You can not have a thread about some of the most overrated baseball players of all time, and not mention THE MOST OVERRATED baseball player of all time. I've been banging the drum on this player for years, and slowly, but surely, more and more people seem to be coming around.
I'm convinced that most people don't actually watch the games anymore. Instead, they watch a few ESPN highlights and log into their computer to see what the newfangled stats say about W.A.R. or win shares or W.P.A. and make their determinations based on that.
It's been stated in this thread that you can be both great and overrated. I would agree with that. This player will absolutely make the Hall of Fame based on his accumulated stats. His plaque will encompass his greatness with the following:
"With 13-21 Seattle visiting the 11-22 Angels, he went 3-4 with a single, double, homerun, and a walk, scoring 4 times and driving in 6. He was greatest when it mattered least."
He can't do anything when it matters.
He has tremendous difficulty with the high fastball.
He's the king of called third strikes. In fact, in another thread last summer, I made the greatest called shot in baseball history, even better than the Babe's, when I noted that if you could make the Hall of Fame by being the best at watching called third strikes go by, then this guy is already an inner circle Hall of Famer. After that comment, he then proceeded to take 11 called third strikes in the next 13 games. Not just strike out 11 times in 13 games, but every strikeout he went down looking. The worst hitting pitchers don't get rung up that much. I'm sure the fancy schmancy stat guys will point out, it's not only the outs you make, but the outs you don't make. I'm sure by watching the strikes go by he was avoiding ripping a laser to the second baseman for some unassisted double and triple plays, thereby somehow increasing his value to the team and adding to his W.A.R.
He plays too deep in centerfield and let's too many balls fall in front of him. Runners routinely read that he got a poor jump and can tell it's going to fall in so are already headed to the next base. They don't fear to challenge his both weak and inaccurate arm, and take the extra base that way, too. Statcast rated him in the 1st percentile for outfielders on his jumps. In case you didn't know, that's bad! Every single slug that calls himself a MLB outfielder is ahead of him in the rankings. Statcast ranked him in the 9th percentile for outs above average. A teeny bit better than his jumps, but still putrid.
He has no heart, and is a fake on the level of A-Rod.
He wakes up every night in a cold sweat, and faintly in the wind, he hears the ghost of Ventura wailing, "Look at the scoreboard, kiiiiid!!!"
I'm talking about this guy...
.
Yes, Michael Nelson Trout, The Most Overrated Baseball Player in History!
No, the truth is you conveniently neglected to mention Koufax's many remarkable achievements which most other Hall of Fame pitchers can only dream about.
I did mention his achievements - specifically said he had four great years (to be fair, one of those four wasn't a full season).
C'mon, make your case that he's NOT overrated. Prove he's the greatest of all-time, or top 3 at least.
Leo Durocher asked Topps to honor Ron with a card of what he was most likely to do in big moments, in key ball games when the Cubs needed him the most. Here’s what the experts at Topps came up with.
Not direct proof that Koufax was the greatest (this is highly subjective to me) but this a good three minute discussion Pete Rose had with Cowherd. I found it entertaining anyway. It's worth taking a gander. For the record, I don't like Cowherd but this was pretty good. Like Yogi Berra, 1B coach for the Yankees during the '63 WS. said, "I can see how he (Sandy Koufax) won twenty-five games. What I don't understand is how he lost five." I think his dominance in the postseason adds to his fame and allure.
No, the truth is you conveniently neglected to mention Koufax's many remarkable achievements which most other Hall of Fame pitchers can only dream about.
I did mention his achievements - specifically said he had four great years (to be fair, one of those four wasn't a full season).
C'mon, make your case that he's NOT overrated. Prove he's the greatest of all-time, or top 3 at least.
@Goldenage said:
Leo Durocher asked Topps to honor Ron with a card of what he was most likely to do in big moments, in key ball games when the Cubs needed him the most. Here’s what the experts at Topps came up with.
I am likely to get flamed for this, but personally, I think Mickey Mantle is underrated in several ways. First of all, he was the fastest player in the league when he entered and still holds the record (tied with the great Willie Wilson) for the fastest time ever from home to first. He holds the “official” record for the longest homerun ever hit (not tied with Willie Wilson) although I believe the best player ever (Babe Ruth) likely truly holds that one. Finally, he was the most powerful switch hitter that ever played (vouched for by Teddy Ballgame). He is unquestionably one of the top 5 players ever and is often noted as a “what if” guy, which is fair. If only he had the dedication of a Gehrig, Ripken, or Aaron, what numbers could he have put up? He also was GREAT in the clutch which counts for a lot in my opinion. Finally, he is from Oklahoma and so am I. LOL BTW - Mantle said Koufax was nearly unhittable and that DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player he ever saw and played alongside.
@coinkat said:
Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.
C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.
No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.
Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.
Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.
5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.
Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904
Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.
Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.
Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.
I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.
Yaz was a terrific player who had a few tremendous offensive years and a LOT of above average, but not HOF, years. He was the best player in the AL for 5-6 years, but not even in the top 10 as a hitter, when he wasn't the #1 guy. Huge difference.
He certainly got screwed in 1968 and 1970 in the MVP voting.
He gets remembered for the incredible years, but not mentioned for the other years. Seems like it's not pointed out that he was very good, not great, for 75% of his career.
JAWS has a few problems here if you just focus on WAR. Longevity here seems to really help Yaz, and that's fine. He should get credit for most of those years.
Williams is head and shoulders above everyone, I ignore Bonds, he was great but I have no idea how to rank him, he certainly doesn't belong above Williams.
Rose was an infielder, he doesn't belong on the list.
I would rank Billy Williams above Yaz, Ralph Kiner would be #2 if he had played longer, Tim Raines should be ranked higher than he is imo. Then you get to the "old timers"; Al Simmons was better than Yaz, and certainly Goose Goslin, Ed Delahanty was a better hitter, but Yaz played so much longer, he gets rewarded.
Being #3 all time in at bats really makes it a tough comparison, when guys who were "better" had much shorter careers.
8 out of Carl's last 9 years were not great, 3 of his last 4 were part time years that get rewarded (IMO) with an inflated OPS+.
To look a little more positively at Yaz, he was a GREAT defender who had about 10 years as the best in that category.
However, the problem to me is LF is generally where you put your worst outfielder. The Green Monster certainly helped him in the assists area I would say.
Top 10 Left Fielder, he disappears if you bring in the entire outfield.
He's 213th (all positions) all time in OPS.
OK. I hear and acknowledge what you've said. Now, please answer my question: How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? For that matter, how many players were the best in their respective leagues for 5-6 years? I'm just using your words here and trying to understand why you rate him so poorly. Again, I claim that makes him underrated.
Lots and lots of players had 5 superb years.
My favorite player, Harmon Killebrew had about 8. I think Carl and Harmon were the best two players in the AL during the 1960's. Killebrew is 87th All-Time in OPS, so even though he never (quite) had a year like Yaz in 1967, he had more great years and ended up with a much higher spot on the all time OPS list.
Another guy that was better than either Carl or Harmon was Frank Robinson who had thirteen seasons with over a 150 OPS+. Even Al Kaline who never had a "monster" year ended up with a higher OPS and SLG than Yaz because he had a MUCH more consistent career.
If you need more great outfielders who were better; Mays, Mantle, Aaron. Those are just guys who had at least "10 superb years". I could name a lot more if we go into different eras and include the infield. Five superb years is pretty common for a HOFer.
I wouldn't say I rate Yaz "poorly" at all, and don't understand why you would say that. All I have done is look at his numbers. Have I made a mistake somewhere?
I did point out that I felt he deserved a couple more MVP awards.
I rated him a superior defensive player. But he didn't play a high value position. He also didn't strike out too much, and walked a lot. A great "all around player", but not a great hitter, outside of those 5 years.
Eleven years Yaz had an OPS of under .800, that's about half his career. He had two great and one very good seasons in his last 13 years, that's an awful lot of solid, but not HOF type seasons.
I never said Carl wasn't worthy of the HOF, but for a HOFer he had a LOT of not so great years.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@coinkat said:
Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.
C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.
No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.
Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.
Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.
5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.
Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904
Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.
Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.
Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.
I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.
Yaz was a terrific player who had a few tremendous offensive years and a LOT of above average, but not HOF, years. He was the best player in the AL for 5-6 years, but not even in the top 10 as a hitter, when he wasn't the #1 guy. Huge difference.
He certainly got screwed in 1968 and 1970 in the MVP voting.
He gets remembered for the incredible years, but not mentioned for the other years. Seems like it's not pointed out that he was very good, not great, for 75% of his career.
JAWS has a few problems here if you just focus on WAR. Longevity here seems to really help Yaz, and that's fine. He should get credit for most of those years.
Williams is head and shoulders above everyone, I ignore Bonds, he was great but I have no idea how to rank him, he certainly doesn't belong above Williams.
Rose was an infielder, he doesn't belong on the list.
I would rank Billy Williams above Yaz, Ralph Kiner would be #2 if he had played longer, Tim Raines should be ranked higher than he is imo. Then you get to the "old timers"; Al Simmons was better than Yaz, and certainly Goose Goslin, Ed Delahanty was a better hitter, but Yaz played so much longer, he gets rewarded.
Being #3 all time in at bats really makes it a tough comparison, when guys who were "better" had much shorter careers.
8 out of Carl's last 9 years were not great, 3 of his last 4 were part time years that get rewarded (IMO) with an inflated OPS+.
To look a little more positively at Yaz, he was a GREAT defender who had about 10 years as the best in that category.
However, the problem to me is LF is generally where you put your worst outfielder. The Green Monster certainly helped him in the assists area I would say.
Top 10 Left Fielder, he disappears if you bring in the entire outfield.
He's 213th (all positions) all time in OPS.
OK. I hear and acknowledge what you've said. Now, please answer my question: How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? For that matter, how many players were the best in their respective leagues for 5-6 years? I'm just using your words here and trying to understand why you rate him so poorly. Again, I claim that makes him underrated.
Lots and lots of players had 5 superb years.
My favorite player, Harmon Killebrew had about 8. I think Carl and Harmon were the best two players in the AL during the 1960's. Killebrew is 87th All-Time in OPS, so even though he never (quite) had a year like Yaz in 1967, he had more great years and ended up with a much higher spot on the all time OPS list.
Another guy that was better than either Carl or Harmon was Frank Robinson who had thirteen seasons with over a 150 OPS+. Even Al Kaline who never had a "monster" year ended up with a higher OPS and SLG than Yaz because he had a MUCH more consistent career.
If you need more great outfielders who were better; Mays, Mantle, Aaron. Those are just guys who had at least "10 superb years". I could name a lot more if we go into different eras and include the infield. Five superb years is pretty common for a HOFer.
I wouldn't say I rate Yaz "poorly" at all, and don't understand why you would say that. All I have done is look at his numbers. Have I made a mistake somewhere?
I did point out that I felt he deserved a couple more MVP awards.
I rated him a superior defensive player. But he didn't play a high value position. He also didn't strike out too much, and walked a lot. A great "all around player", but not a great hitter, outside of those 5 years.
Eleven years Yaz had an OPS of under .800, that's about half his career. He had two great and one very good seasons in his last 13 years, that's an awful lot of solid, but not HOF type seasons.
I never said Carl wasn't worthy of the HOF, but for a HOFer he had a LOT of not so great years.
i think this is a very accurate overview of Carls career
@bobbybakeriv said:
I am likely to get flamed for this, but personally, I think Mickey Mantle is underrated in several ways. First of all, he was the fastest player in the league when he entered and still holds the record (tied with the great Willie Wilson) for the fastest time ever from home to first. He holds the “official” record for the longest homerun ever hit (not tied with Willie Wilson) although I believe the best player ever (Babe Ruth) likely truly holds that one. Finally, he was the most powerful switch hitter that ever played (vouched for by Teddy Ballgame). He is unquestionably one of the top 5 players ever and is often noted as a “what if” guy, which is fair. If only he had the dedication of a Gehrig, Ripken, or Aaron, what numbers could he have put up? He also was GREAT in the clutch which counts for a lot in my opinion. Finally, he is from Oklahoma and so am I. LOL BTW - Mantle said Koufax was nearly unhittable and that DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player he ever saw and played alongside.
Good points.
I think Mantle overall, probably had the most perfect body of all time, made to play the game of baseball as a hitter and fielder.
@perkdog said:
I want someone to comment on Mike Trout being accused of being overrated, yes? No?
This is one of the obvious ways you can tell that this entire thread is just a joke. We're three pages into it and not a single poster has even defined what "overrated" means, or how any of the players mentioned in it are supposedly "rated". Read through it and substitute the word "volugluted" for "overrated" and it changes nothing. (Yes, I just made up the word "volugluted").
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Thank you to Goldenage for creating this thread to entertain me, and thanks to all of you who agreed to participate. It's like Christmas and my birthday all rolled into one!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Never thought that I would ever see a thread where Rickey Henderson, Mike Trout and Sandy Koufax were all called overrated. This thread is in consideration for the hall of let's just make outlandish remarks to get reactions.
@perkdog said:
I want someone to comment on Mike Trout being accused of being overrated, yes? No?
This is one of the obvious ways you can tell that this entire thread is just a joke. We're three pages into it and not a single poster has even defined what "overrated" means, or how any of the players mentioned in it are supposedly "rated". Read through it and substitute the word "volugluted" for "overrated" and it changes nothing. (Yes, I just made up the word "volugluted").
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Thank you to Goldenage for creating this thread to entertain me, and thanks to all of you who agreed to participate. It's like Christmas and my birthday all rolled into one!
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Williams OPS against RH=1.151
Yaz OPS against RH=.891
Williams OPS against LH=.930
Yaz OPS against LH=.692
Ted Williams OPS against LH was higher than Yaz's against RH, so I would say he was about a million times better hitter. Maybe a trillion, probably a septillion.
Neither could hold a candle to Gene Tenace.
Interesting word "volugluted" a new one for me. I couldn't find it's meaning, but I'll infer it's meaning.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Overrated by definition means you get more credit than you deserve.
If you made the baseball hall of fame when you got only 4% of the vote on the first try when another 3rd baseman got 92% of the vote, then we see that you really don’t belong. And you actually never got enough votes.
When you sucked away from the Wrigley launching pad, and sucked in key games (1969), and your manager even said it, and you’re in the hall, then not only are you over rated, but you are highly over rated.
So thanks to goldenage, we all know the truth about the most over rated 3rd baseman of all time.
Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! !
Oh Mr. Dallas.
Do we not practice what we preach ?
Do we say out of one side of our mouth that we will never be "goaded".
Then only later do we find ourselves "goading" with everyone ?
Why can't we be consistent with what comes out of our mouths ?
Why must we always be conflicted in our own mind ?
If we really are a man of principle (or woman LOL), we'd stick to our principles and never be "goaded".
Please never post in this very enlightening thread again. Or you only show people what you truly are.
A person who either can never make up his mind, or a person who says one thing, but does the other.
@perkdog said:
I want someone to comment on Mike Trout being accused of being overrated, yes? No?
This is one of the obvious ways you can tell that this entire thread is just a joke. We're three pages into it and not a single poster has even defined what "overrated" means, or how any of the players mentioned in it are supposedly "rated". Read through it and substitute the word "volugluted" for "overrated" and it changes nothing. (Yes, I just made up the word "volugluted").
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Thank you to Goldenage for creating this thread to entertain me, and thanks to all of you who agreed to participate. It's like Christmas and my birthday all rolled into one!
@Goldenage said:
Overrated by definition means you get more credit than you deserve.
Stop it, man, you're killing me!
How do you know I'm a man ?
Perhaps you are afraid of getting schooled by a female !!!
Put that in your monk soup and stir it !
First rule of posting. Never assume.
You know what happens when you do that ?
You posted a picture of yourself from the 1980's and you had a beard.
So there's three options.
1. You're a male
2. You're the bearded lady at county carnivals
3. You took the Bruce Jenner route.
@Goldenage said:
Overrated by definition means you get more credit than you deserve.
Stop it, man, you're killing me!
How do you know I'm a man ?
Perhaps you are afraid of getting schooled by a female !!!
Put that in your monk soup and stir it !
First rule of posting. Never assume.
You know what happens when you do that ?
You posted a picture of yourself from the 1980's and you had a beard.
So there's three options.
1. You're a male
2. You're the bearded lady at county carnivals
3. You took the Bruce Jenner route.
Do we say out of one side of our mouth that we will never be "goaded".
Then only later do we find ourselves "goading" with everyone ?
Why can't we be consistent with what comes out of our mouths ?
Why must we always be conflicted in our own mind ?
If we really are a man of principle (or woman LOL), we'd stick to our principles and never be "goaded".
Please never post in this very enlightening thread again. Or you only show people what you truly are.
A person who either can never make up his mind, or a person who says one thing, but does the other.
Sincerely,
4%
This is a masterpiece. Are you angry? Are you frustrated? Are you choking back tears? You somehow managed to leave the impression that you are all three, in equal measure. And to do all that in a thread that you started for the sole purpose of amusing me.... I am truly touched that you went, and continue to go, to this much effort all on my behalf. If I did hurt your feelings by singling out the Yaz/Williams post as the best joke in the thread, then I apologize; some of yours really were just as funny.
Bring it in, big fella!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@Goldenage said:
and sucked in key games (1969), and your manager even said it, and you’re in the hall, then not only are you over rated, but you are highly over rated.
I've heard those sentiments forever, but it doesn't really make them true. There has to be more evidence than that, and his manager may just be directing the blame elsewhere for their collapse that year.
I don't think it is fair to slap that label onto someone with such little evidence, and it was only one year too.
For the ballpark, the OPS+ has it baked in there already, and in cases like Dimaggio and left field at Yankee Stadium where there is clear logic to him being hurt more than the OPS+ shows....with Santo and Wrigley, it isn't quite as clear. There is as good a chance that it was just random luck for his big splits(outside of the already baked in park factor). There is a chance he was helped more so...but I'm not sure that will ever be truly solved.
@bobbybakeriv said:
I am likely to get flamed for this, but personally, I think Mickey Mantle is underrated in several ways. First of all, he was the fastest player in the league when he entered and still holds the record (tied with the great Willie Wilson) for the fastest time ever from home to first. He holds the “official” record for the longest homerun ever hit (not tied with Willie Wilson) although I believe the best player ever (Babe Ruth) likely truly holds that one. Finally, he was the most powerful switch hitter that ever played (vouched for by Teddy Ballgame). He is unquestionably one of the top 5 players ever and is often noted as a “what if” guy, which is fair. If only he had the dedication of a Gehrig, Ripken, or Aaron, what numbers could he have put up? He also was GREAT in the clutch which counts for a lot in my opinion. Finally, he is from Oklahoma and so am I. LOL BTW - Mantle said Koufax was nearly unhittable and that DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player he ever saw and played alongside.
Good points.
I think Mantle overall, probably had the most perfect body of all time, made to play the game of baseball as a hitter and fielder.
If only he had taken better care of it.
Including his legs, which were a mess? He had to tape them up before every game. His legs were bad news from the time he tripped of the sprinkler in his rookie season.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I've heard those sentiments forever, but it doesn't really make them true. There has to be more evidence than that, and his manager may just be directing the blame elsewhere for their collapse that year.
I don't think it is fair to slap that label onto someone with such little evidence, and it was only one year too.
Santo had hits in 10 of the last 14 games of the year, 1 of which he didn't start, and reached based on 2 of the 4 he didn't get a hit. So he reached base in 12 of the 14 games. He homered twice in that stretch, exactly what you'd expect from a guy who averages about 25 homers a year.
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Williams OPS against RH=1.151
Yaz OPS against RH=.891
Williams OPS against LH=.930
Yaz OPS against LH=.692
Ted Williams OPS against LH was higher than Yaz's against RH, so I would say he was about a million times better hitter. Maybe a trillion, probably a septillion.
Neither could hold a candle to Gene Tenace.
Interesting word "volugluted" a new one for me. I couldn't find it's meaning, but I'll infer it's meaning.
so you are saying ted is worth about 5 percent more than Yaz
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Williams OPS against RH=1.151
Yaz OPS against RH=.891
Williams OPS against LH=.930
Yaz OPS against LH=.692
Ted Williams OPS against LH was higher than Yaz's against RH, so I would say he was about a million times better hitter. Maybe a trillion, probably a septillion.
Neither could hold a candle to Gene Tenace.
Interesting word "volugluted" a new one for me. I couldn't find it's meaning, but I'll infer it's meaning.
so you are saying ted is worth about 5 percent more than Yaz
7.82%
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
The HOF'er I always name in these threads was about as good as Mario Mendoza.
Rabbit Maranville......... in the golden age of the .400 hitter managed a lifetime BA of .258
which would mean in todays' game he would hit maybe .220
But he was fast wasn't he? Well he was 1920's white guy fast. Which translates today of
having about the same speed as a 42-53 year old Albert Pujols or however old he is.
Great on defense correct? Well if he kept the errors under 50 per year it seems that was a pretty
good defensive year for him.
I'm actually convinced this guy got in the HOF just on a nickname alone. Rabbit.
He should be kicked out just on this simple statistic alone.
As I mentioned he played in the golden age of the .400 hitter. Not uncommon at all for
players to hit over .400 and many players would hit .350-.370 and nobody would blink
an eye because that was common.
But our hero? Well in a long 20+ year career he never hit over .300 !!!!!!!!!!!
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
As good as the Yaz/Williams joke was, you took the crown with this one! And bonus points for originality; even though I still have no idea what "overrated" means in this thread, I surely would never have thought that Maranville or Mendoza would make an appearance in it. And the irony of declaring possibly the worst baseball player in history as better than a bona fide HOFer, and thereby making Mario Mendoza himself the most overrated player ever - that was a masterstroke. Seriously, very well done.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@coinkat said:
Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.
C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.
No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.
Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.
Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.
5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.
Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904
Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.
Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.
Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.
I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.
Yaz was a terrific player who had a few tremendous offensive years and a LOT of above average, but not HOF, years. He was the best player in the AL for 5-6 years, but not even in the top 10 as a hitter, when he wasn't the #1 guy. Huge difference.
He certainly got screwed in 1968 and 1970 in the MVP voting.
He gets remembered for the incredible years, but not mentioned for the other years. Seems like it's not pointed out that he was very good, not great, for 75% of his career.
JAWS has a few problems here if you just focus on WAR. Longevity here seems to really help Yaz, and that's fine. He should get credit for most of those years.
Williams is head and shoulders above everyone, I ignore Bonds, he was great but I have no idea how to rank him, he certainly doesn't belong above Williams.
Rose was an infielder, he doesn't belong on the list.
I would rank Billy Williams above Yaz, Ralph Kiner would be #2 if he had played longer, Tim Raines should be ranked higher than he is imo. Then you get to the "old timers"; Al Simmons was better than Yaz, and certainly Goose Goslin, Ed Delahanty was a better hitter, but Yaz played so much longer, he gets rewarded.
Being #3 all time in at bats really makes it a tough comparison, when guys who were "better" had much shorter careers.
8 out of Carl's last 9 years were not great, 3 of his last 4 were part time years that get rewarded (IMO) with an inflated OPS+.
To look a little more positively at Yaz, he was a GREAT defender who had about 10 years as the best in that category.
However, the problem to me is LF is generally where you put your worst outfielder. The Green Monster certainly helped him in the assists area I would say.
Top 10 Left Fielder, he disappears if you bring in the entire outfield.
He's 213th (all positions) all time in OPS.
OK. I hear and acknowledge what you've said. Now, please answer my question: How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? For that matter, how many players were the best in their respective leagues for 5-6 years? I'm just using your words here and trying to understand why you rate him so poorly. Again, I claim that makes him underrated.
Lots and lots of players had 5 superb years.
My favorite player, Harmon Killebrew had about 8. I think Carl and Harmon were the best two players in the AL during the 1960's. Killebrew is 87th All-Time in OPS, so even though he never (quite) had a year like Yaz in 1967, he had more great years and ended up with a much higher spot on the all time OPS list.
Another guy that was better than either Carl or Harmon was Frank Robinson who had thirteen seasons with over a 150 OPS+. Even Al Kaline who never had a "monster" year ended up with a higher OPS and SLG than Yaz because he had a MUCH more consistent career.
If you need more great outfielders who were better; Mays, Mantle, Aaron. Those are just guys who had at least "10 superb years". I could name a lot more if we go into different eras and include the infield. Five superb years is pretty common for a HOFer.
I wouldn't say I rate Yaz "poorly" at all, and don't understand why you would say that. All I have done is look at his numbers. Have I made a mistake somewhere?
I did point out that I felt he deserved a couple more MVP awards.
I rated him a superior defensive player. But he didn't play a high value position. He also didn't strike out too much, and walked a lot. A great "all around player", but not a great hitter, outside of those 5 years.
Eleven years Yaz had an OPS of under .800, that's about half his career. He had two great and one very good seasons in his last 13 years, that's an awful lot of solid, but not HOF type seasons.
I never said Carl wasn't worthy of the HOF, but for a HOFer he had a LOT of not so great years.
Fair enough. If you're going to claim Killebrew had eight superb seasons, then we obviously have different definitions of what a superb season is.
If you say that the fourth-best left fielder by JAWS doesn't make your top ten left fielders, and disappears if you bring in the entire outfield, then yes, I'll say you rate him poorly.
Even though you didn't ask, I see a player with three superb years, six more that were very good, and a solid contributor every year from when he was 20 to when he was 40. That's inner circle.
@Darin said:
The HOF'er I always name in these threads was about as good as Mario Mendoza.
Rabbit Maranville......... in the golden age of the .400 hitter managed a lifetime BA of .258
which would mean in todays' game he would hit maybe .220
But he was fast wasn't he? Well he was 1920's white guy fast. Which translates today of
having about the same speed as a 42-53 year old Albert Pujols or however old he is.
Great on defense correct? Well if he kept the errors under 50 per year it seems that was a pretty
good defensive year for him.
I'm actually convinced this guy got in the HOF just on a nickname alone. Rabbit.
He should be kicked out just on this simple statistic alone.
As I mentioned he played in the golden age of the .400 hitter. Not uncommon at all for
players to hit over .400 and many players would hit .350-.370 and nobody would blink
an eye because that was common.
But our hero? Well in a long 20+ year career he never hit over .300 !!!!!!!!!!!
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
You're right.
In discussions such as this, Rabbit Maranville used to be my main whipping boy until Bill Mazeroski came along.
Up to August 15 Santo hit .302/.398/.522. He was a big reason they were 9 games up in first place on Aug 15. Do those not count as big games?
What counts as a big regular season game? Is it only the last few games of the season? None of the season long battle for first place games count as big games?
From Aug 15 to the end of the year he slumped. No doubt with a .723 OPS.> @Tabe said:
I've heard those sentiments forever, but it doesn't really make them true. There has to be more evidence than that, and his manager may just be directing the blame elsewhere for their collapse that year.
I don't think it is fair to slap that label onto someone with such little evidence, and it was only one year too.
Santo had hits in 10 of the last 14 games of the year, 1 of which he didn't start, and reached based on 2 of the 4 he didn't get a hit. So he reached base in 12 of the 14 games. He homered twice in that stretch, exactly what you'd expect from a guy who averages about 25 homers a year.
Yes, I agree. If that is the definition of failure, and that standard is applied to everyone, then a whole lot of players are going to be considered failures.
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
As good as the Yaz/Williams joke was, you took the crown with this one! And bonus points for originality; even though I still have no idea what "overrated" means in this thread, I surely would never have thought that Maranville or Mendoza would make an appearance in it. And the irony of declaring possibly the worst baseball player in history as better than a bona fide HOFer, and thereby making Mario Mendoza himself the most overrated player ever - that was a masterstroke. Seriously, very well done.
Up to August 15 Santo hit .302/.398/.522. He was a big reason they were 9 games up in first place on Aug 15. Do those not count as big games?
What counts as a big regular season game? Is it only the last few games of the season? None of the season long battle for first place games count as big games?
From Aug 15 to the end of the year he slumped. No doubt with a .723 OPS.> @Tabe said:
I've heard those sentiments forever, but it doesn't really make them true. There has to be more evidence than that, and his manager may just be directing the blame elsewhere for their collapse that year.
I don't think it is fair to slap that label onto someone with such little evidence, and it was only one year too.
Santo had hits in 10 of the last 14 games of the year, 1 of which he didn't start, and reached based on 2 of the 4 he didn't get a hit. So he reached base in 12 of the 14 games. He homered twice in that stretch, exactly what you'd expect from a guy who averages about 25 homers a year.
Yes, I agree. If that is the definition of failure, and that standard is applied to everyone, then a whole lot of players are going to be considered failures.
George Brett got 98% on his first ballot. The writers knew what Brett did during the regular season and during the postseason. Ron Santo got 4% on his first ballot. The writers never did vote Santo in btw.
Seems to me like Goldenage and the writers are on the same page.
Seems to me like the snowflakes are falling from the sky trying to stand up for Mr. Pop Up.
His former team mates would be on my side too.
Santo angered some of his teammates. Santo’s intense personality resulted in conflicts with some of his Cubs teammates. He simply hated to lose, a quality that led to a few postgame pop-offs with the press. After Don Young, an inexperienced center fielder, made two errors in a July 1969 loss to the Mets, Santo criticized his teammate through the media. According to some, Santo’s biting comments destroyed Young’s confidence, thereby stunting his development.
Santo also had two severe personality clashes with teammates, one that was famous and the other more obscure. The lesser-known squabble involved Rico Carty, who played for the Cubs briefly in 1973. Terming Santo a selfish player who had little interest in team goals, Carty predicted the Cubs would never win a division title or league pennant until they rid themselves of their longtime third baseman. And then, after being traded to the cross-town White Sox, Santo locked horns with Dick Allen. Santo criticized Allen for being lazy; Allen responded by calling Santo egotistical and presumptuous. Safe to say, it was a stormy season on the south side of Chicago in 1974.
@Darin said:
The HOF'er I always name in these threads was about as good as Mario Mendoza.
Rabbit Maranville......... in the golden age of the .400 hitter managed a lifetime BA of .258
which would mean in todays' game he would hit maybe .220
But he was fast wasn't he? Well he was 1920's white guy fast. Which translates today of
having about the same speed as a 42-53 year old Albert Pujols or however old he is.
Great on defense correct? Well if he kept the errors under 50 per year it seems that was a pretty
good defensive year for him.
I'm actually convinced this guy got in the HOF just on a nickname alone. Rabbit.
He should be kicked out just on this simple statistic alone.
As I mentioned he played in the golden age of the .400 hitter. Not uncommon at all for
players to hit over .400 and many players would hit .350-.370 and nobody would blink
an eye because that was common.
But our hero? Well in a long 20+ year career he never hit over .300 !!!!!!!!!!!
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
You're right.
In discussions such as this, Rabbit Maranville used to be my main whipping boy until Bill Mazeroski came along.
Mazeroski is a good choice also. Like you said he's only a HOF'er because of a famous
post season HR. Maranville is only in because of his nickname.
Santo was a hot dog and a showboat. During the 1969 season, Santo jumped into the air and clicked his heels after a number of Cubs victories. He started the ritual on June 22, after Jim Hickman hit a walkoff home run to beat the expansion Montreal Expos. Santo jumped into the air three times, clicking his heels on each occasion. The next day, Leo Durocher asked Santo to click his heels after every home victory at Wrigley Field. Santo did so through early September, when the Cubs fell from first place.
This habit became a point of contention with some members of the media and Cubs opponents, particularly the rival Mets. During the 1960s and early ’70s, players were expected to conduct themselves in businesslike fashion, even after wins. There were no bunny hops after walkoff home runs, no shaving cream pies thrown into the face of that day’s hero. Santo’s “heel clicks” might have been considered acceptable in today’s flashier game, but not in 1969. In some ways, Santo never really lived down those heel clicks, especially after the Cubs collapsed in August and September and eventually lost the pennant to the Mets.
Goldenage- Dwight Evans should be in the Hof In my opinion.
As an everyday player he was above average in every phase.
Hitting, fielding, baserunning, arm strength. He was so valuable just to
plug into the lineup every day and get the consistency that he brought.
Unlike Maz and Maranville who were so one dimensional or in Rabbits' case
zero dimensional that in the course of a career they just hurt their team so much
with their complete incompetence at the plate.
Another player that should be in the HOF is Will Clark. He's being punished too much
for retiring early. His last season was a great year and he could have continued at
a high level but he simply didn't want to.
Non Hof'er Will Clarks career OPS+ - 137. Maranville- 82. Maz- 84. LOL.
Comments
A picture of Ron with all the people in 1973 who felt he had a hall of fame career.
Santo couldn't even wear his batting helmet on straight.
That alone should exclude him from the Hall of Fame.
You can not have a thread about some of the most overrated baseball players of all time, and not mention THE MOST OVERRATED baseball player of all time. I've been banging the drum on this player for years, and slowly, but surely, more and more people seem to be coming around.
I'm convinced that most people don't actually watch the games anymore. Instead, they watch a few ESPN highlights and log into their computer to see what the newfangled stats say about W.A.R. or win shares or W.P.A. and make their determinations based on that.
It's been stated in this thread that you can be both great and overrated. I would agree with that. This player will absolutely make the Hall of Fame based on his accumulated stats. His plaque will encompass his greatness with the following:
"With 13-21 Seattle visiting the 11-22 Angels, he went 3-4 with a single, double, homerun, and a walk, scoring 4 times and driving in 6. He was greatest when it mattered least."
He can't do anything when it matters.
He has tremendous difficulty with the high fastball.
He's the king of called third strikes. In fact, in another thread last summer, I made the greatest called shot in baseball history, even better than the Babe's, when I noted that if you could make the Hall of Fame by being the best at watching called third strikes go by, then this guy is already an inner circle Hall of Famer. After that comment, he then proceeded to take 11 called third strikes in the next 13 games. Not just strike out 11 times in 13 games, but every strikeout he went down looking. The worst hitting pitchers don't get rung up that much. I'm sure the fancy schmancy stat guys will point out, it's not only the outs you make, but the outs you don't make. I'm sure by watching the strikes go by he was avoiding ripping a laser to the second baseman for some unassisted double and triple plays, thereby somehow increasing his value to the team and adding to his W.A.R.
He plays too deep in centerfield and let's too many balls fall in front of him. Runners routinely read that he got a poor jump and can tell it's going to fall in so are already headed to the next base. They don't fear to challenge his both weak and inaccurate arm, and take the extra base that way, too. Statcast rated him in the 1st percentile for outfielders on his jumps. In case you didn't know, that's bad! Every single slug that calls himself a MLB outfielder is ahead of him in the rankings. Statcast ranked him in the 9th percentile for outs above average. A teeny bit better than his jumps, but still putrid.
He has no heart, and is a fake on the level of A-Rod.
He wakes up every night in a cold sweat, and faintly in the wind, he hears the ghost of Ventura wailing, "Look at the scoreboard, kiiiiid!!!"
I'm talking about this guy...
.
Yes, Michael Nelson Trout, The Most Overrated Baseball Player in History!
Baseball is back, and so is The Count!
I did mention his achievements - specifically said he had four great years (to be fair, one of those four wasn't a full season).
C'mon, make your case that he's NOT overrated. Prove he's the greatest of all-time, or top 3 at least.
Leo Durocher asked Topps to honor Ron with a card of what he was most likely to do in big moments, in key ball games when the Cubs needed him the most. Here’s what the experts at Topps came up with.
Not direct proof that Koufax was the greatest (this is highly subjective to me) but this a good three minute discussion Pete Rose had with Cowherd. I found it entertaining anyway. It's worth taking a gander. For the record, I don't like Cowherd but this was pretty good. Like Yogi Berra, 1B coach for the Yankees during the '63 WS. said, "I can see how he (Sandy Koufax) won twenty-five games. What I don't understand is how he lost five." I think his dominance in the postseason adds to his fame and allure.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ppMRNWFfb4k
Nah, I've got anything better to do.
Now that's funny.
I am likely to get flamed for this, but personally, I think Mickey Mantle is underrated in several ways. First of all, he was the fastest player in the league when he entered and still holds the record (tied with the great Willie Wilson) for the fastest time ever from home to first. He holds the “official” record for the longest homerun ever hit (not tied with Willie Wilson) although I believe the best player ever (Babe Ruth) likely truly holds that one. Finally, he was the most powerful switch hitter that ever played (vouched for by Teddy Ballgame). He is unquestionably one of the top 5 players ever and is often noted as a “what if” guy, which is fair. If only he had the dedication of a Gehrig, Ripken, or Aaron, what numbers could he have put up? He also was GREAT in the clutch which counts for a lot in my opinion. Finally, he is from Oklahoma and so am I. LOL BTW - Mantle said Koufax was nearly unhittable and that DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player he ever saw and played alongside.
Mickey Mantle sucked, don't you know anything???
Lots and lots of players had 5 superb years.
My favorite player, Harmon Killebrew had about 8. I think Carl and Harmon were the best two players in the AL during the 1960's. Killebrew is 87th All-Time in OPS, so even though he never (quite) had a year like Yaz in 1967, he had more great years and ended up with a much higher spot on the all time OPS list.
Another guy that was better than either Carl or Harmon was Frank Robinson who had thirteen seasons with over a 150 OPS+. Even Al Kaline who never had a "monster" year ended up with a higher OPS and SLG than Yaz because he had a MUCH more consistent career.
If you need more great outfielders who were better; Mays, Mantle, Aaron. Those are just guys who had at least "10 superb years". I could name a lot more if we go into different eras and include the infield. Five superb years is pretty common for a HOFer.
I wouldn't say I rate Yaz "poorly" at all, and don't understand why you would say that. All I have done is look at his numbers. Have I made a mistake somewhere?
I did point out that I felt he deserved a couple more MVP awards.
I rated him a superior defensive player. But he didn't play a high value position. He also didn't strike out too much, and walked a lot. A great "all around player", but not a great hitter, outside of those 5 years.
Eleven years Yaz had an OPS of under .800, that's about half his career. He had two great and one very good seasons in his last 13 years, that's an awful lot of solid, but not HOF type seasons.
I never said Carl wasn't worthy of the HOF, but for a HOFer he had a LOT of not so great years.
I completely agree. Mantle is highly underrated.
i think this is a very accurate overview of Carls career
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Good points.
I think Mantle overall, probably had the most perfect body of all time, made to play the game of baseball as a hitter and fielder.
If only he had taken better care of it.
I want someone to comment on Mike Trout being accused of being overrated, yes? No?
This is one of the obvious ways you can tell that this entire thread is just a joke. We're three pages into it and not a single poster has even defined what "overrated" means, or how any of the players mentioned in it are supposedly "rated". Read through it and substitute the word "volugluted" for "overrated" and it changes nothing. (Yes, I just made up the word "volugluted").
My favorite joke, so far, is the one where we learned that Yaz's OPS dropped 199 points against LHP, and that Ted Williams wasn't impressed with Yaz as a hitter. The part that was left out - the part that made that post comedy gold - was that Williams' OPS dropped 221 points against LHP. So Ted Williams is even more volugluted than Yaz!
Thank you to Goldenage for creating this thread to entertain me, and thanks to all of you who agreed to participate. It's like Christmas and my birthday all rolled into one!
Never thought that I would ever see a thread where Rickey Henderson, Mike Trout and Sandy Koufax were all called overrated. This thread is in consideration for the hall of let's just make outlandish remarks to get reactions.
🍻👍👍
Just for the laugh from the "pop out" card of Ron Santo, this thread was worth it.
Williams OPS against RH=1.151
Yaz OPS against RH=.891
Williams OPS against LH=.930
Yaz OPS against LH=.692
Ted Williams OPS against LH was higher than Yaz's against RH, so I would say he was about a million times better hitter. Maybe a trillion, probably a septillion.
Neither could hold a candle to Gene Tenace.
Interesting word "volugluted" a new one for me. I couldn't find it's meaning, but I'll infer it's meaning.
Overrated by definition means you get more credit than you deserve.
If you made the baseball hall of fame when you got only 4% of the vote on the first try when another 3rd baseman got 92% of the vote, then we see that you really don’t belong. And you actually never got enough votes.
When you sucked away from the Wrigley launching pad, and sucked in key games (1969), and your manager even said it, and you’re in the hall, then not only are you over rated, but you are highly over rated.
So thanks to goldenage, we all know the truth about the most over rated 3rd baseman of all time.
Stop it, man, you're killing me!
How do you know I'm a man ?
Perhaps you are afraid of getting schooled by a female !!!
Put that in your monk soup and stir it !
First rule of posting. Never assume.
You know what happens when you do that ?
You get vulugluted?
Oh Mr. Dallas.
Do we not practice what we preach ?
Do we say out of one side of our mouth that we will never be "goaded".
Then only later do we find ourselves "goading" with everyone ?
Why can't we be consistent with what comes out of our mouths ?
Why must we always be conflicted in our own mind ?
If we really are a man of principle (or woman LOL), we'd stick to our principles and never be "goaded".
Please never post in this very enlightening thread again. Or you only show people what you truly are.
A person who either can never make up his mind, or a person who says one thing, but does the other.
Sincerely,
4%
Looks like someone's been "goaded" !!!!
LOL
You posted a picture of yourself from the 1980's and you had a beard.
So there's three options.
1. You're a male
2. You're the bearded lady at county carnivals
3. You took the Bruce Jenner route.
Shhhh !!!!
You spilled my beans. LOL
Bring it in, big fella!
Tom Brady is the GOAT
Dallas is the GOAD
You go girl.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
Greatest of All Dancers!
I've heard those sentiments forever, but it doesn't really make them true. There has to be more evidence than that, and his manager may just be directing the blame elsewhere for their collapse that year.
I don't think it is fair to slap that label onto someone with such little evidence, and it was only one year too.
For the ballpark, the OPS+ has it baked in there already, and in cases like Dimaggio and left field at Yankee Stadium where there is clear logic to him being hurt more than the OPS+ shows....with Santo and Wrigley, it isn't quite as clear. There is as good a chance that it was just random luck for his big splits(outside of the already baked in park factor). There is a chance he was helped more so...but I'm not sure that will ever be truly solved.
Was it random luck in 1979 that the Phillies and Cubs scored 45 runs on 50 hits at Wrigley field in an afternoon game ?
Or was it because the wind was blowing out at the old launching pad ?
Including his legs, which were a mess? He had to tape them up before every game. His legs were bad news from the time he tripped of the sprinkler in his rookie season.
Santo had hits in 10 of the last 14 games of the year, 1 of which he didn't start, and reached based on 2 of the 4 he didn't get a hit. So he reached base in 12 of the 14 games. He homered twice in that stretch, exactly what you'd expect from a guy who averages about 25 homers a year.
so you are saying ted is worth about 5 percent more than Yaz
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
LOL. Yes, that's exactly what I said. You obviously get the spirit of this thread.
7.82%
The HOF'er I always name in these threads was about as good as Mario Mendoza.
Rabbit Maranville......... in the golden age of the .400 hitter managed a lifetime BA of .258
which would mean in todays' game he would hit maybe .220
But he was fast wasn't he? Well he was 1920's white guy fast. Which translates today of
having about the same speed as a 42-53 year old Albert Pujols or however old he is.
Great on defense correct? Well if he kept the errors under 50 per year it seems that was a pretty
good defensive year for him.
I'm actually convinced this guy got in the HOF just on a nickname alone. Rabbit.
He should be kicked out just on this simple statistic alone.
As I mentioned he played in the golden age of the .400 hitter. Not uncommon at all for
players to hit over .400 and many players would hit .350-.370 and nobody would blink
an eye because that was common.
But our hero? Well in a long 20+ year career he never hit over .300 !!!!!!!!!!!
I hereby declare Mario Mendoza was a better player then Maranville and its pretty much checkmate on any viable retorts.
As good as the Yaz/Williams joke was, you took the crown with this one! And bonus points for originality; even though I still have no idea what "overrated" means in this thread, I surely would never have thought that Maranville or Mendoza would make an appearance in it. And the irony of declaring possibly the worst baseball player in history as better than a bona fide HOFer, and thereby making Mario Mendoza himself the most overrated player ever - that was a masterstroke. Seriously, very well done.
Fair enough. If you're going to claim Killebrew had eight superb seasons, then we obviously have different definitions of what a superb season is.
If you say that the fourth-best left fielder by JAWS doesn't make your top ten left fielders, and disappears if you bring in the entire outfield, then yes, I'll say you rate him poorly.
Even though you didn't ask, I see a player with three superb years, six more that were very good, and a solid contributor every year from when he was 20 to when he was 40. That's inner circle.
You're right.
In discussions such as this, Rabbit Maranville used to be my main whipping boy until Bill Mazeroski came along.
Ron Santo 15 year Hall of Fame career OPS+ 125
Dwight Evans 20 year not hall of fame career OPS+ 127
Winner Dwight Evans
Ron Santo 15 year Hall of Fame career OBP .362
Dwight Evans 20 year non hall of fame career OBP .370
Winner Dwight Evans
Ron Santo 15 year Hall of Fame career SLUGGING .464
Dwight Evans 20 year non hall of fame career SLUGGING .470
Winner Dwight Evans
Defensive stats look similar.
Santo in the hall.
Dwight Evans not in the hall.
Seems to me that someone on this list is quite over rated.
In 1969:
Up to August 15 Santo hit .302/.398/.522. He was a big reason they were 9 games up in first place on Aug 15. Do those not count as big games?
What counts as a big regular season game? Is it only the last few games of the season? None of the season long battle for first place games count as big games?
From Aug 15 to the end of the year he slumped. No doubt with a .723 OPS.> @Tabe said:
Yes, I agree. If that is the definition of failure, and that standard is applied to everyone, then a whole lot of players are going to be considered failures.
Thanks Dallas, all compliments appreciated!
George Brett got 98% on his first ballot. The writers knew what Brett did during the regular season and during the postseason. Ron Santo got 4% on his first ballot. The writers never did vote Santo in btw.
Seems to me like Goldenage and the writers are on the same page.
Seems to me like the snowflakes are falling from the sky trying to stand up for Mr. Pop Up.
His former team mates would be on my side too.
Santo angered some of his teammates. Santo’s intense personality resulted in conflicts with some of his Cubs teammates. He simply hated to lose, a quality that led to a few postgame pop-offs with the press. After Don Young, an inexperienced center fielder, made two errors in a July 1969 loss to the Mets, Santo criticized his teammate through the media. According to some, Santo’s biting comments destroyed Young’s confidence, thereby stunting his development.
Santo also had two severe personality clashes with teammates, one that was famous and the other more obscure. The lesser-known squabble involved Rico Carty, who played for the Cubs briefly in 1973. Terming Santo a selfish player who had little interest in team goals, Carty predicted the Cubs would never win a division title or league pennant until they rid themselves of their longtime third baseman. And then, after being traded to the cross-town White Sox, Santo locked horns with Dick Allen. Santo criticized Allen for being lazy; Allen responded by calling Santo egotistical and presumptuous. Safe to say, it was a stormy season on the south side of Chicago in 1974.
Mazeroski is a good choice also. Like you said he's only a HOF'er because of a famous
post season HR. Maranville is only in because of his nickname.
Santo was a hot dog and a showboat. During the 1969 season, Santo jumped into the air and clicked his heels after a number of Cubs victories. He started the ritual on June 22, after Jim Hickman hit a walkoff home run to beat the expansion Montreal Expos. Santo jumped into the air three times, clicking his heels on each occasion. The next day, Leo Durocher asked Santo to click his heels after every home victory at Wrigley Field. Santo did so through early September, when the Cubs fell from first place.
This habit became a point of contention with some members of the media and Cubs opponents, particularly the rival Mets. During the 1960s and early ’70s, players were expected to conduct themselves in businesslike fashion, even after wins. There were no bunny hops after walkoff home runs, no shaving cream pies thrown into the face of that day’s hero. Santo’s “heel clicks” might have been considered acceptable in today’s flashier game, but not in 1969. In some ways, Santo never really lived down those heel clicks, especially after the Cubs collapsed in August and September and eventually lost the pennant to the Mets.
Goldenage- Dwight Evans should be in the Hof In my opinion.
As an everyday player he was above average in every phase.
Hitting, fielding, baserunning, arm strength. He was so valuable just to
plug into the lineup every day and get the consistency that he brought.
Unlike Maz and Maranville who were so one dimensional or in Rabbits' case
zero dimensional that in the course of a career they just hurt their team so much
with their complete incompetence at the plate.
Another player that should be in the HOF is Will Clark. He's being punished too much
for retiring early. His last season was a great year and he could have continued at
a high level but he simply didn't want to.
Non Hof'er Will Clarks career OPS+ - 137. Maranville- 82. Maz- 84. LOL.