Anyone here still on the lookout for counterfeits on Ebay? I'm thinking this 09 S-VDB is fake!

MarkW63

The dot after the V is to low
No dot after the D at all,
It looks to be fake toned as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent/274710190254?hash=item3ff600d8ae:g:wcUAAOSwOMVgQ~m3

ifthevamzarockin

Mint mark placement looks a little low.

LanceNewmanOCC

PerryHall

Looks like a real coin with an added mintmark. The mintmark is the wrong shape. There are some coins that just shouldn't be bought raw on eBay. This is one of them.

dcarr

@PerryHall said:
Looks like a real coin with an added mintmark. The mintmark is the wrong shape.

Agree, and the mint mark is tilted unlike any of the four known dies.

Jimnight

Same as above.

scooter25

@PerryHall said:
Looks like a real coin with an added mintmark. The mintmark is the wrong shape. There are some coins that just shouldn't be bought raw on eBay. This is one of them.

This is part of the reason I’m thinking about switching to only slabbed coins.

MarkW63

Where's the dot (period) between the D & the B in the designer's initials, what's there looks to be well struck , so the missing period seems strange to me?
The above comment by "PerryHall" is another point I noticed about the coin, if its a genuine its in near pristine condition and in such a condition its not likely to have made it this far along in its history and not have been graded (slabbed).
The designer's initials looks like that of the Philly mint, so I'm thinking that the missing period may have been removed to hind its incorrect location.
If you look at the right leg of the V in the designer's initials and its period and compare them the philly mint vs the San. mint the Philly mint's period appears lower to the V
I know the leg of the V initial is angled, but if you strike a 90 degree line out from the right leg and move it downward until it crosses to the period you can see that the Philly mint period is lower on the leg.

WAYNEAS

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

Thanks for the guide pics. @LanceNewmanOCC. I will save for future references.

Wayne

WAYNEAS

@MarkW63 said:

The dot after the V is to low
No dot after the D at all,
It looks to be fake toned as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent/274710190254?hash=item3ff600d8ae:g:wcUAAOSwOMVgQ~m3

To me the coin has been altered by adding the mint mark. As mentioned above it is really slanted.
You should also inspect the side of the rim edge in the area of the mint mark to see if it might have been "embossed" and the repair site covered up.
Have you researched the sellers history on what coins they have sold and the Negative / Neutral feedback left?
Wayne

AUandAG

added mint mark is my guess as well.

bob

MarkW63

@WAYNEAS said:

@MarkW63 said:

The dot after the V is to low
No dot after the D at all,
It looks to be fake toned as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent/274710190254?hash=item3ff600d8ae:g:wcUAAOSwOMVgQ~m3

To me the coin has been altered by adding the mint mark. As mentioned above it is really slanted.
You should also inspect the side of the rim edge in the area of the mint mark to see if it might have been "embossed" and the repair site covered up.
Have you researched the sellers history on what coins they have sold and the Negative / Neutral feedback left?
Wayne

Wayne, a few months back I went through getting ripped off on a deal on a S-VDB, it turned out to be a FAKE. Well, that whole road has its own history and I was able to finely get a deal on another one that came from a coin dealer and it was graded. So, now I'm not looking for another one, but from time to time I can't help but to go on ebay and see if I can spot a listed fake. At one time there was a few people on here that scouted around on ebay for counterfeits and made contacts to get ebay to pull the listings. That's what's going on with this one, I'm thinking its a FAKE, it makes good conversation on the forum, maybe it'll get the attention needed to get it taken off the market.
Mark

jesbroken

I agree with the counterfeit prognosis. Too much wrong to be right.
Jim

Edited to add: No longer available

jmlanzaf

@MarkW63 said:
Where's the dot (period) between the D & the B in the designer's initials, what's there looks to be well struck , so the missing period seems strange to me?
The above comment by "PerryHall" is another point I noticed about the coin, if its a genuine its in near pristine condition and in such a condition its not likely to have made it this far along in its history and not have been graded (slabbed).
The designer's initials looks like that of the Philly mint, so I'm thinking that the missing period may have been removed to hind its incorrect location.
If you look at the right leg of the V in the designer's initials and its period and compare them the philly mint vs the San. mint the Philly mint's period appears lower to the V
I know the leg of the V initial is angled, but if you strike a 90 degree line out from the right leg and move it downward until it crosses to the period you can see that the Philly mint period is lower on the leg.

A missing dot is quite common on such coins due to a grease-filled die. It's a very small feature and easy to eliminate with a dirty die.

It is, as mentioned, quite possibly a legitimate 1909 VDB coin with an added "S".

MarkW63

@jmlanzaf said:

@MarkW63 said:
Where's the dot (period) between the D & the B in the designer's initials, what's there looks to be well struck , so the missing period seems strange to me?
The above comment by "PerryHall" is another point I noticed about the coin, if its a genuine its in near pristine condition and in such a condition its not likely to have made it this far along in its history and not have been graded (slabbed).
The designer's initials looks like that of the Philly mint, so I'm thinking that the missing period may have been removed to hind its incorrect location.
If you look at the right leg of the V in the designer's initials and its period and compare them the philly mint vs the San. mint the Philly mint's period appears lower to the V
I know the leg of the V initial is angled, but if you strike a 90 degree line out from the right leg and move it downward until it crosses to the period you can see that the Philly mint period is lower on the leg.

A missing dot is quite common on such coins due to a grease-filled die. It's a very small feature and easy to eliminate with a dirty die.

It is, as mentioned, quite possibly a legitimate 1909 VDB coin with an added "S".

Well, when we talk about a lot of the counterfeit 09 S VDB I take it that an altered 09 VDB Philly Mint is still a counterfeit 09 S VDB, sort of like the 14 D that is often counterfeited via a 1944 D
The dropped period (dot) to the right of the V is correct for the Philly minted 09 VDB.
Thanks for your comment!

ricko

It has been pulled.... Good work.... Looks like an added MM to me as well.... A Philadelphia cent originally. Cheers, RickO

WAYNEAS

Purchasing raw coins by pictures alone is extremely difficult and only compounded by the many fakes made "overseas" being put up for sale. It is so bad, that I will not buy an ungraded coin. I stay with TPG coins. Even then I want sharp pictures of both sides of the coin and the hologram. I'll ask the seller to provide them and if they don't, I will not pursue their item. I enter their name into the saved sellers list and add a note as to why I won't deal with them again. Counterfeit slabs are getting better and better every day. A loss of only $50.00 is a big problem for me.
There are many on here that regularly seek and ID counterfeits and take action to have them removed. I really appreciate the fact that they do because when they identify one, I scrutinize it to no end. Knowledge is power.
Wayne

MarkW63

So, if I occasionally scan ebay for 09-S-VDB's looking for FAKES its okay to good If I post them on here? I'm getting better at spotting at lest the likely fakes now

rec78

@MarkW63 said:
So, if I occasionally scan ebay for 09-S-VDB's looking for FAKES its okay to good If I post them on here? I'm getting better at spotting at lest the likely fakes now

It is definitely a plus to post possible fakes on suspicious ebay auctions here. There are many experts on this website for all sorts of fake coins. Most collectors are just casual collectors and not specialists. We can take down auctions as we have here. We can always have a discussion prior to reporting. Sometimes the seller don't know that their coin is a fake and an email written properly can get the seller to take down the auction. Other times, members here will help to end the auction by reporting them. You help new collectors by giving them some of your knowledge about fake coins. I would say post as many as you find. This is really a good thread and I strongly recommend you keep it up.

MarkW63

@rec78 said:

@MarkW63 said:
So, if I occasionally scan ebay for 09-S-VDB's looking for FAKES its okay to good If I post them on here? I'm getting better at spotting at lest the likely fakes now

It is definitely a plus to post possible fakes on suspicious ebay auctions here. There are many experts on this website for all sorts of fake coins. Most collectors are just casual collectors and not specialists. We can take down auctions as we have here. We can always have a discussion prior to reporting. Sometimes the seller don't know that their coin is a fake and an email written properly can get the seller to take down the auction. Other times, members here will help to end the auction by reporting them. You help new collectors by giving them some of your knowledge about fake coins. I would say post as many as you find. This is really a good thread and I strongly recommend you keep it up.

Thank you!
I just wanted to make sure what I was doing was okay and was maybe accomplishing something. After I got burn on my first deal on buying an 09 S VDB I dug in pretty deep (researching) the counterfeits (fakes) for nearly a year, so, now I can't help myself whenever I'm on ebay looking through the 90 S VDB's for fakes, I'm not an expert so when I post them here I always post them as POSSIBLE fakes, and what looks to be MAYBE fake about them, from there I let the experts figure them out.
Its good to know that posting them here isn't going to get me in some kind trouble. My landing here was pretty much a crash landing but, all seem to be good now!
Mark

krueger

I have taken many counterfeit diagnostic classes from some of the industry experts.
I am not an expert but I have some knowledge.
Recently I have seen a coin in each of an Heritage auction an a stacks auction.
The heritage coin was heavily toned with a weak strike which said to me it was a plated copper as I was very familiar with the issues silver and coppers. so I was suspecious that the graders probably never knew about silver plated copper issues.
I have examples in my collection. They are rare.

The stacks coin I was interested in till,I saw many small pox depressions all over surfaces not made by other coin hits. Plus some work on the dies coming off the denticles. To much preponderance of counterfeit characteristics.
Both coins were slabbed
I have called out counterfeits in dealers cases before only to be ignored as I knew nothing. This is why I said nothing
To the auction houses. Though I have collected both these coins for 45 years.

The point of all this discussion is educate yourself and understand there are counterfeit coins out there slabs
, flips, 2x2's. I have had friends buy them. Only to be told what they are later.
Always Keep learning.

MarkW63

@krueger said:
I have taken many counterfeit diagnostic classes from some of the industry experts.
I am not an expert but I have some knowledge.
Recently I have seen a coin in each of an Heritage auction an a stacks auction.
The heritage coin was heavily toned with a weak strike which said to me it was a plated copper as I was very familiar with the issues silver and coppers. so I was suspecious that the graders probably never knew about silver plated copper issues.
I have examples in my collection. They are rare.

The stacks coin I was interested in till,I saw many small pox depressions all over surfaces not made by other coin hits. Plus some work on the dies coming off the denticles. To much preponderance of counterfeit characteristics.
Both coins were slabbed
I have called out counterfeits in dealers cases before only to be ignored as I knew nothing. This is why I said nothing
To the auction houses. Though I have collected both these coins for 45 years.

The point of all this discussion is educate yourself and understand there are counterfeit coins out there slabs
, flips, 2x2's. I have had friends buy them. Only to be told what they are later.
Always Keep learning.

Let me ask you to make a judgement call on this coin. I posted this one on here sometime back and it went back and forth no being questionable, to real but badly damaged to of course FAKE. It was listed on ebay and it did sell, I feel certain myself that its a Cast counterfeit of a real coin. Being a mechanic for many years I've seen LOTS of cast metal and this coin just looks like every piece of cast anything I've ever seen.
I get that it has everything in the right place, but its my understanding that when they cast a fake, the cast (form) is made using the real coin.
Is this a "Cast" 09S VDB?

PerryHall

@MarkW63 That 09svdb is probably struck from a cast die.

MarkW63

@PerryHall said:
@MarkW63 That 09svdb is probably struck from a cast die.

That is an interesting thought about using a set of CAST DIES to strike coins. I guess in my little pea-brain I thought the likely was to make a CAST mold of a real coin, then use that mold to pour (cast) the coins.

krueger

Poster child for a cast coin however it was made.
So bad I may keep the photo in my counterfeit database.

When in a B&M coin
shop ask to see his proverbial black box of counterfeits quite instructive.
Some are a no brained others spend 20 minutes stiudying.

MarkW63

@krueger said:
Poster child for a cast coin however it was made.
So bad I may keep the photo in my counterfeit database.

When in a B&M coin
shop ask to see his proverbial black box of counterfeits quite instructive.
Some are a no brained others spend 20 minutes studying.

Here is a picture of another cast 09S-VDB, I ran across this in another forum long before I seen the one go up on ebay, the person didn't post a picture of the reverse of the coin, but the topic was about Cast coins. I tried later on to find the topic again but I couldn't. I had a computer go down and I lost a lot of favorites (bookmarks).
When most people talk about a counterfeit 09S-VDB in most cases they look for slightly out of place details. But, with a cast coin everything that supposed to be there to make it a genuine is there because it a cast of a genuine coin.
Here is "Cast" case # 2

PerryHall

These counterfeits are not cast. They are struck with false dies that have been cast using a real coin or some other transfer process.