@dcarr said:
I recently "won" on eBay this 1902-O privately-made VAM-67 (with impossible C3 reverse of 1900): https://ebay.com/itm/373270626074
But immediately after I paid the seller wrote that they could not find it and were cancelling the sale.
I replied with: "You sure gave up looking for it awfully quick. So I guess you sold it out from underneath me to someone else". They didn't reply to that. Oh well, there are always some deals that fall through (lately, more than usual for me).
ouch. ANY loss of one of the family in that condish is a tough loss.
Just for fun I posted these 5 images of a common variety half cent (1806 C-1, small "6", stemless reverse) in another forum and asked which if any are genuine and which counterfeit? Some of the images were cropped to remove the TPG holder prongs.
Some may put a different slant on "authentic counterfeit" ...
@burfle23 said:
Just for fun I posted these 5 images of a common variety half cent (1806 C-1, small "6", stemless reverse) in another forum and asked which if any are genuine and which counterfeit? Some of the images were cropped to remove the TPG holder prongs.
.
i've looked over them a few times in a folder on my desktop. easier to zoom in/out etc. and if i had to guess, i'd say 3 bad, 2 good but i've never really been good with 1/2 cents. SO many of them just look fake to me and that has never changed so i pretty much just steer clear of them altogether but i saw you post these and had to at least try.
just a wag. fake/real/fake/real/fake in that order.
I suspect the odd-number examples are all fake. (In fact, we can say conclusively that at least two of the three are fake, perhaps just not which two.) I'll say the even-number examples are real.
What do you think of this coin I found on eBay last week, it was listed as a "R-9 gaming token" but I have seen it listed elsewhere as a contemporary counterfeit. From the look of the coin it definitely circulated as a genuine cent.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
@Zoins Disturbing chance encounter at the flea this morning. Here's this vendor announcing counterfeits for sale, Morgans, Ccs, Trades, 3 for 12 bucks. I whipped out my hard drive magnet and they're all magnetic. I just took a pic and walked on. Caveat emptor for sure. Peace Roy
@Namvet69 said: @Zoins Disturbing chance encounter at the flea this morning. Here's this vendor announcing counterfeits for sale, Morgans, Ccs, Trades, 3 for 12 bucks. I whipped out my hard drive magnet and they're all magnetic. I just took a pic and walked on. Caveat emptor for sure. Peace Roy
can't tell from the image but if you see that person again, you may be kind enough to inform them that announcing they are counterfeits isn't enough, they need to conform to the HPA and that shipping/driving them across state lines will not be a very nice bonus. they look to be copying known dates/mm combos so they don't qualify as fantasy/token/overstrike etc.
I have mentioned the HPA, they don't care, surly cast of characters at this place, I can't imagine a life peddling a weekly circuit. I just wanted to contribute toward the enlightenment about fakes. Peace Roy
@burfle23 said:
Just for fun I posted these 5 images of a common variety half cent (1806 C-1, small "6", stemless reverse) in >another forum and asked which if any are genuine and which counterfeit? Some of the images were cropped to >remove the TPG holder prongs.
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
Does anyone know how many of these counterfeits were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
Does anyone know how many of these counterfeits were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS?
.
how many were authenticated or how many have survived?
PCGS issued a press release on 25 April 2005 (found this in PCGS Coin Facts web site) that said PCGS slabbed 26 1896-Micro O, 31 1900-Micro O, and 38 1902-Micro O Morgan silver dollars all of which are counterfeit. I was wondering how many survived the PCGS buy back and subsequent destruction. Needless to say, many were kept by collectors and all are now fairly rare and expensive.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits, but people like what they like.
@PerryHall said:
Does anyone know how many of these counterfeits were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS?
how many were authenticated or how many have survived?
PCGS issued a press release on 25 April 2005 (found this in PCGS Coin Facts web site) that said PCGS slabbed 26 1896-Micro O, 31 1900-Micro O, and 38 1902-Micro O Morgan silver dollars all of which are counterfeit. I was wondering how many survived the PCGS buy back and subsequent destruction. Needless to say, many were kept by collectors and all are now fairly rare and expensive.
Pretty low pops for these. I can see the demand if people really want these.
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits.
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits.
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
Yes. For as much as people don't like counterfeits, people like counterfeits.
It's either other people, or people are making exceptions.
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits.
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
Yes. For as much as people don't like counterfeits, people like counterfeits.
Yes, especially when they are authenticated and slabbed by PCGS. These micro-O coins have been assigned specific VAM numbers so I can see a collector who is putting together a VAM set in PCGS slabs wanting them. This is a case of "buy the slab and not the coin."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits.
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
Yes. For as much as people don't like counterfeits, people like counterfeits.
Yes, especially when they are authenticated and slabbed by PCGS. These micro-O coins have been assigned specific VAM numbers so I can see a collector who is putting together a VAM set in PCGS slabs wanting them. This is a case of "buy the slab and not the coin."
Imagine of people started cataloging and slabbing more counterfeits?
@seanq said:
I have recently picked up a few contemporary counterfeit silver Three Cent pieces and Shield nickels, they pop up unattributed on eBay occasionally. I find them fascinating, how crudely some were made yet they still managed to circulate to low grades, fooling who knows how many merchants.
Sean Reynolds
Those coins were so small that a substantial part of the population couldn’t see them well enough to note that they were counterfeits. All you needed was a crude star on one side and a “C” and “III” on the other.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
.
i can't come close to answering your question but i'm confident the answer is highly guarded. vamworld has a few posts about these and people did show some/all of the ones they possess and/or have seen over the years from time to time. i figured you were aiming at the survival rate so thanks for confirming.
@rec78 said:
Do micro-o Morgans qualify as real counterfeits?
Not sure. Why would they be contemporary but have more silver?
Morgan dollar die variety specialists are reportedly excited over a recently discovered counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar. The coin has die links to the fake Micro O Morgan dollars that specialists identified more than a decade ago and that remain popular with collectors despite their illegal origin.
... Excitement over a fake
...
Van Allen has assigned the new counterfeit 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar die as VAM-59.
...
While many collectors would shy away from counterfeit coins, it is likely that VAM specialists will seek out new examples of the VAM 59 coin. As the SSDC article notes, “This discovery expands the size of the Micro O counterfeit ‘family’ of die marriages further, and gives collectors another very interesting coin to look for.”
... The fake 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar and the Micro O dollar fakes appear to date to the early 20th century. Many are made of a higher fineness of silver than the genuine coins. The counterfeiters responsible for the various related coins appear to have been prolific, producing many die pairs — something today’s collectors appreciate.
Interesting article. Thanks! Why counterfeit a coin and make its' intrinsic value more than the real thing if there is no collector value at the time? I would like to know the highest grade PCGS graded one of these. Most likely VF or lower? Are there any micro-o fakes known to exist in Unc. grades?
If they have more silver, I would lean to assuming they are counterfeit counterfeits, but it seems collectors love these.
If you can find one in a PCGS holder, it is worth quite a bit now.
So counterfeit counterfeits can be very popular and pricey.
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits.
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
The general belief is that the Micro-o family of counterfeits were tumbled and/or artificially worn down to make them more easily passable.
I dispute that, however. There are some specimens known in relatively high grade, and those would be passable as genuine by all, except perhaps a very few experts at the time.
When new silver dollars were minted and shipped to banks, they tended to sit in bank vaults. This has led to the erroneous conclusion that people didn't want silver dollars. Of course they were wanted, since they were valid money. But a dollar was a lot of money at the time. So silver dollars were generally held in stasis by banks. But once a silver dollar got out into commerce (actual circulation), it would continue to circulate. That is way you see a lot of Morgan dollars today that are worn down (genuine and vintage counterfeit).
Because most of the vintage counterfeit Morgan Dollars show a lot of circulation, this indicates that they were spent into general circulation (which, of course, would have been the counterfeiter's plan for them). The vintage counterfeits didn't sit in bank vaults.
Comments
ouch. ANY loss of one of the family in that condish is a tough loss.
back to chummin.
Just for fun I posted these 5 images of a common variety half cent (1806 C-1, small "6", stemless reverse) in another forum and asked which if any are genuine and which counterfeit? Some of the images were cropped to remove the TPG holder prongs.
Some may put a different slant on "authentic counterfeit"
...
.
i've looked over them a few times in a folder on my desktop. easier to zoom in/out etc. and if i had to guess, i'd say 3 bad, 2 good but i've never really been good with 1/2 cents. SO many of them just look fake to me and that has never changed so i pretty much just steer clear of them altogether but i saw you post these and had to at least try.
just a wag. fake/real/fake/real/fake in that order.
I suspect the odd-number examples are all fake. (In fact, we can say conclusively that at least two of the three are fake, perhaps just not which two.) I'll say the even-number examples are real.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
What do you think of this coin I found on eBay last week, it was listed as a "R-9 gaming token" but I have seen it listed elsewhere as a contemporary counterfeit. From the look of the coin it definitely circulated as a genuine cent.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I think @tokenpro might have something to say about this one. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
@Zoins Disturbing chance encounter at the flea this morning. Here's this vendor announcing counterfeits for sale, Morgans, Ccs, Trades, 3 for 12 bucks. I whipped out my hard drive magnet and they're all magnetic. I just took a pic and walked on. Caveat emptor for sure. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
can't tell from the image but if you see that person again, you may be kind enough to inform them that announcing they are counterfeits isn't enough, they need to conform to the HPA and that shipping/driving them across state lines will not be a very nice bonus. they look to be copying known dates/mm combos so they don't qualify as fantasy/token/overstrike etc.
I have mentioned the HPA, they don't care, surly cast of characters at this place, I can't imagine a life peddling a weekly circuit. I just wanted to contribute toward the enlightenment about fakes. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
.
any update?
Does anyone know how many of these counterfeits were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
.
how many were authenticated or how many have survived?
PCGS issued a press release on 25 April 2005 (found this in PCGS Coin Facts web site) that said PCGS slabbed 26 1896-Micro O, 31 1900-Micro O, and 38 1902-Micro O Morgan silver dollars all of which are counterfeit. I was wondering how many survived the PCGS buy back and subsequent destruction. Needless to say, many were kept by collectors and all are now fairly rare and expensive.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This set was sold on Feb 9, 2021 for $1,875.00.
Strong prices for some low grade counterfeits, but people like what they like.
Pretty low pops for these. I can see the demand if people really want these.
This turned up on eBay this week...
Anyone interested in this counterfeit half?
I'm guessing that the fact that they were authenticated and slabbed by PCGS had a lot to do with the high price that they brought. I've seen raw ones sell for a lot less on eBay. As far as low grades, they were artificially worn down to hide their origin. They actually have a higher grade of silver and a higher silver content than real Morgan dollars. They were made in the early part of the last century when silver was a lot cheaper.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes. For as much as people don't like counterfeits, people like counterfeits.
It's either other people, or people are making exceptions.
Yes, especially when they are authenticated and slabbed by PCGS. These micro-O coins have been assigned specific VAM numbers so I can see a collector who is putting together a VAM set in PCGS slabs wanting them. This is a case of "buy the slab and not the coin."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Imagine of people started cataloging and slabbing more counterfeits?
Those coins were so small that a substantial part of the population couldn’t see them well enough to note that they were counterfeits. All you needed was a crude star on one side and a “C” and “III” on the other.
.
i can't come close to answering your question but i'm confident the answer is highly guarded. vamworld has a few posts about these and people did show some/all of the ones they possess and/or have seen over the years from time to time. i figured you were aiming at the survival rate so thanks for confirming.
The general belief is that the Micro-o family of counterfeits were tumbled and/or artificially worn down to make them more easily passable.
I dispute that, however. There are some specimens known in relatively high grade, and those would be passable as genuine by all, except perhaps a very few experts at the time.
When new silver dollars were minted and shipped to banks, they tended to sit in bank vaults. This has led to the erroneous conclusion that people didn't want silver dollars. Of course they were wanted, since they were valid money. But a dollar was a lot of money at the time. So silver dollars were generally held in stasis by banks. But once a silver dollar got out into commerce (actual circulation), it would continue to circulate. That is way you see a lot of Morgan dollars today that are worn down (genuine and vintage counterfeit).
Because most of the vintage counterfeit Morgan Dollars show a lot of circulation, this indicates that they were spent into general circulation (which, of course, would have been the counterfeiter's plan for them). The vintage counterfeits didn't sit in bank vaults.