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Provenance and Cancel Culture

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    If you want a serious answer, until Breen is canceled, why are we canceling anyone else?

    I was waiting for that name to pop up!

    It's the obvious example. I don't know that I'm aware of anyone with a worse history.

    I suppose there could be some slave traders in the 19th century. But I think Breen might still "win" that comparison

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Two thoughts here.  First one.  Who are we to cancel history. Don't want to get political but there is a certain faction of our society today trying to eliminate history. Removing statues, eliminating books and names etc. " they "  find offensive. Who here agrees with that ? 
    Secondly, where does the short time owners fit into provenance. Not just talking about dealers, but should they be included ?   Collectors or dealers or who have had a coin in their personal set for a short period of time, how long of a period of ownership to be included in the provenance of a coin ?
    

    Does the intent of a collector or dealer in owning a coin have anything to do with provenance ?
    I'll use Laura Sperber as an example. If she " personally buys a coin, " holds it for a short time, and then sells it should her name be included in the provenance of that coin ? Now if she purchases a coin and quickly sells it, I don't feel she or any other dealer should be included in the provenance.

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    To me there is only one point of provenance, to determine the validity of the collectible. In the art world, an unbroken chain is extremely important. So to answer some questions (my opinion only):

    1) I would include dealers as a mention in the chain, but not as an owner. For example, "Simpson (purchased from Legend Oct 2013)".

    2) The whole point of provenance is an unbroken chain and purposely excluding people defeats that purpose. The purpose of the chain is not vanity, it is to determine authenticity.

    3) Any coin important enough for provenance to matter doesn't need provenance on the slab.

    4) It would behoove the coin community to continue establishing unbroken provenance for important coins and documenting it thoroughly. Fakes are only going to get better. It also helps deter thieves.

    Provenance for vanity's sake is up to the individual. If a coin once was owned by Col. Green, and that's important to you, but was also owned by some less savory individuals, go ahead and exclude them from the slab label.

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know 1 dealer that likes to get a new number so they can take another run at CAC & call it "fresh".
    This kills any history/provenance the coin had but they often pocket more money.
    Very sad.

  • TiborTibor Posts: 3,543 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How 'bout Sheldon from Large Cent fame and trading/stealing from the ANS?

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    This world I tell you. People have nothing to do they find anything and I mean anything to complain about. Why don't just cancel it all....names of countries, planets, sports, the sun, the moon and I mean all of it. Rip off the bandage so they can see they are nothing special.

    Didn't congress already vote on the sun and the moon - making them planet neutral?

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tom147 said:
    Two thoughts here. First one. Who are we to cancel history. Don't want to get political but there is a certain faction of our society today trying to eliminate history. Removing statues, eliminating books and names etc. " they " find offensive. Who here agrees with that ?
    Secondly, where does the short time owners fit into provenance. Not just talking about dealers, but should they be included ? Collectors or dealers or who have had a coin in their personal set for a short period of time, how long of a period of ownership to be included in the provenance of a coin ?
    Does the intent of a collector or dealer in owning a coin have anything to do with provenance ?
    I'll use Laura Sperber as an example. If she " personally buys a coin, " holds it for a short time, and then sells it should her name be included in the provenance of that coin ? Now if she purchases a coin and quickly sells it, I don't feel she or any other dealer should be included in the provenance.

    No! Not part of a collection - just for sale.

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭✭

    Keep the provenance as a record. No reason to not include any name. If someone does not like the name - they don't have to buy it! Easy as that. I like to track the history of my coins and who owned them.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 9:10AM

    @ReadyFireAim said:
    I know 1 dealer that likes to get a new number so they can take another run at CAC & call it "fresh".
    This kills any history/provenance the coin had but they often pocket more money.
    Very sad.

    I see this happen all the time and is a major reason "bigger" coins can show up with no provenance. A lot of provenance is purposely lost through this behavior which is unfortunate for history, but beneficial for financial return as you mention.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Such a stupid term. Just like PC. These terms are made up by people who want to manipulate you.

    PC to me just means being nice to one another.

    Cancel culture, means to stop idolizing the Confederate traitors to this great country, and cancel Talk show hosts who lie to their audiences.

    The word Culture is not restricted to just one thing and apparently neither is cancel culture.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 9:11AM

    @Tom147 said:
    Two thoughts here. First one. Who are we to cancel history. Don't want to get political but there is a certain faction of our society today trying to eliminate history. Removing statues, eliminating books and names etc. " they " find offensive. Who here agrees with that ?
    Secondly, where does the short time owners fit into provenance. Not just talking about dealers, but should they be included ? Collectors or dealers or who have had a coin in their personal set for a short period of time, how long of a period of ownership to be included in the provenance of a coin ?
    Does the intent of a collector or dealer in owning a coin have anything to do with provenance ?
    I'll use Laura Sperber as an example. If she " personally buys a coin, " holds it for a short time, and then sells it should her name be included in the provenance of that coin ? Now if she purchases a coin and quickly sells it, I don't feel she or any other dealer should be included in the provenance.

    Good discussion.

    I think it depends for time frame.

    For example, Kevin Lipton had the Dunham Dollar for a short amount of time but is a major pat of the story of how the coin got to the current long-time collector. I think he may even have sold the coin before he had physically taken possession of it?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 9:19AM

    Regarding provenance chain, many people, even here, feel that certain collector-owners should not have their name on a provenance or even slab insert for certain coins, even though they owned them. For example, DLH is a prominent example where he is selling coins he owns with his provenance as he builds his collection, and many people have said the provenance should not be associated with the coin and they would remove the insert themselves if they owned the coin. Ted Naftzger is another collector whose ownership has a similar view from collectors that disagree with the provenance attachment.

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭✭✭

    why would the past owners of a coin matter anyways unless they are someone who is part of the US history or did something major to influence the world then it may matter , but otherwise no

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We have to be thoughtful and careful of our words here, or we might be next...

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 9:19AM

    @jwitten said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Such a stupid term. Just like PC. These terms are made up by people who want to manipulate you.

    PC to me just means being nice to one another.

    Cancel culture, means to stop idolizing the Confederate traitors to this great country, and cancel Talk show hosts who lie to their audiences.

    The problem is, they are only wanting to cancel the side they disagree with. Heck, they are even trying to cancel Lincoln these days.

    To be fair, who would want to cancel someone with whom they agree? You'd be canceling yourself!!! [Which is the next big thing! LOL]

    There's actually a whole lot of coins that need to be canceled. We should probably melt them ALL down: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR for sure. JFK might be safe for now, although his relationships with women might make him suspect also.

    GOOD NEWS!!! We're getting brand new circulating coinage!

    Digital dollars can't get here soon enough.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 9:26AM

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    We have to be thoughtful and careful of our words here, or we might be next...

    Agree. Everyone be mindful here.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,966 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To not acknowledge a famous person's ownership, even a criminal, is an attempt to change and control history. I believe that the largest selection of coin books owned by collectors would be Walter Breen's books, yet what a criminal. But do we burn the books or lie about their existence and their contributiions? I would think not. We have no idea how many famous coin owners, designers or creators were criminals of some sort. We only know of those caught. Let it go and let the coins history, at least, be accurate.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @jwitten said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Such a stupid term. Just like PC. These terms are made up by people who want to manipulate you.

    PC to me just means being nice to one another.

    Cancel culture, means to stop idolizing the Confederate traitors to this great country, and cancel Talk show hosts who lie to their audiences.

    The problem is, they are only wanting to cancel the side they disagree with. Heck, they are even trying to cancel Lincoln these days.

    To be fair, who would want to cancel someone with whom they agree? You'd be canceling yourself!!! [Which is the next big thing! LOL]

    There's actually a whole lot of coins that need to be canceled. We should probably melt them ALL down: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR for sure. JFK might be safe for now, although his relationships with women might make him suspect also.

    GOOD NEWS!!! We're getting brand new circulating coinage!

    Digital dollars can't get here soon enough.

    I object to the zeros, the ones are fine!

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @jwitten said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Such a stupid term. Just like PC. These terms are made up by people who want to manipulate you.

    PC to me just means being nice to one another.

    Cancel culture, means to stop idolizing the Confederate traitors to this great country, and cancel Talk show hosts who lie to their audiences.

    The problem is, they are only wanting to cancel the side they disagree with. Heck, they are even trying to cancel Lincoln these days.

    To be fair, who would want to cancel someone with whom they agree? You'd be canceling yourself!!! [Which is the next big thing! LOL]

    There's actually a whole lot of coins that need to be canceled. We should probably melt them ALL down: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR for sure. JFK might be safe for now, although his relationships with women might make him suspect also.

    GOOD NEWS!!! We're getting brand new circulating coinage!

    Digital dollars can't get here soon enough.

    I object to the zeros, the ones are fine!

    I prefer the zeroes.

    Who wants $1 when you can have $1000000?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    To not acknowledge a famous person's ownership, even a criminal, is an attempt to change and control history. I believe that the largest selection of coin books owned by collectors would be Walter Breen's books, yet what a criminal. But do we burn the books or lie about their existence and their contributiions? I would think not. We have no idea how many famous coin owners, designers or creators were criminals of some sort. We only know of those caught. Let it go and let the coins history, at least, be accurate.
    Jim

    As already mentioned, it depends on what the point of the provenance is. As a historical record, the fact that an artwork (or coin) was seized by the Nazis and then recovered post war is a fact which provides information. But if the provenance of a coin were Hitler/Breen, the marketing impact of that on the label goes beyond simple history.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    We have to be thoughtful and careful of our words here, or we might be next...

    Agree. Everyone be mindful here.

    +1

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,016 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yspsales said:
    How does the art world manage looted and predatory purchases of Nazi owned art?

    Is Goering included? How about the poor family it was stolen from?

    Never considered the issue.

    Whether as part of an important collection or mere footnote... the historian demands inclusion if legitimate purchase or exchange occurred.

    I’m going to start collecting NFT’s and make it big time 😄

    https://www.designboom.com/art/what-is-nft-why-non-fungible-art-marketplace-millions-04-06-2021/

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:
    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

    Yeah, I totally didn't understand that reference.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:
    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

    I think it was because there was a certain former member here who went by that moniker and ended up in prison for a vile act.

    It's all I can come up with

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:

    @chesterb said:
    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

    I think it was because there was a certain former member here who went by that moniker and ended up in prison for a vile act.

    It's all I can come up with

    m

    That's it.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:

    @chesterb said:
    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

    I think it was because there was a certain former member here who went by that moniker and ended up in prison for a vile act.

    It's all I can come up with

    m

    I wasn’t aware of that and it explains it. Thanks.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Justacommeman said:

    @chesterb said:
    What does all this have to do with Superman and kryptonite? I’m totally confused.

    I think it was because there was a certain former member here who went by that moniker and ended up in prison for a vile act.

    It's all I can come up with

    m

    That's it.

    I would want to cancel that chain of ownership as well

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 6:52PM

    @Justacommeman said:
    The first I can remember "cancel" culture happening was when one party canceled " French Fries" and wanted them.called " Freedom Fries" under the guise of patriotism

    m

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,079 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In before the lock......

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 8:03PM

    I wasn’t aware of Walter Breen’s issues either until I wiki’d him. He doesn’t sound like a Mensa genius to me!

  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021 5:12AM

    If the coin is the one I want—I couldn’t care less about its provenance, even those former owners deemed taboo.

    Some forumites here may very well hold ‘atrocious’ views ‘in my opinion’ outside of coins—I couldn’t care less...I still want their coin-related participation.

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who gives a ****?

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whether Breen's name, for example, might now appear in a coin provenance is not really here or there. It doesn't help the children he molested to censor his name. What would have helped them is for the justice system not to let him go free over and over again.

    Numismatically speaking, there is plenty to critique about Breen. There seem to be persistent accusations regarding his coin attributions, for example. Some of his writings within the Encyclopedia of U.S. & Colonial Coins are so far wrong that he couldn't possibly have looked at those particular coins. That is bad scholarship, at the very least.

    Unfortunately, that aspect of his legacy still lives on. There are still people writing about coins from their armchair, without looking at the coins. The greatest irony is when an author, who hasn't looked at a coin, cites easily refutable information from Breen (who also didn't look at the coin). It is worse when information is taken from Breen but not cited, as the reader is left with no indication that the information may be suspect.

  • BillyKingsleyBillyKingsley Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭

    I am of the mindset that provenance doesn't really mean much...I care about what it is, not where it was. But if I found out something I owned was once owned by a known sexual predator of children, it would be tainted in my mind, because every time I viewed it I would be reminded of the person and their crime.

    Didn't the same person brag about putting their coins in the oven to make the brightly colored toning as well?

    Multiple reasons to avoid...both are enough in and of themselves in my opinion.

    Billy Kingsley ANA R-3146356 Cardboard History // Numismatic History
  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From the article JM posted
    “cancel culture,” which is much remarked upon, but still nebulously defined. It tends to refer to behavior that mostly plays out on the internet when someone has said or done something to which others object. That person is then condemned in a flurry of social media posts. Such people are often referred to as “canceled,” a way of saying that many others (and perhaps the places at which they work) are fed up with them and will have no more to do with them.”

    As the attributes of the owner of a coin does not materially effect the coin at all unless one believes in curses, then this whole cancel culture as it relates to pedigree is an analytic throat clearing exercise

    100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mgarmy said:
    From the article JM posted
    “cancel culture,” which is much remarked upon, but still nebulously defined. It tends to refer to behavior that mostly plays out on the internet when someone has said or done something to which others object. That person is then condemned in a flurry of social media posts. Such people are often referred to as “canceled,” a way of saying that many others (and perhaps the places at which they work) are fed up with them and will have no more to do with them.”

    As the attributes of the owner of a coin does not materially effect the coin at all unless one believes in curses, then this whole cancel culture as it relates to pedigree is an analytic throat clearing exercise

    I think President Obama basically said that about the whole movement.

    I doubt, as it relates to provenance, that it would have any material impact on a coin. After all, the coin is not an artifact of the crime.

    It is, of course, more pernicious in business and entertainment. Ask Chris Harrison or Gina Carano how they feel about this fake concept, as some have described it.

    And, of course, there's this:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/san-francisco-renaming-schools/

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021 4:53AM

    When you read about this, one has to wonder what it would feel like to be the descendent of slaves and go to a school named after a slave owner, or be a parent whose child asks you why your school is named after a slave owner. It may be fine to have these people in history books to learn from, but the time of having their names in places of prominence may be ending.

    I write this as a collector of pieces that feature some of these people, and wonder what future generations will think of these pieces and collections.

    One thing I've found interesting is that there seem to be few African American coin collectors of prominence. I ran across one from Pennsylvania but I don't recall his name now.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone has their tin foil hat on this morning.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 33,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021 5:43AM
  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,024 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Should these guys be worried?

This discussion has been closed.