didn’t matter that it was recently graded, sold at auction with photo evidence, it was my problem.

    .>
    You might be right. But I did not see the last paragraph in your post.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:

    @Crypto said:

    @oreville said:
    Good news.

    The green spots can be a form of verdigris or even PVC which does NOT harm gold coin surfaces, Simply send them back to PCGS to remove the verdigris or possibly PVC which they usually do at no charge. .

    While I wouldn’t go as far as saying they don’t ever do it anymore, but the days of PCGS fixing environmental problems for free are over for the most part. I am not sure what the guarantee even covers anymore considering that grades are subjective.

    I had a CC trade in an expensive grade with a trueview. I bought it and put it in SDB. Less than a year later I pulled it out and it was 70% milky with dozens of little green spots on. I sent it back for review and they declined but offered to conserve it for a pricey fee. It didn’t matter that it was recently graded, sold at auction with photo evidence, it was my problem.

    I would not have taken that sitting down. I would have continued to press.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:

    @oreville said:

    @Crypto said:

    @oreville said:
    Good news.

    The green spots can be a form of verdigris or even PVC which does NOT harm gold coin surfaces, Simply send them back to PCGS to remove the verdigris or possibly PVC which they usually do at no charge. .

    While I wouldn’t go as far as saying they don’t ever do it anymore, but the days of PCGS fixing environmental problems for free are over for the most part. I am not sure what the guarantee even covers anymore considering that grades are subjective.

    I had a CC trade in an expensive grade with a trueview. I bought it and put it in SDB. Less than a year later I pulled it out and it was 70% milky with dozens of little green spots on. I sent it back for review and they declined but offered to conserve it for a pricey fee. It didn’t matter that it was recently graded, sold at auction with photo evidence, it was my problem.

    I would not have taken that sitting down. I would have continued to press.

    I assure you sir I did a few different ways with no luck. I had the choice to conserve it and put it out to auction or just put it in auction. I paid the tax and it came back bright white and then sold it.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh sorry, did not realize it was a silver coin. More difficult.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS no longer treats coins with PVC or verdigris or any environmental damage for free. Those days are long gone. It has been this way for five or more years.

    Read about it here.

    "Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion."
    Lance.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 12:57AM

    What if PCGS slabbed a coin that already had "environmental deterioration" prior to PCGS slabbing it and they missed it? and you could prove it.

    In the past PCGS owned up to it and conserved it at no charge. Speaking of gold coin in which it vas a minor rinse to remove the green verdigris and putting it back in a new slab with the same grade.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While the green spots should not harm the gold (though possibly could be reacting with copper content), I would want the coin conserved prior to purchase (or purchase at a discount). There could be surface anomalies upon removal of the residues. Cheers, RickO

  • panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have seen these green spots on a number of gold coins with CAC stickers including those graded as high as 67+. IF they were verdigris from copper in the alloy, I would expect to see the green globs on copper spots and the globs on all the coins I have seen are always in the nooks and crannies and rarely, if ever, in the fields.

    If it were PVC that had reacted to the copper, I would expect to see PVC film over other parts of the coins, including the fields. Certainly JA doesn't let one of my lowly Mercs CAC with PVC in the field, so I doubt that the condition on gold would pass unnoticed.

    The green color of the globs may not be evident under the magnification used by PCGS or CAC when grading. It very likely looks like the dark brown/black like the other detritus that accumulates on an original skin of a coin. The issue arises only in the high definition images of a Trueview level representation.

    Having stated the above, my take is that the green spots may actually be verdigris or PVC, just not from the coin in question. How many times does a 150 year old coin reside in an envelope, a 2x2, or a PVC laden flip from the old days? Is every flip only used once to hold one coin? Likely not. So say you have a PVC flip that had a copper coin with some verdigris, or had a silver coin with some green PVC globs, that became dislodged and remained in the flip? Next coin in the flip comes in contact with those globs and they get worked into the corners and stay.

    Another possibility is that the gold coin did have PVC contamination in the past and was dipped in acetone but not properly rinsed afterward. I assume many folks see PVC and then put the coin in acetone and take it out after a bit and let the acetone evaporate and thing the issue is resolved. The PVC, of course, does not evaporate with the acetone. It concentrates in the unevaporated acetone still on the coin until all the remaining dissolved PVC is concentrated in the last remnants of the acetone to evaporate. Where are these locations on coins? In the nooks and crannies.

    Just my thoughts, I could certainly be wrong. But as @golden said 'Not a coin that I would want.'. What matters is not what PCGS or CAC thinks, but what does and doesn't bother you. The fact that it was enough of a concern that you sought other opinions tells me that you should pass on the coin because those spots would always bother you.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 5:42PM

    What a dog.

    Bean or not the coin is ugly with those spots. Blow it out and get rid of it: eBay or GC. Will JA buy it from you at CAC bid?

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    What a dog.

    Bean or not the coin is ugly with those spots. Blow it out and get rid of it: eBay or GC. Will JA buy it from you at CAC bid?

    Guess you didn’t read the OP’s post.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2021 6:20PM

    deleted

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sheesh. It's an original looking 1844 in XF/AU. That's why JA beaned it. It's not a MS 65 to 67 to get all worked up about. If this were a branch mint 1844 the coin would be FAR more preferable to me as such than cleaning the heck out of it to remove all the deep verdigris. That coin will look worse after the "restoration." I'd like an 1822 $5 looking just like this 1844....warts and all.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:
    Sheesh. It's an original looking 1844 in XF/AU. That's why JA beaned it. It's not a MS 65 to 67 to get all worked up about. If this were a branch mint 1844 the coin would be FAR more preferable to me as such than cleaning the heck out of it to remove all the deep verdigris. That coin will look worse after the "restoration." I'd like an 1822 $5 looking just like this 1844....warts and all.

    Great post. A few tiny green spots on an original crusty pre-Civil War gold coin doesn't bother me in the least. It's a great looking coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @roadrunner said:
    Sheesh. It's an original looking 1844 in XF/AU. That's why JA beaned it. It's not a MS 65 to 67 to get all worked up about. If this were a branch mint 1844 the coin would be FAR more preferable to me as such than cleaning the heck out of it to remove all the deep verdigris. That coin will look worse after the "restoration." I'd like an 1822 $5 looking just like this 1844....warts and all.

    Great post. A few tiny green spots on an original crusty pre-Civil War gold coin doesn't bother me in the least. It's a great looking coin.

    I think it needs to be factored into cost. As a coin gets up there in terms of condition census and price, collectors become very discerning and rightly so. That's not to say this one isn't a very nice coin but if there is another one without the green stuff of similar quality...

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although the spots on OP coin are small in size, I am not so sure they are totally benign aspects on the coin surface. Also, I hate the term "carbon spots".

    An alloy does NOT have to be homogeneous and in areas there may be much greater concentrations of one component or another. If in this particular coin those crevices the micro-copper concentrations were much higher and they did oxidize, then removal could cause pitting. They will not at all necessarily be swept or removed off the surface. The fact that the majority of the coin alloy is gold would then be irrelevant and assumptions based on the behavior of gold to cleaning/acid solutions would then NOT apply.

    So-called carbon spots are also less aggressive oxidations of the metal and are also not "floating" on the surface but analogous to the oxidation/corrosion issues on this coin.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
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  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe I’m picky but unless I was able to get a significant discount (which you probably won’t at an auction with a CAC coin) I wouldn’t be interested in buying an expensive coin with multiple little green spots regardless of what they are.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2021 8:54AM

    Can you find pre-1817 US large cents in typical AG-XF condition that don't have ANY verdigris or 'spots' dug into them? A lot of people collect those. Same comment for say any US pre-1933 gold, even UNC $20 Saints. You will find flecks or spots on the majority of them if you look close enough.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:
    What if PCGS slabbed a coin that already had "environmental deterioration" prior to PCGS slabbing it and they missed it? and you could prove it.

    If it could be proven I am sure PCGS would try to conserve it at no cost. And if unable, would make a guarantee payout. That's what DW told me a few years ago when talked about PVC on a slabbed bust half.

    Proof might be difficult. I can't think of many scenarios where it could be proven beyond doubt. Perhaps a crossed coin where the damage was apparent in the older TPG holder. That might work. Mere raw images could be manipulated and therefore suspect.
    Lance.

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:
    Sheesh. It's an original looking 1844 in XF/AU. That's why JA beaned it. It's not a MS 65 to 67 to get all worked up about. If this were a branch mint 1844 the coin would be FAR more preferable to me as such than cleaning the heck out of it to remove all the deep verdigris. That coin will look worse after the "restoration." I'd like an 1822 $5 looking just like this 1844....warts and all.

    It’s MS63, thus the increased level of scrutiny

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2021 1:33PM

    @Proofmorgan said:

    It’s MS63, thus the increased level of scrutiny

    >

    Ouch. My bad. I just went with what I saw in the photos. Looked more XF/AUish to me than choice UNC with some high point rub. But I can see them giving it a MS grade. So at that 63 grade level I'm a bit surprised it was CAC'd.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold

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