PSA acquires AI grading startup Genamint.
mrburns443
Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭
mrburns443
Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭
mrburns443
Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
The re-sub angle seemed to be more heavily covered than detecting alterations which I feel infinitely more important.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
https://prnewswire.com/news-releases/professional-sports-authenticator-acquires-genamint-to-introduce-next-generation-technology-to-grading-process-301273225.html
Pretty amazing if it works. I don't see a problem with the crack out, resubmit. It's the crack out, alter, resubmit that would be the issue. And if it can "fingerprint" a card, that should solve the problem of any previously graded PSA card. Also, if it works to help grade the card, there shouldn't be the need for crack outs. Right?
True. I wonder what the human element of grading would be. I wonder what the percentage would be on star cards being resubmitted that would come back in a higher grade. It’ll make grading more interesting for sure.
I think cracking out and resubmitted g is a huge problem and am glad they are tryi g to correct this. Once it's graded a certain way that should be it. Done. Forever in the annals of time it will be remembered as that grade. It's ridiculous that you have more psa 9s than actual cards created likely in a lot of cases because people have sent the same card in 25 times.
you got 1 more chance at the crack and resub game per card.
good luck gents!
what does this mean for the "review" game is probably the bigger question now.
hopefully humans can still override the opinion of a computer. if not, terminator countdown in 3, 2, ......
I also wonder how long it will take them to implement changes?
This may prevent re-sub of a lower grade card that is cracked out trimmed and re-submitted - which is potential great thing, but what about cards that are trimmed prior to first submission?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
"what does this mean for the "review" game is probably the bigger question now."
Yeah not cool. I have 2 review orders there now and will be 500.00 in charges. They have been there for 7 months as well. Ugh
well the previous or current incarnations of them probably arent in the genamint database yet.
Yeah but the new stance seems to be they graded x the first time so it’s still x?
true.
It’s my understanding that this is just not worded all that well; pretty sure reviews aren’t going anywhere.
Why in the world would you not offer a service like that ?
People send a card in that already made the company money and offer more money for a second opinion and are obligated to pay regardless?
Why would you ever shut down that revenue stream?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
i agree. of course before that, i would ask why would you ever shut down the "crack out" game w card fingerprinting. but that's exactly what it says and exactly what the card fingerprinting does.
i would bet heavily that more cards are cracked out vs reviewed.
so let's start from a much bigger revenue stream first...
and the simple answer could be "seems revenue stream is strong enough w having to shut down for 3 months. and still falling behind in the ctd."
In no particular order...
Card Security
Accurate Population Reports
Deterrence to Alteration
Creation of a card image database (already underway)
More Detailed Grade Report
Limit Liabilities
I would guess those that crack and resub will now do so with other companies (smaller %) or start submitting for reviews (larger %) as it seems they’re being signaled to do.
And again, it could just be some poor word choice. If so, PSA should hire ME to write for them! 😂😂😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
duh. i understand the reasoning. we were discussing shutting down revenue streams.
and since they obviously shutdown a bigger one, then what's the review concern. i then went on to perhaps answer why in the follow up post! 😉🤯
I’m not going to be able to tell you much you don’t know; you are sharper than me, been at it longer and do it better.
My only point was I don’t think they will lose much revenue because it will be channeled through review.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
awe. don't go all high road here. this wasn't a pissing contest, nor was i trying to make it one. this response above indicates you obviously feel differently. i apologize for assuming a seasoned vet here understood the reasons why too. my bad. i will hold you in lower regards from this point on at your own personal request.
and my only point was that by shutting down for 3 months and still falling behind was that NEITHER revenue stream is most likely a concern.
ironic thing is that i was agreeing w you but also granted you enough credit not to back peddle and build a bullet point presentation as to why. so please forgive me.
@blurryface
LOL
I was 100% just offering a compliment. Don’t take it any other way.
YOU have much good inside information; saved me good money personally. It’s a simple fact:
While I do collect, I have no connect 😂
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@blurryface
Sometimes I spell stuff out just for the benefit of the other folks reading.
Hence, my saying I don’t think there’s much I can tell YOU.
Again, big fan. Meant no harm.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
You have to wonder if it gets to the point where a grade from the machine is considered the gold standard and anything prior to the machine is considered lesser...and thus must be resubmitted if you want top of market value on your card. I could easily see a future where a ‘Genamint 10’ on eBay starts getting a premium over theold school 10s.
so if a human grades your card and you feel it is incorrect, what course of action is there to try to get the grade you think it deserves? I have yet to resub, but certainly have a small pile that I see nothing wrong with and they got PSA 9s...I feel they should be 10s...with the increase in prices to have a card graded, I feel it is within a person's rights to pony up the cash again if they feel their cards should have been graded higher...
Given that at the current pace there are cards submitted in 2021 that might not be seen until 2023, this to me is an extension of their automation increasing throughput priority as much as anything else
I find it interesting that protecting the sanctity of the population report is still considered a possibility. Regardless of what PSA does from today onward, the population report is a tool that only produces summary data from one defined source- PSA submission data.
No matter what, PSA cards are cracked and resubbed, PSA cards that are cracked and sent along to other TPG's, and PSA cards are cracked that the owner decides are best kept or sold without a PSA holder with the grade assigned. Nothing will stop the latter two, even if PSA decided to use AI to fingerprint cards to fight crack and resubs.
The pop report is helpful just as VCP is helpful- as a tool meant to provide insight, as it has never held the necessary data to provide a definitive stamp of truth of what once-graded PSA cards are not out there anymore in the cardiverse, or what population data is a reflection of the same card being graded multiple times.
Using AI to determine whether previously graded cards have been altered would be a massive step forward. Assuming that all previously graded cards have been altered when PSA is using technology that can show otherwise seems quite strange.
As Joe Orlando has said, PSA's services amount to "Humans looking at cards." We pay for opinions. It stands to reason that we sometimes decide to pay for second opinions. I don't see any harm at all in a person wanting to pursue a higher grade than originally assigned as long as no card doctoring takes place in between.
-Nathanael
if psa was consistent then this wouldn't be a problem. the problem is that a card can be graded 3-4 grades different depending on the grader. I don't know about you but I am not going to live with the first grade when the first grade + 3 is more appropriate
with that technology, say GOOD by, to the Tsunami of PSA 10 in modern and ultra modern cards.
I am sure there will be another new holder after Genamint gets implemented...people will want everything in a "post Genamint" holder (like they did when the "lighthouse" was new...)
I guess this Genamint is something like the this mulching machine. Feed with raw subs, on one side, and expel graded cards ready to ship.
So how will they implement this technology. If you buy a raw card that was graded but cracked out will PSA refuse to grade it? Or once it is scanned does it just get the same grade as the previous?
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
That's exactly what I was just going to post. If someone sends a card to PSA and it gets a 7, say, and there is just some minor issue that was enough to give it a 7, so the submitter cracks it out thinking a raw card will sell for more than a PSA 7 because the card looks better than a 7 -- so now the person who buys that raw card and then sends it to PSA it will get it shoved back to him because it has already been graded? That'd be rough for the buyer...how long do people get to return a card if they bought it on Ebay, because if it is a while, there could be a lot more of that done than there already is.
Also, is this technology fool-proof? You telling me of the 50k + Zion base rookies out there, that every one is perfectly unique? I find that hard to believe. So man it would suck if you sent in a card you pulled out of a pack and then PSA won't grade it because they say it has already been graded....just see a lot of room for issues if they truly are going to be using this approach
I have no idea how a computer can grade a card?? I would assume that no vintage could ever grade a 9 or 10. There is always a tippy touch of wear somewhere on a card. I'm not sure i've seen a perfect 10 vintage card.
It’s my understanding that humans will still grade the cards; the AI portion will be concerned with a ‘pre check’ of the card that the grader can reference - accurate measurements, areas of concern, and perhaps even generate some usable data, too.
Human(s) will then assign a grade, as they’ve always done in accordance with normal procedures. They will now have some of the work done already and therefore know they have been presented with a ‘clean card’ with some data of where to look for potential flaws.
Now, perhaps a card won’t ever get to a grader if it fails on the ‘pre check’ - a recoloration is detected or the card measures too short - and it won’t qualify for a grade so it ‘exits the system’ at that point.
But that’s also going to save time, which I believe this is about 85% of the goal with this AI acquisition - to speed the plow.
However, there are plenty of people here more knowledgeable than me - I come here to look at cards, offer opinions and learn from others - so I’d love to hear from the guys who have been grading cards longer than I have to hear their perspective.
Maybe even a weigh in from @AFLfan or another PSA representative.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I think a lot of this is in the “remains to be seen” category, but my interpretation was that they’d recognize the card as previously graded and just reslab it with the same serial number and grade (after a quick look to make sure the crack out didn’t damage it). Might be a shock to some raw buyers who send a previously graded card in (that they didn’t know had been previously graded) and get an old serial number, but it sounds like they want to force people down the “review” path. Just assumptions until we get more info from PSA, of course.
Jim
@1951WheatiesPremium - The fine details of how this new application will be used have not yet passed across my desk, if they have been determined. I have heard multiple times that this will be a tool to assist in the grading process and is not considered to be a replacement for human graders. Beyond that I am not yet sure.
If the system can ID, a card from previous grading, also the system, can ID the submitter , if is the same from first time card was graded, they could reject grading again. If is a new submitter, system could regrade again, with the same grade as original, if not new flaws detected, or lower the grading if there are new flaws. But never with higher grade.
Any way looks that system will be no ready by July 1st
I don't see where this has been posted. Here is the link to the Genamint Demo on youtube.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZgA9DfP1K-s
here's another quandary -- how does this affect the "minimum grade" option? Are fewer people going to use that option now since they may only have that one chance to get it into a PSA slab?
How can Artificial Intelligence have an "eye appeal" subgrade?...LOL
Before COVID19 I attended several lectures on AI. Really just a matter of quantifying what attributes the average person considers appealing. While the same algorithms wont work for everyone it might cover 90% given our species on the whole is rather predictable.
I for one welcome our insect robot overlords.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
unless there is an evaluation happening that is not being seen in the scan's , the subgrades look way off. I am curious how it is evaluating surface that the 82's are getting a 2 for surface. and how the 34 got a 7 on corners where the corners looked more like 3 corners or a miscut card got a 3.5 for centering. rather interesting demo
FWIW, I think PSA will be super careful rolling this out. Imagine if this radically altered the way their grading was done...It could be a real disaster for them in terms of market share. To me it seems like they won't take that kind of gamble. Small bets to start.
yeah, those lower corners on the Critz card are surely not 7
It will come down to what the unit is programmed to look for, or not look for. And there could be more than one program. Say one for T cards,one for vintage, one for modern and so forth.
Does it only measure size? And does it look at the edges from the sides? I’ve seen where they just buzz only one cm of the edge on a corner. This was a Psa 6 crack out. Couldn’t see the edge in the case. Now I won’t be sending it because it looks altered.
posting for informational purposes only. not my words or opinion however i do find some of this info to be quite interesting:
what this opinion does not go on to say is that if anyone were to be able to scale it for psa’s use, it would be nat. also, if nat is/was the only angel investor, well, thats pretty much all ya need anyways.
@handyman I wonder if that card is not trimmed and more of screw down compression factor? can we see the whole card as it is?
The way it stretches the cards that are not standard sized would have to stretch any defect and make it over-deduct for it. I think it would have to have boxes it puts the card into for all card sizes.
Where I would like this to go is that something like this software becomes an app for our phones. We could then go back to being able to touch our actual cards - no waits for a TPG. The scan gives the card an identifier. Anyone with the app can scan it and see the grade. For auctions pics of the scan would be the flip.
Going to shows we would be back to look at cards that we could actually touch and hold instead of having to look at all our cards through plastic. Imagine getting a hit in a pack and grading and logging it instantly with your phone. If somehow your card is damaged it regrades it but keeps it as the same card.
Am sure this is years out - but I would love it if Slabs become a thing of the past.