Provenance and Cancel Culture
Zoins
Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
When creating provenance chains, do you think it's good form to include some people with questionable credentials or should they be cancelled?
As an example, I looked up a coin that had a provenance to Superman's home planet element. I'm not sure whether to include that person in the provenance chain or not. Do you think such a provenance should be listed or forgotten?
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Don’t give them any ideas.
Keep it all. It's part of its history.
I have a coin that had a connection to an infamous criminal and I would not show it here to avoid controversy, but I will maintain the history for posterity.
What’s your purpose in creating a provenance chain? Thorough and accurate information. or window dressing?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Keep the history! Many people who's credentials are questionable in 2021 were considered to be standup citizens in the era they lived....but perhaps not all.
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If someone buys a coin from you but thinks you have questionable credentials, how would you feel about being left off the provenance chain?
Superman owned your coin?
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
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Many people have already indicated they will remove many names from slab inserts
That's why I intend to sell on Heritage or Stack's where slab photos live forever
I would maintain it for historical tracking purposes as note in my collection, but personally believe too much often gets placed on the holder label.
There can be multiple purposes. I tend to like posting a provenance chain any time I post a coin, but sometimes the purpose of the post is the coin and provenance while other times the purpose of the post is someone else.
For example, in the case of a thread celebrating a collector, I'm wondering if adding such a provenance my affect the primary purpose of the thread, which is celebration of that collector.
If you're talking about slab inserts, they're too small to include provenance chains unless there aren't hardly any links already.
I'm mostly talking about publications like forum posts and articles. Slab inserts were mentioned but was not my primary concern as a lot of provenance is lost on those already, like on the Eliasberg 1913 nickel which only lists the previous owner now.
I don’t understand what the above actually has to do with excluding some people with questionable credentials.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Then it doesn't matter you. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks
Fair enough. Regarding provenance chains, what is the benefit of pretending that some people who actually owned the coin didn't?
Generally, people are dropped from provenance chains all the time. It's a common practice in the hobby.
So a provenance chain is not actually a chain? Ok. So- what's the point of the exercise, if you're going to pick and choose?
It's not me, which is why I'm asking. It's typically others, which is why I said "in the hobby". As for why they are dropped, you'd have to ask those others.
??? Color me confused.
I haven't posted any chain for the coin in question yet
But in your opening post, you wrote:
“...As an example, I looked up a coin that had a provenance to Superman's home planet element. I'm not sure whether to include that person in the provenance chain or not. Do you think such a provenance should be listed or forgotten?”
That sounded like you were deciding whether to pick and choose.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This world I tell you. People have nothing to do they find anything and I mean anything to complain about. Why don't just cancel it all....names of countries, planets, sports, the sun, the moon and I mean all of it. Rip off the bandage so they can see they are nothing special.
Actually, I was asking forum members for their thoughts
I had made no decision for myself. If that's what you're getting at, then yes, I made no decision.
And I am tired of 1 + 1 = 2 to me it FEELS like it should be 3.
Myself, I would keep the full ownership change regardless of my assessment of their life. But one thing I’ve learned from history is every generation picks apart their elders according to whatever standard is in vogue at the time. The heroes of today will be the villains of tomorrow. It’s just human nature.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Social sciences trying to make real science subjective because they don't understand it. And I majored in social sciences I know their BS.
Not sure what roundabout reference the Superman thing is, but "questionable credentials" is usually not grounds for being cancelled. "Attribute or history that someone finds objectionable" is.
Regarding "questionable credentials," I imagine that if I bought a coin from an Important Collection™, later sold it, and it eventually ended up in another Important Collection™, I would be referred to as "other collector" or grouped into "other collectors" in the listed provenance when sold from the second Important Collection™. The actual, rigorously documented provenance would include me and other interceding collectors. A further abbreviated one would simply state Ex: Important Collection™ A and Important Collection™ B, but not represent the provenance.
Whether one should be removed from a provenance chain due to a personal attribute or history that someone finds objectionable, I unhesitatingly declare that this cannot be the case, as the actual provenance chain is agnostic to peccadillos of previous owners.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Why are people just sitting back and letting these lunatics do what they do? Oh pardon me for hurting your feelings!!!
All coins of note were owned by a bunch of patriarchal children of privilege. Cancel them all.
If you want a serious answer, until Breen is canceled, why are we canceling anyone else?
My feelings won't be hurt either way. I'm wondering about forum members, and it seems no forum member feelings will be hurt!
Actually, in this case, it would be 1+ 1 = 1
Like I said let's just cancel everything and be done with it.
Ok. If the purpose of a provenance chain is to be a historical record, include everybody. If its purpose is to be used to market the coin, leave out whoever you want to. But be sure to include L@@K! in the title.
hahaha
I say we stop using our brains (I mean why should we) and just cancel, cancel and do some more cancelling then we can cancel the cancelling.
You are correct, of course. But those peccadillos drive the cancel culture car.
Yeah right off the bridge!!!
I was waiting for that name to pop up!
I would not! Not here! Not there! Nor anywhere.
If the credentials were not questionable during the time they were earned then they remain unquestionable. Those who wish to travel back in time to apply today's standards of what is acceptable should be prevented from returning to the present.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Some provenances give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Others I can't wait to reholder.
It's a personal choice, that's all.
I can think of scientists whose misdeeds lead to their downfall after their celebrated work was found to be BS material.
Like Uranus?
No that one is to special.
If the question is as I understand it, are you obligated to include the whole provenance?...then of course the answer is no. As has been mentioned it happens...maybe frequently.
Men are flawed, its a question of degree, right? And often there is no consensus on who is unacceptably flawed.
I'm getting in late on this and I only read the first post. My take; Zoins, YOU ARE THE BEST!......YOU ROCK!
Sigh...
Why is there infinitely[1] more complaining about so-called "cancel culture" than there is anything which can reasonably called "cancelling"?
[1] intended to be accurate, no an exaggeration.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
My ANA blog entry 4 years ago...
https://money.org/collector/drdarryl/blog/provenance-to-pedigree
Provenance example with documented full chain of ownership for a first day of issue of a presidential numismatic artifact (1971-S uncirculated Eisenhower silver dollar).
The original gifting letter and follow-on provenance letter can never be substituted with a TPG label.
I will create another a follow-on provenance letter to the future buyer (when I wish to sell this presidential numismatic artifact) to keep the full chain of ownership intact.
How does the art world manage looted and predatory purchases of Nazi owned art?
Is Goering included? How about the poor family it was stolen from?
Never considered the issue.
Whether as part of an important collection or mere footnote... the historian demands inclusion if legitimate purchase or exchange occurred.
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