Making an offer on a coin from a dealer's website
rays
Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
With no coin shows for the time being, its a different world to buy coins than before. To that end, I have been looking for a particular semi-key date in a particular grade and color. It is not particularly rare, but not common either (pop is in the 60 range). I found one in a Great Collections auction last summer, and bid 25% over the PCGS price guide, but lost it by one increment (as sometimes happens). This particular coin was well-struck, atypical for the issue.
Fast forward 9 months and I see this (exact, not one like it) coin on a dealer's website, marked up 25% from what it sold for last year, not an uncommon dealer mark up at all.
Since there is no way to see the coin in person at a show and make an offer, I emailed the dealer and offered 90% of their asking price, which happened to be about the middle between what was paid at auction and the current asking price (assuming this dealer was the winning bidder last summer). Although I know who this dealer is, I have never bought from them before. My email was very polite, and thanked them for their consideration of my offer.
I received the following reply:
no thanks
No counter offer, no nothing. Perhaps my offer was offensive in some way, although I don't see how.
Has anyone else made offers on coins through the internet??
Comments
It sounds as if you made a fair offer and (whether or not he was the winning bidder of the coin in the auction) he didn’t want to negotiate. That happens sometimes.😉 That said, a more polite reply would have been nice.
Here are a couple of other things to consider. If he was the winning bidder, his maximum bid might have been quite a bit higher. Many coins are selling at higher prices than they were when the coin was auctioned.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It just seems to me if a potential new customer contacts you, your answer would be a little more than a two word brush off.
I'm frequently the 2nd buyer after a coin is auctioned and get questioned all the time referencing the coin recently sold for this. I just politely decline.
Here's a coin that you oughtta be able to offer less than 10% of the asking price for: https://ebay.com/itm/1901-S-25c-PCGS-CAC-AU53-Famous-Key-Date-Barber-Quarter-Famous-Key-Date/203337114548?hash=item2f57d623b4:g:UF0AAOSwDFJgaSAK
You might consider the possibility that even though the coin sold for one increment over your bid, the dealer (if he was, indeed, the high bidder) was prepared to pay even more for it. As far as the curt response to your offer, who knows? It's an email- I wouldn't read anything into it, but that's just me.
Yep, sometimes it happens that they won’t be open to a deal. There’s one seller on eBay that has a number of coins I am interested in but not at the price they listed. They’ve been listed for nearly a year now (relisted at same price) and I sent a note asking if they would take an offer of about 92% of their list. They have $10+ S/h to cover eBay fees no doubt. Didn’t even hear a “no” back. Just happens. I choose not to buy from them in the future.
That’s how I approach any situation where a dealer/seller ignores me or is rude for a fair offer. I have had many who counteroffered and we usually meet in a good place for both.
This also!
Don't read too much into an email.
My response would have been "No, thank you. " I wouldn't necessarily say any more if I don't want to negotiate. It was one email to you. It might have been one of 100 be got.
I’m a bit surprised he didn’t counter, esp when you came in at 90% of list price. All I can think is he knows it’s a premium piece, and he’ll easily get his number.
Dave
Call him up and talk to him.
edited to add... Regarding the email reply- responding to them can be a serious time suck. Without knowing more about his particular business, maybe it's just him there on his own and he's trying to get through them as quick as he can in order to get on with other stuff.
Well, the coin has been on their website for months, so I doubt it is flying off the shelf with offers at the current time.
Did the website mention if he was considering offers?
To turn down an unsolicited offer takes time and more than likely results in no additional sales.
Maybe he was just busy and grumpy.
I would have perhaps more politely declined your offer, but it looks like he wants the number he wants and not a dime less.
I'll almost always take a 90% offer on one of my eBay items. The times I won't is when I get multiple offers. Could be the dealer has been contacted by others about the coin and he's willing to hold the line on his price.
It is not that my offer was declined, it is the way it was done that is bothersome. A simple "I cant do it on this one because it is an exceptional example" or some such would have been fine, and perhaps left the door open to a sale at the asking price.
I have had both successful attempts when contacting a seller I do not know with an offer and the result you received. It does seem rude when it happens to you but its just as possible that it was not meant that way. Perhaps in a few months if the coin is still there you might attempt a phone call and see if in that setting he is willing to accept your offer then.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I never take it personally.
Emails can be a beast to manage.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Did you already respond? What I would, and maybe you still can, do is to respond with an email thanking him for his quick response. Then add something like, "welcome hearing further ...."
If you remain interested in the coin then at least try to keep the dialogue going. You might have caught the seller on bad day. It is also possible the seller has it on consignment from someone else and may not want to go through the hassle of bothering the consigner who might just respond, "If you can't sell it for the sum you suggested, I will try it with someone else."
Try the old fashioned phone call.
I think a more polite reply from the dealer would have been advised. However, the simple one you would have preferred might have seemed like puffing and not been appreciated by someone else.
If the dealer had replied “Thank you, but I’m going to stick to my asking price”, would that have been less bothersome to you? And would you feel differently about the situation if you knew the dealer’s maximum bid was about the same as his current asking price for the coin?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Poor businessman or maybe he was having a bad day.
All he had to do was say "Thanks for contacting me with your offer, but I have to turn it down". Not so hard to do.
Yes and Yes.
Thank you. I think he might have missed an opportunity to deal with a fair and reasonable buyer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why does he have to provide justification? He said "no thanks". He didn't say "eff off." You are inferring some subtext that may not be there.
And the door is still open if you want to pay the asking price. He didn't block you from further business. He didn't insult you. All he did is say "no thanks".
With all due respect, if you are going to be that sensitive, I recommend not negotiating price. I've received much worse reactions during negotiations, even from friends. One of my best friends would start every negotiation with something like "where did you get this swill?" My response would be, "you don't have to buy it". We almost always completed the deal.
I wouldn’t expect one of your best friends to be on nearly as good of behavior as a dealer, dealing with the public. That’s a very different type of relationship.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Awe come on who was it and What was the coin already...... 😬
jk
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
I've been collecting for quite some time (my 20 year membership anniversary here Collector's Universe forums is in a couple of weeks). In that time, I have bought and sold over 7 figures in rare coins for my collections. My last registry set of US Large cents I sold through Goldbergs in 2017, was a complete Redbook set of Sheldon varieties (including the S-48). My point is I am familiar with coins and coin dealers.
When buying from dealers at shows, it was customary to have at least a little negotiation, if only so that the collector feels they are getting a good deal.
I have to say I have not had a similar response from a dealer as this episode.
Irregardless of how great you thought your offer was the seller may not be open to what he perceives as a generous discount. Many sellers have a markup structure that has classes of plan markups. One fellow I know of these are cost plus 25 pct, 50, and 100 pct. Higher markup on scarce, rare, PQ material lower markup on generics, material with lots of competition. PQ material - Nice toners, rainbow, Lots of blast coins, roll fresh blazers, PL on one side are very high in demand and will bring strong prices. I constantly study certain dealers inventories get feel on how they pricing premium material.
While I look at auction prices - What matters to me is what are my competitors selling it for. If they don’t have one (scarce low pop issue) then that puts me more in the drivers seat. I do look at how competetion may be pricing the same item. It could be some other online seller or I might take a look where a major firm like L&C Coins is on it. My goal is to get a markup over cost which is positive for the business but at same time be competitive with other sellers. Sort of like a balanced offense so some plays we are looking for a big gain, big mismatch vs the defense to get really good yardage. Other plays RB may have 5-15 yd carry not a game breaker but within team goals for that situation.
However depending on how much room the seller has he may drop it 5 pct or so in order move it if in inventory for sometime. I have taken sellers offers giving 5-10 pct discount bc item in inventory for sometime or lots of room cost wise in it.
The prices of many desirable coins continue to increase lately. It’s easy for one conclude we may be in a bull market. Consequently expect to pay what they are asking. Very rare coins that haven’t been offered in years are now appearing for sale. Don’t expect sellers to be discounting them.
What’s amazed me is the run up in USA generic dollars (common as dirt).
I was one of his few good friends. LOL. He treated everyone that way. [Not that I recommend that.]
Some people are very aggressive negotiators. Some people are very short by nature.
Look what happened on that other thread that got closed.
I'm not saying that the dealer couldn't have been more expansive. But "no thanks" about covers it, don't you think?
sounds like just a business deal that was not done.
nothing bad about it.
just let it go.
He might have paid more than 90% of list price. This coin was originally sold 9 months ago. He might have bought it from the original purchaser in the interim. He also might have sold it and had it returned. There's no way for certain to know his actual cost basis.
The coin was posted on the dealer's website a very short time after the auction last year, I just didn't realize it was the same coin I had bid on until a few days ago when I compared the certs. So I have a good idea this dealer was the purchaser from the auction, but I could be wrong.
I'd rather not say who it was as I don't want to create ill will for them. Finally, it is a little ironic that on their website is a section on collector etiquette at coin shows, which I read AND AGREE WITH ENTIRELY.
I was curious if other people had made similar unsolicited offers on coins they saw on dealer's websites.
Interesting thread. I, too, have made many offers to dealers via websites in the past year. I always try to be pleasant and try never to lowball, especially in today's market. With that said, I've found most dealers to be very amenable to negotiation and a few who are not. For example, through trial and error, I'm aware of two sites which do not negogiate and will let you know with an abrupt and curt reply. I used to take it personally. Now, I just factor the listed price into my research.
I’ve had it happen before too. To some of us, it would be nicer to get a slightly longer response (one or two sentences vs two words) but I can see the other side too (doesn’t want to be too wordy, lots of emails to reply to, bad day, etc). It can be slightly annoying but by the time you move on to the next coin, it will mostly be forgotten.
The real question is not about the dealer but are you willing to let it go again to someone else. If it’s something I’ve been looking for I don’t mind paying the extra to get it. Who knows when it will come up again for sale or another one like it. Bite the bullet and buy it. Down the road you will be glad you did.
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
I get rejected about half the time and a deal doesn’t get made. I’ve had responses range from “sure that’s fine” to “DONT EVER MESSAGE ME AGAIN” just really depends on the dealer’s personality.
Even in my very green days of collecting, if I unwittingly low balled a GOOD dealer, they would say “hey I paid X, this is what I can let it go For.” I really respect that and still buy from those same dealers.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Don't read too much into the dealer's email response. Could it have been better? Sure. But he did say "no thanks". That's polite enough. He didn't say "hell no!"
I think what bothers you most is he didn't include a counter offer or otherwise try to negotiate. Fair enough. That would bother me too. But...If it's a coin you really want, you could make another offer.
If I'm working with a dealer who is new to me, I will initiate communication with a phone call...not an email. In other words, call first and have a conversation and get to know each other just a little bit, then follow up with an email to get the details of the deal in writing to avoid mistakes or a misunderstanding. In my opinion, email and text messages can be troublesome unless the person is someone you know. A business deal needs a more human touch.
You're right, calling first would have been better. I won't be making another offer as there are more of these around, usually see them at auction several times a year. Also, a client-dealer relationship is usually built on trust, and obviously, there was a breakdown in that trust in this instance.
** A business deal needs a more human touch.**
Bingo....establish some rapport, discuss the coin in question, then politely ask if he has any room.
Obviously, you didn’t like his communication style and way of handling your offer, but I don’t see any breakdown of trust. That’s a very different subject.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
We keep talking about how the present and future of the hobby is online. Both sales and customer service are typically handled online. I totally understand the idea of phone calls, etc. but I personally believe that a successful modern dealer is one who is savvy about online etiquette, etc. it just is what it is these days I believe.
It would be nice to get more of a response, but I wouldn't read anything into it. The dealer could be unusually busy or otherwise distracted and wanted to respond vs. not respond.
Wouldn’t have bothered me at all, but I prefer the direct approach, It’s a business deal, not a marriage proposal.
You don't like to start the negotiation with a little foreplay?
"No" is a complete sentence, and "thanks" is reasonably nice. Most likely, that's all he meant.
I quite enjoy chatting with dealers on the phone, it gives me a chance for an in-hand description, it creates a new acquaintance or strengthens and existing one, and usually results in a more satisfactory outcome on both ends. As has been said, all business transactions are predicated on some level of trust, and it's best to find some common ground before suggesting a change to the offered terms. On-line business is a growing thing, but interpersonal relationships are everything when collecting unique items.
Even in-person communication is fraught with all sorts of misunderstandings and nuance. Body language, a shoulder shrug, a furrowed brow, or a slight change in voice intonation.... these things carry about 80% of the meaning and the words only about 20%. A phone call removes most of those benefits, but you still get voice inflection and a chance for immediate clarification if something is misunderstood. Terse emails leave room for tremendous ambiguity. Look at the careful prose of early mint documents for masterpiece examples of well-crafted communication. Compare that to this: UOK? FYI, I gotta get B2WB4 my BF4L finds out.
Internet personas are interesting things. A number of times I've met forum friends and been wildly surprised by their actual personalities. Most people are nicer, more genuine, and more enjoyable in person.
I made a 90% offer on a common date coin to an eBay dealer several weeks ago. His site says make an offer. He never responded.
Looks like if you want the coin you will have to pay his price.
As others have intimated, a conversation might have left you feeling better about the dealer, maybe ending in a completed transaction and maybe both parties agreeing that they will not consummate a transaction. Making a personal connection, in person or by phone, is better than an email, especially if you do not have a relationship with the other party.
The lack of face to face deals has been interesting the last year, for sure ... but like many have said, I would not read much into it, and move on.
Some people are not very communicative through email, even if they might be more approachable otherwise. That is true in areas far beyond Numismatics, for sure. As far as Numismatics go though, I tend to agree with @TurtleCat in that I think the more successful dealers have already or will master the on-line / email / message etiquette more thoroughly.
Sometimes I get a couple hundred emails a week in business (not Numismatics), which I have to spend time responding to, and I suppose some of my responses are less cordial or thoughtful than others ... so I do understand sometimes we all probably miss the potential connection we could have otherwise.
And while I appreciate the back and forth a good email or message chain can take, time is money, and I suspect sometimes we don't recognize the participants from the wannabes.
For my collections, I often make offers, ask for discounts, etc. ... and like you, I have also had some very curt responses that put me off some. Not many, but a few. Probably also like you, I view my desire to do business with those dealers less than the ones who take a little more time. In my dealer notes, I mark those who are short, curt, or seemingly inflexible as "pass or play, no dialogue".
If it's really what I want, I may decide to buy anyway and see if things get more cordial. If it's something I can find elsewhere, I often pass and wait for the next one I like from someone I like. The people I deal with and where and how I spend my money are sometimes way more important.
When I'm selling I try to respond how I would like to be responded too, although even then, sometimes I fail. Case in point ... I responded to someone recently asking about something I had for sale here in a very brief manner (although in my feeble defense, I hadn't had my coffee yet) ... maybe ten or twelve words.
Thankfully I realized my error as I was preparing to leave for work and stopped for a few minutes and wrote back a second time 30 minutes later, with a little more about his offer and the note. That opened up a positive dialogue, and we ended up doing a deal, somewhere in the middle.
Anyway ... ramble. Sorry you had this experience.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I recently called a dealer about a coin he had listed on a popular sales sight and his own website for the same price. I asked if there was any room on it. After all he had a non CAC coin priced above CAC level and at a number that would be a record price for the coin in that grade. I was told that his ENTIRE website was priced NET.
That makes my job easier. I no longer consider any of his pieces. There are way too many other coins in the sea.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Are you no longer considering any of his pieces just because that one coin was priced so high and all of his coins are priced NET? Or had you already determined that multiple other coins were priced way too high, as well?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
His pricing structure has no relevance for me.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.