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Some of the most over rated baseball players of all time.

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  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021 1:46PM

    @coinkat said:
    @Goldenage

    I do not reduce my evaluation of a player solely to stats and numbers as there is more to measuring greatness.

    When Santo first became eligible for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1980, he was named on less than four percent of all ballots cast by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA), resulting in his removal from the ballot in subsequent years.

    He was one of several players re-added to the ballot in 1985 following widespread complaints about overlooked candidates.

    4% of the ballot in your first year of eligibility ???

    Would you like me to compare that to Brooks, Brett, Schmidt, and Eddie ?

    OVER RATED !!!!!

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Santo's batting statistics over the course of his career, were significantly better at home than on the road. He hit 216 of his 342 home runs at home, and only 126 on the road. His career batting average at home was .296, versus .257 on the road.

    .257 outside of Wrigley. Plus Durocher said he wouldn't hit a lick in big games, but he'd put up big numbers in blow out games. The guy was weak on the road and weak in big, tight games. Yeah, he's hall of fame material. LOL

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmm. George Brett got 98.2% on his first ballot. Ron Santo got 4%

    Is the truth sinking in yet everyone ?

    LOL

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What you have posted is not persuasive to conclude Santo is over rated. While you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions... so am I.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021 2:11PM

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    What you have posted is not persuasive to conclude Santo is over rated. While you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions... so am I.

    To those who understand no explanation is necessary. To those who don't understand, no explanation will suffice.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And then there are those that understand and appreciate there is more to baseball than numbers.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @coinkat said:
    @Goldenage

    I do not reduce my evaluation of a player solely to stats and numbers as there is more to measuring greatness.

    When Santo first became eligible for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1980, he was named on less than four percent of all ballots cast by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA), resulting in his removal from the ballot in subsequent years.

    He was one of several players re-added to the ballot in 1985 following widespread complaints about overlooked candidates.

    4% of the ballot in your first year of eligibility ???

    Would you like me to compare that to Brooks, Brett, Schmidt, and Eddie ?

    OVER RATED !!!!!

    Of course Brett, Schmidt, and Matthews aren't the standard for HoF third basemen. I don't think anyone is saying that Santo is the best of all time, just that he, like Rolen, is elite and should be no-brainer HoFers. You don't have to go to the "If Baines is in, then. . ." argument for these guys. An "If Murray is in. . ." argument is good enough. Neither one is a borderline HoFer. Both improve, or would improve, the average of the HoF if they wee there.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.

    5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.

    Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904

    Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.

    Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.

    Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • ringerringer Posts: 342 ✭✭✭

    Mazeroski has to be #1.

    But two all time greats that I think are generally overrated as well: Nolan Ryan and Ricky Henderson.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.

    5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.

    Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904

    Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.

    Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.

    Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.

    I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Brock is in the Hall mainly for his ability to steal bases... anyone that stole over 900 in their career deserves to be there. Not overrated... he recognized for a talent that few have.

    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    Hack Wilson overrated? Looking at his career and the issues he had in his personal life... some of which were beyond his control... unfortunately lead some to think his is not worthy. I disagree as most here take a modern yardstick and apply it to the game that was different 90 years ago. Wilson had unique issues that we should not pass judgment and acknowledge what he did and when he did it.

    Santo? Seems part of the reason he has been falsely accused here is because he played for the Cubs and obviously the Cubs played at Wrigley Field. Santo was an exciting third baseman in a similar tradition of Brooks Robinson. I see him as being worthy of the HOF.

    Seems we need to be careful about stats and what they mean mainly because there are still what ifs that really do not capture or memorialize greatness.

    Let's take a moment and change the discussion. Camilo Pascual was a pitcher with significant talent that pitched for the Washington Senators starting in the 1954-55 time frame and made the move to Minnesota in 1961. He lead the AL in strikeouts and/or was in the top 5 for many seasons. Only the most ardent baseball fans/historians probably remember the name. He retired in 1971 and finished with a 174-170 record. Ted Williams said of Pascual that he had one of the best curve balls in the American league that he had ever seen.

    So... what is my point with mentioning Pascual?

    Folks here are punishing Santo for playing at Wrigley and citing better stats for Santo as Wrigley has a long standing tradition of being a hitters park. So using Pascual's misfortune in terms of being a starter for the Senators and not a decent hitting team like the Yankees, is there not a double standard here? Had Pascual not pitched for the last place Senators for years, what would his legacy be? Obviously far more significant than it currently stands. Yes Pascual had great seasons for the Twins in the early 1960s but that illustrates my point as to his talent. He likely would be in the HOF if more of his career was spent with a decent hitting/fielding team. And that did not happen and Pascual slides into obscurity instead having a place in baseball he may deserve.

    If you folks want to close the thread... well that is you prerogative as I would not have started one in the first place.

    first off, do you not believe in park effect? if not, why?

    Brock was not really a great base stealer. yes, he stole a lot of bases, but at what cost. he was thrown out 307 times. that is a TON of potential rallies killed. there is a break even point of around 75% where it is not even worth it to steal a base. guess where Brock is lifetime? you guessed it, 75%. all of those steals were basically a net zero because of the rate Lou got thrown out. coupled with his lack of power and poor on base percentage, yeah, he is pretty overrated.

    as for wilson, he had about 5 great seasons. the alcoholism was terrible and no doubt ended his career prematurely, but you dont get credits for what ifs. otherwise, Herb Score would be in the HOF

    Look, I loved Yaz. but half of his 23 year career was pretty average. that is alot. He did have 4 or 5 all time great seasons, but is that enough spread out over a 23 year career?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.

    5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.

    Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904

    Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.

    Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.

    Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.

    I can remember reading about Teds thoughts about Yaz. you are right, he was not impressed.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 6:04AM

    @Goldenage said:
    Santo.....falsely accused ?

    The numbers don’t lie. There is a big drop off in his production hitting at Wrigley and away from Wrigley.

    You basically feel that Scott Rolen is hall of fame material, because he and Santo are one in the same.

    Neither are hall of fame, and Santo is Graig Nettles or less if he didn’t play in Wrigley.

    I'm not sure using Nettles and Rolen as comps to downgrade Santo are appropriate, as both of those players have support from several people as HOF candidates teh> @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is excellent. His peak is excellent, and he was still an above average hitter even into his 40's. He doesn't have some of those high per year home runs partly because he walked a lot, and he played some years during the mini dead ball era of the 60's..

    Yaz;s OPS+ after 9,100 Plate Appearances was 139. That is outstanding.
    Brett OPS+ after 9,100 Plate Appearances was 142. Outstanding and a little better than Yaz.

    What did they do after that?

    Yaz made it through another 4,876 plate appearances at a 113 OPS+
    Brett only made it through another 2,429 plate appearances with a 112 OPS+

    Looking at that breakdown, Brett and Yaz were very close for what comprised the meat of their career. Then were similar as well for the end of their career, except Yaz did it during 2,400 more plate appearances than Brett. That extra value there wipes out the small lead Brett had in the meat of their career.

    I think it is unfair the way you are doing that above. If you apply similar standards to George Brett, Brett only hit more than 25 home runs just once in his career. Brett only eclipsed a .400 OB% three times. Brett hit under 20 home runs eleven seasons in his career, and over 20 home runs only eight times.

    If you believe that Fenway helped Yaz more than what OPS+ is already accounting for, then yes, it is going to look different than the above comparisons.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see how a player can truly be "underrated" if they are in the Hall of Fame?

    Are some players in the Hall not as good as others in the Hall? Well of course. But overall, that doesn't make them underrated.

    Players can only be overrated if they are in the Hall of Fame in my humble opinion, and some of them have already been mentioned in this thread.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's where I stand.

    These are the only 3rd basemen that should be in the hall of fame.

    Matthews, Brooks, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Beltre, Molitor, Chipper.

    Rolen, Santo, and Nettles do not belong in the hall.

    If I had to choose any of the three that do not belong just to keep the snowflakes happy, Rolen is the easy answer.

    Santo and Nettles should never even sniff the hall, as the writers who only gave Santo 4% accurately assessed
    his playing career.

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 6:18AM

    @Goldenage said:
    Here's where I stand.

    These are the only 3rd basemen that should be in the hall of fame.

    Matthews, Brooks, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Beltre, Molitor, Chipper.

    Rolen, Santo, and Nettles do not belong in the hall.

    If I had to choose any of the three that do not belong just to keep the snowflakes happy, Rolen is the easy answer.

    Santo and Nettles should never even sniff the hall, as the writers who only gave Santo 4% accurately assessed
    his playing career.

    I agree for the most part, but my reasoning for Santo is a little different. His career was just too short, and his 125 OPS+ simply isn't good to merit HOF consideration for someone who was done at age 34..

    That is why I prefer players like Winfield who had a great peak AND the long sustained ability to play and contribute. To me, that is what a HOFer should look like. Exceptions for players suffering from loss of seasons due to World Wars or because they were barred from playing due to race.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ringer said:
    Mazeroski has to be #1.

    But two all time greats that I think are generally overrated as well: Nolan Ryan and Ricky Henderson.

    Henderson is another player that is grossly UNDERrated. There is considerable debate whether he is good enough to be a HoFer. Bill James, when asked about twenty years ago, said you could divide Henderson's career in two, and you'd have two HoFers. It's pretty easy to make a case for Henderson to be one of the top 25 in baseball history.

    Ryan is terribly overrated, and it is a joke that he is in the Hall while Clemens is on the outside. No concrete evidence for either player using PEDs, of course, but the same arguments used against Clemens work against Ryan. Consider that if he had retired after his age 39 season he would have had a career of similar value, but much more flash, to Koosman, Appier, Cole Hamels, Wilbur Wood, Viola, Langston, guys like that. Good, solid pitchers, but no one would think they belong in the Hall. Then, from 1987 to 1991 he puts together the best five year stretch of his career and has numbers of a solid, though middling, HoFer. Now I contend that regardless of your feelings on PEDs, if you have two players with a career arc that suggests something suspicious but have HoF numbers, you can either induct both, induct neither, or induct the better of the two. Clemens was so much better than Ryan by any objective measure that it is a sad joke to have Ryan enshrined and not Clemens regardless of your views on the HoF.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Here's where I stand.

    These are the only 3rd basemen that should be in the hall of fame.

    Matthews, Brooks, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Beltre, Molitor, Chipper.

    Rolen, Santo, and Nettles do not belong in the hall.

    If I had to choose any of the three that do not belong just to keep the snowflakes happy, Rolen is the easy answer.

    Santo and Nettles should never even sniff the hall, as the writers who only gave Santo 4% accurately assessed
    his playing career.

    I can respect that. I'm not going to get into any arguments about the size of the Hall, and if your stance is that there are about twice as many players there than should be (15 third basemen, Beltre not enshrined). IMO Robinson is close enough to Santo to not argue about, and even though both are clearly better than Molitor, I can accept the "compiler" argument to put him in and leave Santo out. So I disagree with your list, but I respect it. Now if you said, say, George Kell, should be in over any of those three (or at least a dozen others) we'd have a problem.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    And then there are those that understand and appreciate there is more to > @daltex said:

    @ringer said:
    Mazeroski has to be #1.

    But two all time greats that I think are generally overrated as well: Nolan Ryan and Ricky Henderson.

    Henderson is another player that is grossly UNDERrated. There is considerable debate whether he is good enough to be a HoFer. Bill James, when asked about twenty years ago, said you could divide Henderson's career in two, and you'd have two HoFers. It's pretty easy to make a case for Henderson to be one of the top 25 in baseball history.

    Ryan is terribly overrated, and it is a joke that he is in the Hall while Clemens is on the outside. No concrete evidence for either player using PEDs, of course, but the same arguments used against Clemens work against Ryan. Consider that if he had retired after his age 39 season he would have had a career of similar value, but much more flash, to Koosman, Appier, Cole Hamels, Wilbur Wood, Viola, Langston, guys like that. Good, solid pitchers, but no one would think they belong in the Hall. Then, from 1987 to 1991 he puts together the best five year stretch of his career and has numbers of a solid, though middling, HoFer. Now I contend that regardless of your feelings on PEDs, if you have two players with a career arc that suggests something suspicious but have HoF numbers, you can either induct both, induct neither, or induct the better of the two. Clemens was so much better than Ryan by any objective measure that it is a sad joke to have Ryan enshrined and not Clemens regardless of your views on the HoF.

    I concur. Clemens was much, much, much better than Ryan. Yet he still waits on the outside looking in.

    people assume he used PED because that is what ESPN told them. there was no credible evidence against him.

    a lie, when told enough, becomes the truth.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    I heard that he joined a monastery in Tibet where he gets in cordial debates over which monk is the greatest checkers player of all time.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.

    5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.

    Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904

    Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.

    Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.

    Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.

    I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.

    Yaz was a terrific player who had a few tremendous offensive years and a LOT of above average, but not HOF, years. He was the best player in the AL for 5-6 years, but not even in the top 10 as a hitter, when he wasn't the #1 guy. Huge difference.

    He certainly got screwed in 1968 and 1970 in the MVP voting.

    He gets remembered for the incredible years, but not mentioned for the other years. Seems like it's not pointed out that he was very good, not great, for 75% of his career.

    JAWS has a few problems here if you just focus on WAR. Longevity here seems to really help Yaz, and that's fine. He should get credit for most of those years.

    Williams is head and shoulders above everyone, I ignore Bonds, he was great but I have no idea how to rank him, he certainly doesn't belong above Williams.

    Rose was an infielder, he doesn't belong on the list.

    I would rank Billy Williams above Yaz, Ralph Kiner would be #2 if he had played longer, Tim Raines should be ranked higher than he is imo. Then you get to the "old timers"; Al Simmons was better than Yaz, and certainly Goose Goslin, Ed Delahanty was a better hitter, but Yaz played so much longer, he gets rewarded.

    Being #3 all time in at bats really makes it a tough comparison, when guys who were "better" had much shorter careers.

    8 out of Carl's last 9 years were not great, 3 of his last 4 were part time years that get rewarded (IMO) with an inflated OPS+.

    To look a little more positively at Yaz, he was a GREAT defender who had about 10 years as the best in that category.

    However, the problem to me is LF is generally where you put your worst outfielder. The Green Monster certainly helped him in the assists area I would say.

    Top 10 Left Fielder, he disappears if you bring in the entire outfield.

    He's 213th (all positions) all time in OPS.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The career of Yaz is exactly like Marty Brodeur and Patrick Roy.

    They all had a few great seasons, but for 75% of their careers they were average, or just good.

    Yet you can't tell Boston Red Sox fans, NJ Devil fans, or Patrick Roy fans that.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    The career of Yaz is exactly like Marty Brodeur and Patrick Roy.

    They all had a few great seasons, but for 75% of their careers they were average, or just good.

    Yet you can't tell Boston Red Sox fans, NJ Devil fans, or Patrick Roy fans that.

    I was never a Yaz guy, I’m a Big Papi guy

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    I heard that he joined a monastery in Tibet where he gets in cordial debates over which monk is the greatest checkers player of all time.

    This is correct. His means of transportation was the UFO Baker Mayfield and his wife saw last night.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @Goldenage said:
    The career of Yaz is exactly like Marty Brodeur and Patrick Roy.

    They all had a few great seasons, but for 75% of their careers they were average, or just good.

    Yet you can't tell Boston Red Sox fans, NJ Devil fans, or Patrick Roy fans that.

    I was never a Yaz guy, I’m a Big Papi guy

    I wish Yaz would have come up bigger in that Bucky Dent game. A home run in that last at bat would have
    been awesome, but he was facing a tough pitcher.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @perkdog said:

    @Goldenage said:
    The career of Yaz is exactly like Marty Brodeur and Patrick Roy.

    They all had a few great seasons, but for 75% of their careers they were average, or just good.

    Yet you can't tell Boston Red Sox fans, NJ Devil fans, or Patrick Roy fans that.

    I was never a Yaz guy, I’m a Big Papi guy

    I wish Yaz would have come up bigger in that Bucky Dent game. A home run in that last at bat would have
    been awesome, but he was facing a tough pitcher.

    Agreed. Everything was right there, playoffs, Yankees.. Uhhk it’s just a part of the painful history of the Sox pre 2004

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    The career of Yaz is exactly like Marty Brodeur and Patrick Roy.

    They all had a few great seasons, but for 75% of their careers they were average, or just good.

    Yet you can't tell Boston Red Sox fans, NJ Devil fans, or Patrick Roy fans that.

    lifelong red sox fan. I can handle that Capt. Carl was fairly average for half of his career.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.

    Does that JAWS ranking take into account that Yaz played over a third of his career at 1B/DH? Gotta question any ranking that puts Rose top 5 for a position he played 1/6th of his career.

    Where would I put Yaz? Not in the top 100 players of all-time, probably not in the top 200. He's definitely not the fourth-best LF of all-time. I have no problem with him in the Hall but he wasn't "great".

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @daltex said:

    I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.

    Does that JAWS ranking take into account that Yaz played over a third of his career at 1B/DH? Gotta question any ranking that puts Rose top 5 for a position he played 1/6th of his career.

    Where would I put Yaz? Not in the top 100 players of all-time, probably not in the top 200. He's definitely not the fourth-best LF of all-time. I have no problem with him in the Hall but he wasn't "great".

    in defense of Yaz, wasnt he great for the same amount of time Koufax was great?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    in defense of Yaz, wasnt he great for the same amount of time Koufax was great?

    Well, since I think Koufax is terribly overrated...

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 12:56PM

    Just want everyone to know that Dallas is ok. I heard from his driver to the monastery, and they had a cordial discussion about who was better, Mindy, or Laverne and Shirley.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Henderson and Brock were disrupters. Both were guys that are undervalued if anything. The fear of them getting on base changed the way some games were played. They were PITAS to play against

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Just want everyone to know that Dallas is ok. I heard from his driver to the monastery, and they had a cordial discussion about who was better, Mindy, or Laverne and Shirley.

    After the Koufax is "terribly overrated" ridiculous remark, I may join Dallas in the monastery.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 4:06PM

    @stevek said:

    After the Koufax is "terribly overrated" ridiculous remark, I may join Dallas in the monastery.

    Again, as I stated above, "overrated" doesn't mean "sucked".

    He had a 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium (by way of comparison, the entire National League had a 3.29 ERA in 1963 to take just one year). Of all the parks he pitched at least 10 times in (10 total), he had an ERA over 3.50 in half of them - and 3.98 or higher in four of them. In other words, where he pitched often, he was quite below average at least 40% of the time. He had four great seasons, one good (but incomplete) season, and seven average or worse seasons. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Koufax rose to prominence as soon as two things happened; the Dodgers moved into Chavez Ravine and the strike zone was increased in size. And, oh yeah, the NL expanding.

    Again, this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that. But Sandy's name is often thrown around as the greatest ever. He's not even remotely in that conversation, thus "terribly overrated".

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @stevek said:

    After the Koufax is "terribly overrated" ridiculous remark, I may join Dallas in the monastery.

    Again, as I stated above, "overrated" doesn't mean "sucked".

    He had a 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium (by way of comparison, the entire National League had a 3.29 ERA in 1963 to take just one year). Of all the parks he pitched at least 10 times in (10 total), he had an ERA over 3.50 in half of them - and 3.98 or higher in four of them. In other words, where he pitched often, he was quite below average at least 40% of the time. He had four great seasons, one good (but incomplete) season, and seven average or worse seasons. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Koufax rose to prominence as soon as two things happened; the Dodgers moved into Chavez Ravine and the strike zone was increased in size. And, oh yeah, the NL expanding.

    Again, this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that. But Sandy's name is often thrown around as the greatest ever. He's not even remotely in that conversation, thus "terribly overrated".

    "this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that."

    Well thank you very much Mr Sandy Koufax Hater, we really do appreciate the gracious compliment. 🙄

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 7:36PM

    @stevek said:

    @Tabe said:

    @stevek said:

    After the Koufax is "terribly overrated" ridiculous remark, I may join Dallas in the monastery.

    Again, as I stated above, "overrated" doesn't mean "sucked".

    He had a 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium (by way of comparison, the entire National League had a 3.29 ERA in 1963 to take just one year). Of all the parks he pitched at least 10 times in (10 total), he had an ERA over 3.50 in half of them - and 3.98 or higher in four of them. In other words, where he pitched often, he was quite below average at least 40% of the time. He had four great seasons, one good (but incomplete) season, and seven average or worse seasons. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Koufax rose to prominence as soon as two things happened; the Dodgers moved into Chavez Ravine and the strike zone was increased in size. And, oh yeah, the NL expanding.

    Again, this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that. But Sandy's name is often thrown around as the greatest ever. He's not even remotely in that conversation, thus "terribly overrated".

    "this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that."

    Well thank you very much Mr Sandy Koufax Hater, we really do appreciate the gracious compliment. 🙄

    Not a hater but hearing the truth about Koufax hurts, I know.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    Again, this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that. But Sandy's name is often thrown around as the greatest ever. He's not even remotely in that conversation, thus "terribly overrated".

    Agreed.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • bobbybakerivbobbybakeriv Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021 8:37PM

    I vote:

    1) Santo is " overrated," 2) Yaz is a legit HOF'er. and 3) Koufax was awesome and 100% deserves to be in the HOF. I don't know if he is the proverbial "greatest" but he was for a few years anyhow IMHO. I didn't see him pitch but I've read about him and, more importantly, what other MLB players said about facing him, (e.g. Aaron, Mantle, Stargell, Rose) That's enough for me. I'd take Koufax all day, everyday over Kershaw in the clutch. Just my two cents.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    Elvis Costello is certainly underrated

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    He was deciding between that or this.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @stevek said:

    @Tabe said:

    @stevek said:

    After the Koufax is "terribly overrated" ridiculous remark, I may join Dallas in the monastery.

    Again, as I stated above, "overrated" doesn't mean "sucked".

    He had a 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium (by way of comparison, the entire National League had a 3.29 ERA in 1963 to take just one year). Of all the parks he pitched at least 10 times in (10 total), he had an ERA over 3.50 in half of them - and 3.98 or higher in four of them. In other words, where he pitched often, he was quite below average at least 40% of the time. He had four great seasons, one good (but incomplete) season, and seven average or worse seasons. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Koufax rose to prominence as soon as two things happened; the Dodgers moved into Chavez Ravine and the strike zone was increased in size. And, oh yeah, the NL expanding.

    Again, this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that. But Sandy's name is often thrown around as the greatest ever. He's not even remotely in that conversation, thus "terribly overrated".

    "this is not to say he wasn't good or anything like that."

    Well thank you very much Mr Sandy Koufax Hater, we really do appreciate the gracious compliment. 🙄

    Not a hater but hearing the truth about Koufax hurts, I know.

    No, the truth is you conveniently neglected to mention Koufax's many remarkable achievements which most other Hall of Fame pitchers can only dream about.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    Elvis Costello is certainly underrated

    m

    That "Who's on First" baseball routine he did with Abbott was very funny.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @perkdog said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @perkdog said:
    It’s tragic that @dallasactuary isn't involved in this discussion 😒

    Tragic? You're missing the point of this thread, which is comedy. Goldenage kicked it off and I don't know how on Earth he got so many people to play along, but some of the posts here are hysterical. They've meticulously recreated what it would sound like if I wandered into a brain injury ward full of people who had never seen a baseball game all talking about baseball, trying to goad me into being condescending and making personal insults. Not going to work! I'm in on the joke, and loving it! :D

    😂😂😂. Your new sigline is hilarious btw 👏

    He was deciding between that or this.

    I think the fifth monk from the right around the middle of the pic wearing sunglasses is Dallas, but i may be mistaken.

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @daltex said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Tabe said:

    @coinkat said:
    Yaz overrated? That does not even come close to passing the straight face test and is simply not worthy of a reply.

    C'mon. Make your case that Yaz isn't overrated. Corner outfielders and 1B should hit for power or average - or both. 13 times in his 23-year career, Yaz hit fewer than 20 homers AND under .300. He hit 24+ homers just four times. 3 of those were, admittedly, 40+ during his incredible stretch from 1967-70.

    No one is saying Yaz wasn't, at the very least, outstanding if not great. But, really, go look at the numbers. Year after year of .265 with 15 homers. From 1971 to 1975, coming off that four year stretch mentioned above, Yaz averaged 144 games a year while averaging 15 homers. Yaz slugged under .400 four times in his career, and under .450 another 8 times. He hit .264 with a .779 OPS away from Fenway.

    Just remember, "overrated" doesn't mean "not good". Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter are both overrated. They're also great.

    Yaz is over rated. He certainly wasn't a slugger.

    5 superb years a couple of very good years and a LOT of slightly above average years, about 16 of those.

    Lifetime OPS against left handers was .692, RH .891. Away from Fenway .779, at home .904

    Against RH pitchers at Fenway he was incredible. His "good" years he did pretty well against LH hurlers and on the road. He was pretty horrible most years on the road against LH pitchers.

    Great defensive player. Poor base stealer. Rarely missed any games.

    Ted Williams was not impressed with Yaz's hitting.

    I'm confused. Where do you rank Yaz? How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? JAWS has him fourth best LF of all time behind Bonds, Williams, and Henderson. Rose is 5th. The difference between each of these players is huge. For example, Rose is closer to number 11 Billy Williams than he is to Yaz. Now understand that I'm not claiming that Yaz is the fourth best LF of all time, but my argument is two pronged: first, that I'd bet most of the people on this forum don't have him ranked anywhere near that high, and second, that fact would make him UNDERrated rather than overrated.

    Yaz was a terrific player who had a few tremendous offensive years and a LOT of above average, but not HOF, years. He was the best player in the AL for 5-6 years, but not even in the top 10 as a hitter, when he wasn't the #1 guy. Huge difference.

    He certainly got screwed in 1968 and 1970 in the MVP voting.

    He gets remembered for the incredible years, but not mentioned for the other years. Seems like it's not pointed out that he was very good, not great, for 75% of his career.

    JAWS has a few problems here if you just focus on WAR. Longevity here seems to really help Yaz, and that's fine. He should get credit for most of those years.

    Williams is head and shoulders above everyone, I ignore Bonds, he was great but I have no idea how to rank him, he certainly doesn't belong above Williams.

    Rose was an infielder, he doesn't belong on the list.

    I would rank Billy Williams above Yaz, Ralph Kiner would be #2 if he had played longer, Tim Raines should be ranked higher than he is imo. Then you get to the "old timers"; Al Simmons was better than Yaz, and certainly Goose Goslin, Ed Delahanty was a better hitter, but Yaz played so much longer, he gets rewarded.

    Being #3 all time in at bats really makes it a tough comparison, when guys who were "better" had much shorter careers.

    8 out of Carl's last 9 years were not great, 3 of his last 4 were part time years that get rewarded (IMO) with an inflated OPS+.

    To look a little more positively at Yaz, he was a GREAT defender who had about 10 years as the best in that category.

    However, the problem to me is LF is generally where you put your worst outfielder. The Green Monster certainly helped him in the assists area I would say.

    Top 10 Left Fielder, he disappears if you bring in the entire outfield.

    He's 213th (all positions) all time in OPS.

    OK. I hear and acknowledge what you've said. Now, please answer my question: How many players do you think there are who had "5 superb years"? For that matter, how many players were the best in their respective leagues for 5-6 years? I'm just using your words here and trying to understand why you rate him so poorly. Again, I claim that makes him underrated.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    and i'm giving Gene Tenace a longing look

    everyday, everyday, everyday, everyday i write the book

    you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet

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