Would You Consider this Coin to be 'Badly Cleaned', or 'Acceptably Cleaned' ?

Eddi

The purchase of this coin goes back to the days when dealers would advertise in coin magazines, often without pictures, and also often, as I recall, with scant descriptions. This one, bought in 1986 was, If I remember correctly, simply described as "1862 Seated Dollar - About Uncirculated".

When the package arrived from the U.S (I live in Germany), I was unhappy the coin showed no toning. Not quite what I was expecting for the price I paid. I was young, more eager than cautious, and overexcited to have a scarce Civil War date in my collection, and probably should have been more prudent and ask more details from the seller.

I recall considering shipping the coin back to the seller. The lack of toning was disappointing. However, on the plus side, my inexperience eyes could not detect major or obvious signs of harsh cleaning, and major hairlines or scratches, and the level of detail was nice. For these reasons, and because of complications in shipping coins internationally, customs issues, and potential for loss, I ultimately decided to keep it.

Anyway, here she is. Still raw as the majority of my collection. Based on these pictures, would you consider the coin to be badly cleaned, or would you say the cleaning was done carefully and is still acceptable?

I also want to add that given the fact both PCGS and NGC have a European presence, I have been considering submitting my U.S collection for slabbing. I ask myself therefore if I should submit this one, and kindly request your opinions.

Thank you!

Eduard

Mdcoincollector2003

I would rarely consider a clean a good clean; however, this is much better then some I have seen.

TennesseeDave

I would say you have a 50/ 50 chance of a straight grade. Doesn't look harshly cleaned to me. I like the date.

BillJones

The piece has begun to re-tone, which is making it look a little nicer, but I don’t think that it will get a straight grade. The original surfaces have been stripped, and, from the photo, very little of the mint luster is left despite the fact that the coin has AU sharpness. I once had an 1861 Proof Seated Dollar the was similar to this.

PerryHall

It looks like it may have been dipped rather than "cleaned" which implies hairlined or otherwise impaired surfaces. The major grading services straight grade dipped coins all the time. I still remember seeing a capped bust half at a coin show about 20 years ago that was blast white and housed in an MS63 PCGS slab. The coin looked beautiful with full blast white luster but it looked strange seeing a coin almost two centuries old that looked like it was made yesterday. I was tempted to buy it but I just couldn't talk myself into doing it.

BillJones

Here is the 1861 dollar I once owned. According to the dealer friend who sold this piece to me, it had been a very nice, original surface Proof dollar until a poorly informed (reality "stupid") owner cleaned it. I eventually sold this piece to a dealer who specialized in selling raw coins. Yes, there are still a few dealer who do that. Despite the issues, the dealer still paid me about $1,100 for this piece more than a decade ago.

This is a digital picture that was made from a slide transparency, but I think you will get the idea.

ricko

I would say you should submit the coin....It does not show cleaning hairlines - so it may straight grade. Let us know what happens. Cheers, RickO

coinkat

I see a difference between badly cleaned... cleaned but still unacceptable... enhanced but to some it passes the straight face test... and finally enhanced

In my view, it falls within the cleaned but still unacceptable range. I also think that if this coin straight grades at 45 becomes the 2021 posterchild coin for the need for an original surfaces designation by TPG services. I have advocated an original surfaces designation on this forum for the better part of 15 years... I have conceded it likely will never happen, but seeing a coin such as this is exhibit A as to the need.

MFeld

The obverse, in particular, looks noticeably cleaned. I'd be surprised if it were to receive a straight grade.

291fifth

It will not straight grade. It is a dipped coin that will still have demand for album collectors on a budget. Seated Dollars are always in demand as type coins and many collectors will find that coin acceptable if the price is right.

braddick

If the obverse takes on the "look" as the reverse (eventually?) then it would have a chance. Otherwise, a fairly nice raw Seated dollar as so many have been cleaned to heck and back.

JBN

The area around the date and the area proximate to Liberty's right shoulder show some signs of cleaning. I do not think the coin is 'badly cleaned'. These are big beautiful coins that uninformed individuals have a hard time resisting actions to 'improve' them. I would be surprised if the coin straight graded. Though it is a desirable civil war date and presents itself nicely.

PerryHall

A few years in a 2"X2" Kraft paper envelope stored in a warm place would would greatly help this coin.

DollarAfterDollar

Looks pretty lifeless to me. It needs to tone up.

johnny9434

if you get you could keep it raw, no harm done there either way

HashTag

NLI

crazyhounddog

I believe the coin you’re showing has been dipped a long time ago. As others have mentioned it shows no evidence of it being harshly rubbed but I believe it has been cleaned as I don’t see much, if any, mint luster. Will it holder with a straight grade? I wouldn’t count on it.
Nice piece and I do like the date.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Eddi said:
Anyway, here she is. Still raw as the majority of my collection. Based on these pictures, would you consider the coin to be badly cleaned, or would you say the cleaning was done carefully and is still acceptable?

I also want to add that given the fact both PCGS and NGC have a European presence, I have been considering submitting my U.S collection for slabbing. I ask myself therefore if I should submit this one, and kindly request your opinions.

.
considering the twists and turn life takes, having coins like this encapsulated in inert protective holders, is never a bad thing, especially for the cost. that said, it is tough for us to know the extent of the cleaning your coin has from that one angle. PLS (cleaning lines) can be hidden in the best of images. having the coin imaged at different angles improves the odds of us seeing any problems from images and yours are pretty decent. toning sometimes can be hiding a multitude of problems so please don't let that be the litmus test for a coins current qualities.

the good thing is that the strategy of having a coin like this protected in a professional TPG holder circumnavigates whether it has been cleaned or not. doesn't appear to have any PVC which they would NOT put into one of their holders if it has any and they catch it.

i really only ever recommend people having coins valued in the hundreds of dollars or more raw is if they are a professional and/or have extensive experience safely storing them long-term. it is a simple matter of risk vs reward. i will only speak about pcgs holders and they seem stronger and safer than ever. cracked one recently and it had been a while since i had last done one and that sucker was much more difficult to break than i previously recalled, which is a good thing.

here is a neat example with a lot of "lines" but from what i would say is die polish which is acceptable, not coin polish. can be a bear sometimes to differentiate from images and occasionally, even in-hand and a coin can have both. the process of polishing dies can bring them back from lifelessness and other problems and coins can become PL (prooflike) from that process and will have extensive "lines." - important to know how to differentiate when buying "high grade" and/or "high dollar" coins. i'll stop here.

pcgs ms65 - click me

WCC

If it were my coin and I submitted it, almost guaranteed to receive a "details" grade.

It still might be worth submitting to have it in a holder for authentication though.

seanq

I don't mind it as a raw coin; I would hate it in a problem-free holder.

I agree with the people who suggested storing it in a paper envelope and let the surfaces continue to mellow with time.

Sean Reynolds

Hydrant

Looks dipped. No luster? Maybe polished long ago? Probably details grade piece. But......I like it.

fathom

Harsh.

BryceM

Still a nice coin, but "improperly cleaned". The halos around the devices and multiple areas of parallel hairlines give it away. There isn't all that much wear and even coins worn down to XF grades should have luster in some areas. This one is dull and lifeless everywhere. The right obverse field scratches aren't helping any either.

On a scale of 1-10 where 1 is a total disaster and 10 is a borderline case that might get a straight grade, I'd give this one a 3/10. The problems are not subtle.

Carry it for a few months or years and get it down to VF levels of wear and it might grade out OK.

Eddi

Than you, All, VERY much for the many thoughtful and interesting comments. As I mentioned before, I have collected US coins for many years, but have never given much attention to the issue of encapsulating, specifically what criteria the grading services apply on the issue of cleaning.
Much to learn for me, even after all this time. Thanks!

rec78

Worth a try. Really nice coin-I would have no problems owning it.

PerryHall

@Eddi said:
Than you, All, VERY much for the many thoughtful and interesting comments. As I mentioned before, I have collected US coins for many years, but have never given much attention to the issue of encapsulating, specifically what criteria the grading services apply on the issue of cleaning.
Much to learn for me, even after all this time. Thanks!

If you have no plans to get it slabbed anytime soon, suggest storing it in an old Kraft envelope to give it a little toning.

DoubleEagle59

Acceptable and quite gradeable.

BillJones

@HashTag said:
I never go against Bill Jones (he scares me though he seems very nice...but that wealth of knowledge!). Just this once I’d say submit it. Coins straight grade all the time that have been dipped. As others pointed out it’s those hairlines that will get you a genuine every time. Good luck.
AND let us know the outcome please!

“Dipped” is not the issue. I have no problem with many coins that have been dipped, unlike some of today’s “purist collectors.” Sometimes a Mint State coin that has been properly dipped is greatly improved if it was covered with ugly tarnish. All you do when you dip a coin, that can benefit from it, and not all can, is remove a tiny bit of oxidized metal, leaving the mint surface luster or Proof mirrors virtually intact.

Messing with a coin is a problem when you move the surface around and alter it so that it has polished or artificial luster. The common term for this is “whizzing.” The 1861 Proof dollar I posted earlier was a problem because it had a somewhat matte finish which was nothing like its original surfaces. The coin had the design sharpness of a Proof, which made it intriguing, but the Proof mirrors were gone.

BillJones

@DoubleEagle59 said:
Acceptable and quite gradeable.

The reverse maybe, but the obverse is the problem. Still it’s worth a shot. I’ve seen worse coins get a grade, and one instance, even a CAC sticker.

HashTag

yolo

Rollerman

If the obverse looked like the reverse I think it might straight grade, but as it is, I doubt it.

Walkerfan

I have seen a lot of Seated liberty Dollars that are dipped AND have hairlines, especially in higher circ. and lower MS grades.

It is worth a shot.

skier07

@PerryHall said:

@Eddi said:
Than you, All, VERY much for the many thoughtful and interesting comments. As I mentioned before, I have collected US coins for many years, but have never given much attention to the issue of encapsulating, specifically what criteria the grading services apply on the issue of cleaning.
Much to learn for me, even after all this time. Thanks!

If you have no plans to get it slabbed anytime soon, suggest storing it in an old Kraft envelope to give it a little toning.

Very good idea but check it periodically to avoid over-toning.

Whether to submit or not do as you please with the expectation that it probably won’t straight grade but we’re only talking about a $50 fee.

skier07

I lost/forgot about this coin for 25 years and found it in a notebook.

cameonut2011

Badly cleaned. This is the type of coin that coin doctors originally developed artificial toning for.

Walkerfan

@skier07 She looks like she spent some time in a nuclear reactor.