thought by now the OP would have clarified his thread title to something like "why bitcoin and not gold?"
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@derryb said:
thought by now the OP would have clarified his thread title to something like "why bitcoin and not gold?"
I own both. I suck
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
How many well known corporations that hold bitcoin are not holding it on behalf of their clients or are not intimately involved in bitcoin mining or blockchain processing? Two or three?
There are hundreds of corporations that hold gold for their clients or are in the business of mining gold. Not much different than 99% of the corporations holding bitcoin.
But one negative to holding gold on a balance sheet is the utter contempt with which it is treated with respect to taxation.
But one negative to holding gold on a balance sheet is the utter contempt with which it is treated with respect to taxation.
That may be a good reason why gold doesnt even seem to be a consideration on a corporate balance sheet.
We've explored several ideas on why gold has failed to be recognized as a legitimate alternative investment.
The ease of acceptance of bitcoin appears quite conspicuous to me, especially in the presence of another asset that historically has been a "store of wealth".
Another consideration is that there may not be much incentive for corporations to hold gold, or bitcoin for that matter. As a private investor, the goal is to preserve wealth. A business has other tangible assets, and when the currency is debased, they simply raise prices or offshore (export the inflation) to some other country. It would be interesting to see how many corporate officers privately hold gold vs cryptocurrency.
@Higashiyama said: @VanHalen said: “ We've been living in irrational for well over a decade and likely will be for another decade.”
Is it possible that what we’re living in is as much a “new normal” than an extended period of irrationality?
I suppose anything is possible.
As long as we can create and dump $2 or $3 trillion USD into the till every year and keep interest rates at 0% then yeah "new normal" might describe it. But remember the $2 or $3 trillion/year will have to grow by around 50% each and every year going forward to keep up with this "new normal".
Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@Higashiyama said: @derryb said: “ Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.”
I guess we’ve been through this before , but ... three questions:
Which bankers are controlling the price of gold,
What means are they using to suppress it, and
What exactly is their motivation? Why don’t they want the price to rise?
six major bullion bankers - JP Morgan, HSBC, UBS, Scotia, and ICBC Standard Bank
futures markets - COMEX, LBMA
greed, anytime you control price you stand to reap massive profit. Profit comes from price volatility in a predetermined range. Buy, push it up, sell, push it down. Wash, rinse repeat. It's a coordinated effort with shared opportunity, otherwise one of the five would have rolled over on the others.
And, because the same govt. that has fined JPM numerous times for PM price manipulation (instead of putting them in jail) depends on them to keep gold from competing with the dollar. Soon you will see bitcoin futures on the COMEX for the same reason - price control to remove dollar competition.
As we have witnessed time after time, the roll of regulators is not to regulate what is done, it is to regulate who gets to do it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@blitzdude said:
Why on earth would someone continually sink their $$$ into such a manipulated investment? More dollars than sense?? SMH!
because they don't consider it an investment, they consider it inflation protection, a role it continues to perform quite well.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@Jimnight said:
What happens when electronics fail?
Being a semi prepper by nature I find it hard to reason why anyone would hoard something that literally disappears when the power goes out. It's a physical real world and that's where I rest my hat!
Or perhaps there was never any manipulation at all? Mere Bulgarian dreams??
Then those bullion banks sure wasted the hundreds of millions they paid in fines for manipulating the price of precious metals. LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@derryb said:
Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.
Common derryb...You've been preaching that gospel for at least 10+years along with the far right libertarian financial blog:
Zero Hedge. I still get a kick out of it, although I tend to shrug it off as being brainwashed.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Front running trades and aggressive swing trading that exacerbates short-term moves in spot price is different from controlling long term supply and demand curves whech are based on miners and refiners (and the price of labor and machine fuel) and the emotions of consumers, including industrial, jewelry, collectors, speculators, hedgers, etc. High gold prices bring additional supply. Some day they will mine the asteroid belt and then there will be plenty of gold and all the other elements.
@derryb said:
Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.
Common derryb...You've been preaching that gospel for at least 10+years along with the far right libertarian financial blog:
Zero Hedge. I still get a kick out of it, although I tend to shrug it off as being brainwashed.
Only to inform those who didn't get the email from the DoJ. After 10+ years one would think that they got the word.
I find news sources with roots outside of the US provide more accurate reports on what is going on inside of the US. Funny how many who refuse to take any stock in a non-US news source will admit how untrustworthy mainstream US news has become.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@cohodk said:
You do write some funny stuff derryb. Psychologically fascinating. Thank you.
No, thank you. It's only because I have the privilege of dealing with a couple of psychologically challenged "experts."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
This is 💩 for people living a lot longer than me. I’m happy to have direct deposit and my bills are auto pay. I sit back and blow the difference. I haven’t bought a stamp in years. Who needs bit coin.
Not to sound reductionist, but I firmly believe precious metals and crypto have an inverse relationship. As long as we continue to see crypto (basically Bitcoin) increase in value, precious metals will decrease in value. I do believe that much of what we are seeing with Bitcoin is simply hype--let's face it. It is in the news 24/7, it is the hottest thing since we invented fire, whatever.
I despise Bitcoin on moral grounds. Firstly, a large percentage of it is used to facilitate disgusting human criminality that, as a Christian, I cannot endorse. Is cash used for criminal activity? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate, as the anonymity factor is absent. Secondly, the countries that are making the most money in mining Bitcoin are not exactly the most friendly to the United States, as they are able to mine more cheaply, given the price of their electricity. Lastly, Bitcoin is positively a scourge on the environment--the sheer amount of electricity and computer hardware that it takes to "mine" something that does not physically exist seems to be a truly grotesque manifestation of post-modernism. In the final analysis, it seems to me that Bitcoin should see the ire of liberals and conservatives alike, given my thinking.
The longer Bitcoin exists, the worse this is going to get for society. It is not something that is held by the overwhelming share of the world's population. Indeed, a much smaller percentage of people hold Bitcoin, compared to precious metals. Furthermore, people are not really spending it. They are holding it. There is no velocity (to use a Keynesian term) in the number of times it is 'turning over.' I also watch quite a few videos of holders of crypto debating those who advocate for more hard assets--principally gold and silver. The thing that always strikes me is just the arrogance and condescension that those of the former show the latter.
I am, generally, a very laissez-faire capitalist, but this is one situation where I firmly believe world governments need to step in and completely and utterly crush this post-modernist cancer on our monetary system.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
there was a thread where Taxmad pointed out the 2020 1040 tax form has a question about buying or selling cryptos. Apparently an attempt to get taxpayers on record as participants, or hold them accountable later for falsifying a tax return. Being that exchanges (including cryptos) are regulated it is very likely that all crypto transactions conducted on the platforms are reported. Likewise with business retail buying and selling using cryptos. I suspect the area of concern with the feds is the use of anonymous digital wallets by individuals to transact in bitcoin and bypass tax reporting.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@stownsin said:
Not to sound reductionist, but I firmly believe precious metals and crypto have an inverse relationship. As long as we continue to see crypto (basically Bitcoin) increase in value, precious metals will decrease in value.
You must be looking at select daily charts. Otherwise both gold and cryptos have increased in value. However bitcoin's climb is much much more dramatic.
I despise Bitcoin on moral grounds. Firstly, a large percentage of it is used to facilitate disgusting human criminality that, as a Christian, I cannot endorse. Is cash used for criminal activity? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate, as the anonymity factor is absent.
One could easily argue that most crime in one way or another involves dollars. One could also argue that most transactions where dollars or merchandise are exchanged for cryptocurrencies are completely legitimate.
Secondly, the countries that are making the most money in mining Bitcoin are not exactly the most friendly to the United States, as they are able to mine more cheaply, given the price of their electricity.
Countries don't mine bitcoin. In countries where bitcoin is mined by private citizens and private companies, the cost of electricity determines their production costs. No different than mining gold in Africa compared to mining gold in the US. If "friendly to the US" was valid economic criteria China would not be stocking Walmart.
Lastly, Bitcoin is positively a scourge on the environment--the sheer amount of electricity and computer hardware that it takes to "mine" something that does not physically exist seems to be a truly grotesque manifestation of post-modernism. In the final analysis, it seems to me that Bitcoin should see the ire of liberals and conservatives alike, given my thinking.
Are they now mining gold with battery powered machinery? Pretty big carbon footprint getting it out of the ground and into your hands.
The longer Bitcoin exists, the worse this is going to get for society. It is not something that is held by the overwhelming share of the world's population. Indeed, a much smaller percentage of people hold Bitcoin, compared to precious metals. Furthermore, people are not really spending it. They are holding it. There is no velocity (to use a Keynesian term) in the number of times it is 'turning over.'
Yet it is another alternative to dying dollars, something that should always be welcomed by those forced to hold and use them.
I also watch quite a few videos of holders of crypto debating those who advocate for more hard assets--principally gold and silver. The thing that always strikes me is just the arrogance and condescension that those of the former show the latter.
This is typical any time "new-school" tries to school "old-school." Have any kids?
I am, generally, a very laissez-faire capitalist, but this is one situation where I firmly believe world governments need to step in and completely and utterly crush this post-modernist cancer on our monetary system.
So much for "live and let live." How exactly does someone else's decision to hold or use bitcoin have a negative impact on your decision to hold and use dollars, gold, stocks, bonds, real estate or any other asset? Cryptos, until crushed by regulation (which will happen because of the financial freedom they offer), are a temporary cure for our cancerous monetary system. Like gold, they are providing a store of value to otherwise declining dollars.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@stownsin said:
Not to sound reductionist, but I firmly believe precious metals and crypto have an inverse relationship. As long as we continue to see crypto (basically Bitcoin) increase in value, precious metals will decrease in value.
You must be looking at select daily charts. Otherwise both gold and cryptos have increased in value. However bitcoin's climb is much much more dramatic.
I despise Bitcoin on moral grounds. Firstly, a large percentage of it is used to facilitate disgusting human criminality that, as a Christian, I cannot endorse. Is cash used for criminal activity? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate, as the anonymity factor is absent.
One could easily argue that most crime in one way or another involves dollars. One could also argue that most transactions where dollars or merchandise are exchanged for cryptocurrencies are completely legitimate.
Secondly, the countries that are making the most money in mining Bitcoin are not exactly the most friendly to the United States, as they are able to mine more cheaply, given the price of their electricity.
Countries don't mine bitcoin. In countries where bitcoin is mined by private citizens and private companies, the cost of electricity determines their production costs. No different than mining gold in Africa compared to mining gold in the US. If "friendly to the US" was valid economic criteria China would not be stocking Walmart.
Lastly, Bitcoin is positively a scourge on the environment--the sheer amount of electricity and computer hardware that it takes to "mine" something that does not physically exist seems to be a truly grotesque manifestation of post-modernism. In the final analysis, it seems to me that Bitcoin should see the ire of liberals and conservatives alike, given my thinking.
Are they now mining gold with battery powered machinery? Pretty big carbon footprint getting it out of the ground and into your hands.
The longer Bitcoin exists, the worse this is going to get for society. It is not something that is held by the overwhelming share of the world's population. Indeed, a much smaller percentage of people hold Bitcoin, compared to precious metals. Furthermore, people are not really spending it. They are holding it. There is no velocity (to use a Keynesian term) in the number of times it is 'turning over.'
Yet it is another alternative to dying dollars, something that should always be welcomed by those forced to hold and use them.
I also watch quite a few videos of holders of crypto debating those who advocate for more hard assets--principally gold and silver. The thing that always strikes me is just the arrogance and condescension that those of the former show the latter.
This is typical any time "new-school" tries to school "old-school." Have any kids?
I am, generally, a very laissez-faire capitalist, but this is one situation where I firmly believe world governments need to step in and completely and utterly crush this post-modernist cancer on our monetary system.
So much for "live and let live." How exactly does someone else's decision to hold or use bitcoin have a negative impact on your decision to hold and use dollars, gold, stocks, bonds, real estate or any other asset? Cryptos, until crushed by regulation (which will happen because of the financial freedom they offer), are a temporary cure for our cancerous monetary system. Like gold, they are providing a store of value to otherwise declining dollars.
derryb,
I commend you for taking the time to answer all of his points. I would like to also thank cohodk, jmski52, OPA, Bailey, and many others who I might have failed to mention that reply on these threads. I have learned quite a bit over the last 10 years.
Warm Regards,
BC
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Hey Derryb, mr/mrs negative. You work for the IRS or the govt.? I bet you are so bored! In my short time here i have seen nothing but you regularly contradicting yourself. Take a vacation and get a life. I believe i speak for many on here. Start tour own thread and call it “I, Me, Mine, Myself”
I'd be careful about badmouthing someone in multiple threads over the course of several days. It could certainly be considered harrassment, and it wouldn't surprise me if a moderator gets involved if it continues.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@derryb Thank you for the response. I first take exception to the following counterpoint you make:
"Countries don't mine bitcoin. In countries where bitcoin is mined by private citizens and private companies, the cost of electricity determines their production costs. No different than mining gold in Africa compared to mining gold in the US. If "friendly to the US" was valid economic criteria China would not be stocking Walmart."
China is a country that deprives its citizens of basic freedoms and is OFFICIALLY an atheist state, which likely explains why they do not honor most trade deals and consistently rob us of intellectual property. A country that declares itself to be officially atheist and indeed openly hostile to those who believe in God, is not a country most should wish to align themselves with. I bring this up because China is, in point of fact, the biggest miner of Bitcoin. Even though they have stated that they are cracking down on the mining, they don't tell the truth. Bribery is all too commonplace in China. In fact, electricity is so cheap in China that many companies route much of their electricity to Bitcoin mining operations. Dirty stuff.
Given their system of government, which privies party leaders with unequal opportunities, I would postulate that the enormous "hashrate" China enjoys--65%--is not coming from--as you say--simple, honest private individuals. Indeed, in a country like China, the individual cannot be separated from his communist government--the collectivist mindset of Marxism places no value on such individuals, which prevents them from being able to possess any semblance of morality.
You will also note from the graph I shared that Russia is practically tied with the US for combined hashrate, which is around 7%. Looking through the list, we see that Iran--another oppressive regime--seems to like getting in on this action. With respect to Iran, my guess is they are mining crypto in order to offset sanctions that were placed on their regime for terrorist activities.
@derryb You also bring up the fact that the mining of gold is not exactly environmentally friendly. In some parts of the world, I agree that this is the case. In more developed nations with more environmental regulations, it is less so the case. Nonetheless, at least this mining is resulting in something that is tangible and can be used for invaluable technologies and medicines that are used to treat cancer. Bitcoin has no physical manifestation. It simply takes and gives nothing back to humankind.
Note that your chart is by "country" and not "government." Still trying to figure out what your distaste for the politics of China has to do with the acceptance of bitcoin as a viable asset. Just can't digest the relationship. It appears your dislike of bitcoin is based more on moral/religious reasons than on logical investment/financial reasoning. We all have our reasons for investing or not investing in certain assets but when those reasons are more than a question of risk or profitability we should at re-evaluate them in the event they are preventing us from an otherwise good investment opportunity. For example I despise the "war machine" and at the cost of profit refuse to invest in stocks that profit from war.
For part two of your disagreement you fail to realize that bitcoin has given the world blockchain technology that has and will continue to prove very valuable to the digital financial world. It will likely lay the groundwork for central bank currencies and numerous private bank endeavors.
My point in all of my pro crypto posts is that regardless of their "realness" they have and will hopefully continue to offer real profits. They are currently a profitable asset to me and nothing more. Apologies to anyone I have offended in sharing my crypto opportunity excitement.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Read up on your terminology and mind your own business.
As you pointed out, this is a public forum so this is as much my business as it is yours, and your badmouthing a respected forum member is much different than a simple disagreement.
You might want to consult the PCGS Forum Rules and Guidelines, particularly Rule #2, but I'm not holding my breath about it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
If you want to make currency then stay out of gold. IMHO it's a response to Putin and Russian issues $1600 gold/dollar ratio etc. aka a papering over strike back at Russia. If Gold were money; TODAY! It would be $4500 per ounce.
If you want to find something raise the price of it.
Japan is in a Yen meltdown on top of all their last 35 years of troubles.
Where are all the Honda and Toyota automobiles? Dealers aren't chock full of them.
my gold did not fail. I bought a car last year with some of it at 2006 car prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Comments
thought by now the OP would have clarified his thread title to something like "why bitcoin and not gold?"
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I own both. I suck
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What happens when electronics (AI) take over?
No doubt about that. When trillions of USD are available at the tap of a keyboard you bet they will stay irrational.
We've been living in irrational for well over a decade and likely will be for another decade.
Think the rain will hurt the rhubarb?
@VanHalen said: “ We've been living in irrational for well over a decade and likely will be for another decade.”
Is it possible that what we’re living in is as much a “new normal” than an extended period of irrationality?
How many well known corporations that hold bitcoin are not holding it on behalf of their clients or are not intimately involved in bitcoin mining or blockchain processing? Two or three?
There are hundreds of corporations that hold gold for their clients or are in the business of mining gold. Not much different than 99% of the corporations holding bitcoin.
But one negative to holding gold on a balance sheet is the utter contempt with which it is treated with respect to taxation.
That would be boring and non-controversial. Lets make life exciting!!
Besides, i thought you had an affinity for all things poorly contextualized.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
That may be a good reason why gold doesnt even seem to be a consideration on a corporate balance sheet.
We've explored several ideas on why gold has failed to be recognized as a legitimate alternative investment.
The ease of acceptance of bitcoin appears quite conspicuous to me, especially in the presence of another asset that historically has been a "store of wealth".
Which raises another question....
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Another consideration is that there may not be much incentive for corporations to hold gold, or bitcoin for that matter. As a private investor, the goal is to preserve wealth. A business has other tangible assets, and when the currency is debased, they simply raise prices or offshore (export the inflation) to some other country. It would be interesting to see how many corporate officers privately hold gold vs cryptocurrency.
I suppose anything is possible.
As long as we can create and dump $2 or $3 trillion USD into the till every year and keep interest rates at 0% then yeah "new normal" might describe it. But remember the $2 or $3 trillion/year will have to grow by around 50% each and every year going forward to keep up with this "new normal".
You guys can do the math.
Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@derryb said: “ Gold is failing to rise in price because its price is currently determined by bankers.”
I guess we’ve been through this before
, but ... three questions:
Which bankers are controlling the price of gold,
What means are they using to suppress it, and
What exactly is their motivation? Why don’t they want the price to rise?
And, because the same govt. that has fined JPM numerous times for PM price manipulation (instead of putting them in jail) depends on them to keep gold from competing with the dollar. Soon you will see bitcoin futures on the COMEX for the same reason - price control to remove dollar competition.
As we have witnessed time after time, the roll of regulators is not to regulate what is done, it is to regulate who gets to do it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Why on earth would someone continually sink their $$$ into such a manipulated investment? More dollars than sense?? SMH!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Not sure there is a failure as much as a disconnect. The question is : what is the Bitcoin to Rhodium ratio ?
because they don't consider it an investment, they consider it inflation protection, a role it continues to perform quite well.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Why on earth would someone continually sink their $$$ into such a manipulated investment?
Because there is no counterparty and because there are very, very few better options - each of which have their own set of pluses & minuses.
I knew it would happen.
Or perhaps there was never any manipulation at all? Mere Bulgarian dreams??
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Being a semi prepper by nature I find it hard to reason why anyone would hoard something that literally disappears when the power goes out. It's a physical real world and that's where I rest my hat!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Then those bullion banks sure wasted the hundreds of millions they paid in fines for manipulating the price of precious metals. LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Common derryb...You've been preaching that gospel for at least 10+years along with the far right libertarian financial blog:
Zero Hedge. I still get a kick out of it, although I tend to shrug it off as being brainwashed.
Front running trades and aggressive swing trading that exacerbates short-term moves in spot price is different from controlling long term supply and demand curves whech are based on miners and refiners (and the price of labor and machine fuel) and the emotions of consumers, including industrial, jewelry, collectors, speculators, hedgers, etc. High gold prices bring additional supply. Some day they will mine the asteroid belt and then there will be plenty of gold and all the other elements.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Only to inform those who didn't get the email from the DoJ. After 10+ years one would think that they got the word.
I find news sources with roots outside of the US provide more accurate reports on what is going on inside of the US. Funny how many who refuse to take any stock in a non-US news source will admit how untrustworthy mainstream US news has become.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
You do write some funny stuff derryb. Psychologically fascinating. Thank you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
No, thank you. It's only because I have the privilege of dealing with a couple of psychologically challenged "experts."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
This is 💩 for people living a lot longer than me. I’m happy to have direct deposit and my bills are auto pay. I sit back and blow the difference. I haven’t bought a stamp in years. Who needs bit coin.
Not to sound reductionist, but I firmly believe precious metals and crypto have an inverse relationship. As long as we continue to see crypto (basically Bitcoin) increase in value, precious metals will decrease in value. I do believe that much of what we are seeing with Bitcoin is simply hype--let's face it. It is in the news 24/7, it is the hottest thing since we invented fire, whatever.
I despise Bitcoin on moral grounds. Firstly, a large percentage of it is used to facilitate disgusting human criminality that, as a Christian, I cannot endorse. Is cash used for criminal activity? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate, as the anonymity factor is absent. Secondly, the countries that are making the most money in mining Bitcoin are not exactly the most friendly to the United States, as they are able to mine more cheaply, given the price of their electricity. Lastly, Bitcoin is positively a scourge on the environment--the sheer amount of electricity and computer hardware that it takes to "mine" something that does not physically exist seems to be a truly grotesque manifestation of post-modernism. In the final analysis, it seems to me that Bitcoin should see the ire of liberals and conservatives alike, given my thinking.
The longer Bitcoin exists, the worse this is going to get for society. It is not something that is held by the overwhelming share of the world's population. Indeed, a much smaller percentage of people hold Bitcoin, compared to precious metals. Furthermore, people are not really spending it. They are holding it. There is no velocity (to use a Keynesian term) in the number of times it is 'turning over.' I also watch quite a few videos of holders of crypto debating those who advocate for more hard assets--principally gold and silver. The thing that always strikes me is just the arrogance and condescension that those of the former show the latter.
I am, generally, a very laissez-faire capitalist, but this is one situation where I firmly believe world governments need to step in and completely and utterly crush this post-modernist cancer on our monetary system.
Didn't I read in a recent thread that gov.com has figured out how to tax bitcoin profits. If that's the case, the bitcoin issue will resolve itself.
I knew it would happen.
yep, older than dirt - capital gains taxes.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
yep, older than dirt - capital gains taxes.
I was thinking of a thread where it was discussed that gov.com is tracking bitcoin transactions. Any truth to that?
I knew it would happen.
there was a thread where Taxmad pointed out the 2020 1040 tax form has a question about buying or selling cryptos. Apparently an attempt to get taxpayers on record as participants, or hold them accountable later for falsifying a tax return. Being that exchanges (including cryptos) are regulated it is very likely that all crypto transactions conducted on the platforms are reported. Likewise with business retail buying and selling using cryptos. I suspect the area of concern with the feds is the use of anonymous digital wallets by individuals to transact in bitcoin and bypass tax reporting.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
You must be looking at select daily charts. Otherwise both gold and cryptos have increased in value. However bitcoin's climb is much much more dramatic.
One could easily argue that most crime in one way or another involves dollars. One could also argue that most transactions where dollars or merchandise are exchanged for cryptocurrencies are completely legitimate.
Countries don't mine bitcoin. In countries where bitcoin is mined by private citizens and private companies, the cost of electricity determines their production costs. No different than mining gold in Africa compared to mining gold in the US. If "friendly to the US" was valid economic criteria China would not be stocking Walmart.
Are they now mining gold with battery powered machinery? Pretty big carbon footprint getting it out of the ground and into your hands.
Yet it is another alternative to dying dollars, something that should always be welcomed by those forced to hold and use them.
This is typical any time "new-school" tries to school "old-school." Have any kids?
So much for "live and let live." How exactly does someone else's decision to hold or use bitcoin have a negative impact on your decision to hold and use dollars, gold, stocks, bonds, real estate or any other asset? Cryptos, until crushed by regulation (which will happen because of the financial freedom they offer), are a temporary cure for our cancerous monetary system. Like gold, they are providing a store of value to otherwise declining dollars.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Taxes? You pay taxes?? lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
derryb,
I commend you for taking the time to answer all of his points. I would like to also thank cohodk, jmski52, OPA, Bailey, and many others who I might have failed to mention that reply on these threads. I have learned quite a bit over the last 10 years.
Warm Regards,
BC
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Hey Derryb, mr/mrs negative. You work for the IRS or the govt.? I bet you are so bored! In my short time here i have seen nothing but you regularly contradicting yourself. Take a vacation and get a life. I believe i speak for many on here. Start tour own thread and call it “I, Me, Mine, Myself”
I'd be careful about badmouthing someone in multiple threads over the course of several days. It could certainly be considered harrassment, and it wouldn't surprise me if a moderator gets involved if it continues.
I knew it would happen.
Jmski52
verbINFORMAL
verb: badmouth
criticize (someone) behind their back.
"no one wants to hire an individual who bad-mouths a prior employer"
I am only calling out BS and ignorance on a public forum, not behind the back. Read up on your terminology and mind your own business.
@derryb Thank you for the response. I first take exception to the following counterpoint you make:
"Countries don't mine bitcoin. In countries where bitcoin is mined by private citizens and private companies, the cost of electricity determines their production costs. No different than mining gold in Africa compared to mining gold in the US. If "friendly to the US" was valid economic criteria China would not be stocking Walmart."
China is a country that deprives its citizens of basic freedoms and is OFFICIALLY an atheist state, which likely explains why they do not honor most trade deals and consistently rob us of intellectual property. A country that declares itself to be officially atheist and indeed openly hostile to those who believe in God, is not a country most should wish to align themselves with. I bring this up because China is, in point of fact, the biggest miner of Bitcoin. Even though they have stated that they are cracking down on the mining, they don't tell the truth. Bribery is all too commonplace in China. In fact, electricity is so cheap in China that many companies route much of their electricity to Bitcoin mining operations. Dirty stuff.
Given their system of government, which privies party leaders with unequal opportunities, I would postulate that the enormous "hashrate" China enjoys--65%--is not coming from--as you say--simple, honest private individuals. Indeed, in a country like China, the individual cannot be separated from his communist government--the collectivist mindset of Marxism places no value on such individuals, which prevents them from being able to possess any semblance of morality.
You will also note from the graph I shared that Russia is practically tied with the US for combined hashrate, which is around 7%. Looking through the list, we see that Iran--another oppressive regime--seems to like getting in on this action. With respect to Iran, my guess is they are mining crypto in order to offset sanctions that were placed on their regime for terrorist activities.
@derryb You also bring up the fact that the mining of gold is not exactly environmentally friendly. In some parts of the world, I agree that this is the case. In more developed nations with more environmental regulations, it is less so the case. Nonetheless, at least this mining is resulting in something that is tangible and can be used for invaluable technologies and medicines that are used to treat cancer. Bitcoin has no physical manifestation. It simply takes and gives nothing back to humankind.
Note that your chart is by "country" and not "government." Still trying to figure out what your distaste for the politics of China has to do with the acceptance of bitcoin as a viable asset. Just can't digest the relationship. It appears your dislike of bitcoin is based more on moral/religious reasons than on logical investment/financial reasoning. We all have our reasons for investing or not investing in certain assets but when those reasons are more than a question of risk or profitability we should at re-evaluate them in the event they are preventing us from an otherwise good investment opportunity. For example I despise the "war machine" and at the cost of profit refuse to invest in stocks that profit from war.
For part two of your disagreement you fail to realize that bitcoin has given the world blockchain technology that has and will continue to prove very valuable to the digital financial world. It will likely lay the groundwork for central bank currencies and numerous private bank endeavors.
My point in all of my pro crypto posts is that regardless of their "realness" they have and will hopefully continue to offer real profits. They are currently a profitable asset to me and nothing more. Apologies to anyone I have offended in sharing my crypto opportunity excitement.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Read up on your terminology and mind your own business.
As you pointed out, this is a public forum so this is as much my business as it is yours, and your badmouthing a respected forum member is much different than a simple disagreement.
You might want to consult the PCGS Forum Rules and Guidelines, particularly Rule #2, but I'm not holding my breath about it.
I knew it would happen.
Buying opportunity.
If you want to make currency then stay out of gold. IMHO it's a response to Putin and Russian issues $1600 gold/dollar ratio etc. aka a papering over strike back at Russia. If Gold were money; TODAY! It would be $4500 per ounce.
If you want to find something raise the price of it.
Japan is in a Yen meltdown on top of all their last 35 years of troubles.
Where are all the Honda and Toyota automobiles? Dealers aren't chock full of them.
There are too many reasons why
You want to make currency stay out of gold
How did gold fail ? It has never failed me.
The alternative is bread. Tastes good with meat or peanut butter.
China Covid spook pause is all
Loves me some shiny!
my gold did not fail. I bought a car last year with some of it at 2006 car prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey