@80sOPC said:
Why would anyone be focused on paying off a house when rates are this low? Low rates are why we are in such a bubble, there is no incentive to retire debt that costs less then inflation and is stacked against an asset growing at double digits YOY.
Yeah there is. Cash flow.
Everyone said no reason to pay off your condo. It took me 13.5 years but best financial decision I have made.
It’s mine and no mortgage payment. It allows you so much more flexibility.
Debt elimination is how you secure long term wealth.
Ben Franklin said it was against his principle to pay interest.
@80sOPC said:
Why would anyone be focused on paying off a house when rates are this low? Low rates are why we are in such a bubble, there is no incentive to retire debt that costs less then inflation and is stacked against an asset growing at double digits YOY.
Yeah there is. Cash flow.
Everyone said no reason to pay off your condo. It took me 13.5 years but best financial decision I have made.
It’s mine and no mortgage payment. It allows you so much more flexibility.
Debt elimination is how you secure long term wealth.
Ben Franklin said it was against his principle to pay interest.
80sOPC, your argument assumes that cards will continue to appreciate. Many people, myself included, believe we are in an asset bubble so selling into the bubble to pay down current debt can be a smart move (IMO). That assumes the asset (trading cards) will not continue appreciating.
The returns for cards the last 14 months don't follow any historic pattern and simply don't make sense. A Jordan PSA 9 went from $5,400 in April 2019 to $78,000 in February 2021. The majority of the cards I follow have gone up 10x at a minimum in less than a year and many have doubled in the last 6 weeks. This is not a properly functioning market regardless of what the card bulls will tell you. Obviously, investment money has entered the market in a massive way, it is just as quickly going to leave the market at some point. Many of the record sales and price spikes are driven by investors that will jettison these cards as soon as it makes sense to do so. Some cards will handle the removal of the investor money better than others, and some cards will even continue to appreciate but the idea that some here espouse that the trajectory of cards is only up and what we are seeing with prices makes sense is ludicrous. That said, nothing says that we won't see everything double or more again before the punch bowl is taken away.
Being debt free gives you many more options in life. Your 10 year example assumes no tribulations in life or work, no market downturns, only that the good times will continue to roll. Real life just doesn't work that way. I remember looking at some stats from investing in stocks in 2000 and what you would have in 2010, and the average investor basically lost money (no 7% annual return there). Too many people seem to think the stock market the last 10-12 years is normal and that investing always makes you money. Those people in 2016 that were telling me rental properties were the safest investment and a great place to put your money never imagined a global pandemic and a cessation on evictions. I have several friends that are deep, deep in the red because they overleveraged themselves on rental properties and haven't gotten rent in 10+ months and are unable to evict and find paying tenants. They all still need to make their rental property mortgage payments even when their tenants are paying nothing. Also, when those tenants walk away instead of paying back their rental debt there will be nothing they can do about it.
Suggesting all debt is bad and should be avoided at all costs, like all absolutes, is false.
When you can borrow money and pay it back at an interest rate lower than the cost of inflation while maintaining the tax benefits of that interest payment it makes fiscal sense to do so.
Don't believe me? Look at Apple. One of the most well-respected and fiscally strong companies in the world. They just raised $14 billion in debt.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Suggesting all debt is bad and should be avoided at all costs, like all absolutes, is false.
When you can borrow money and pay it back at an interest rate lower than the cost of inflation while maintaining the tax benefits of that interest payment it makes fiscal sense to do so.
Don't believe me? Look at Apple. One of the most well-respected and fiscally strong companies in the world. They just raised $14 billion in debt.
Do what you want, but one size does not fit all.
Comparing corporate debt where it is essentially an interest only payment twice a year and a mortgage which generally speaking has an amortization schedule are two entirely different things. I get your point and there are certainly positive things that can be done with debt but one must consider other factors than simply the spread they might earn.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we table the discussion about the pros and cons of low interest debt and get back to fighting about modern vs. vintage like adults?
@80sOPC said:
Why would anyone be focused on paying off a house when rates are this low? Low rates are why we are in such a bubble, there is no incentive to retire debt that costs less then inflation and is stacked against an asset growing at double digits YOY.
Yeah there is. Cash flow.
Everyone said no reason to pay off your condo. It took me 13.5 years but best financial decision I have made.
It’s mine and no mortgage payment. It allows you so much more flexibility.
Debt elimination is how you secure long term wealth.
Ben Franklin said it was against his principle to pay interest.
The hidden humor in that statement, though, is wonderful. Great wordplay on principle and interest by a very funny and intelligent guy.
Apparently a huge ladies man, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@Batpig said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we table the discussion about the pros and cons of low interest debt and get back to fighting about modern vs. vintage like adults?
AGREED
Lay down your financial swords!!! Here’s a Yankees card lineup to help reignite the modern v vintage feud! I’m a traitor to both sides!
Or
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
people buying what they want for what they want is what our hobby is based upon.
This.
At the end of the day (actually at the beginning and middle as well), I look at the cards I own and say to myself "Self, if the market decided right now that all of these are worthless, would you still enjoy owning them?" The answer is a resounding "Yes!" although my wife would freak out if I suddenly yelled that when I was sitting by myself (she's a bit jumpy).
Have fun in the hobby! If your family is able to sell for a profit when you are mostly dead, yay them!
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
people buying what they want for what they want is what our hobby is based upon.
This.
At the end of the day (actually at the beginning and middle as well), I look at the cards I own and say to myself "Self, if the market decided right now that all of these are worthless, would you still enjoy owning them?" The answer is a resounding "Yes!" although my wife would freak out if I suddenly yelled that when I was sitting by myself (she's a bit jumpy).
Have fun in the hobby! If your family is able to sell for a profit when you are mostly dead, yay them!
This is the correct answer, and the same exact thing was told to me 20+ years ago by a buddy of mine about collecting, collecting used to be about getting cards if your favorite player, team, boyhood idol... but it has since transformed into a huge money making business. Nothing wrong with that by any means, but if they all went to zero value wise what cards would you want? I am lucky I have a few nice cards in my collection that are worth a little bit, but the ones I enjoy are the ones I liked as a kid because they were either my favorite players (Bench, Aaron...) or I liked how they looked. I have a 1974 Killebrew and a Ralph Garr that are not worth much in PSA 8, but I liked the colors and images on the cards as a kid and still like them today. Not a bad reason to collect IMO.
Comments
Ben Franklin said it was against his principle to pay interest.
I agree.
80sOPC, your argument assumes that cards will continue to appreciate. Many people, myself included, believe we are in an asset bubble so selling into the bubble to pay down current debt can be a smart move (IMO). That assumes the asset (trading cards) will not continue appreciating.
The returns for cards the last 14 months don't follow any historic pattern and simply don't make sense. A Jordan PSA 9 went from $5,400 in April 2019 to $78,000 in February 2021. The majority of the cards I follow have gone up 10x at a minimum in less than a year and many have doubled in the last 6 weeks. This is not a properly functioning market regardless of what the card bulls will tell you. Obviously, investment money has entered the market in a massive way, it is just as quickly going to leave the market at some point. Many of the record sales and price spikes are driven by investors that will jettison these cards as soon as it makes sense to do so. Some cards will handle the removal of the investor money better than others, and some cards will even continue to appreciate but the idea that some here espouse that the trajectory of cards is only up and what we are seeing with prices makes sense is ludicrous. That said, nothing says that we won't see everything double or more again before the punch bowl is taken away.
Being debt free gives you many more options in life. Your 10 year example assumes no tribulations in life or work, no market downturns, only that the good times will continue to roll. Real life just doesn't work that way. I remember looking at some stats from investing in stocks in 2000 and what you would have in 2010, and the average investor basically lost money (no 7% annual return there). Too many people seem to think the stock market the last 10-12 years is normal and that investing always makes you money. Those people in 2016 that were telling me rental properties were the safest investment and a great place to put your money never imagined a global pandemic and a cessation on evictions. I have several friends that are deep, deep in the red because they overleveraged themselves on rental properties and haven't gotten rent in 10+ months and are unable to evict and find paying tenants. They all still need to make their rental property mortgage payments even when their tenants are paying nothing. Also, when those tenants walk away instead of paying back their rental debt there will be nothing they can do about it.
Robb
Suggesting all debt is bad and should be avoided at all costs, like all absolutes, is false.
When you can borrow money and pay it back at an interest rate lower than the cost of inflation while maintaining the tax benefits of that interest payment it makes fiscal sense to do so.
Don't believe me? Look at Apple. One of the most well-respected and fiscally strong companies in the world. They just raised $14 billion in debt.
Do what you want, but one size does not fit all.
Comparing corporate debt where it is essentially an interest only payment twice a year and a mortgage which generally speaking has an amortization schedule are two entirely different things. I get your point and there are certainly positive things that can be done with debt but one must consider other factors than simply the spread they might earn.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we table the discussion about the pros and cons of low interest debt and get back to fighting about modern vs. vintage like adults?
The hidden humor in that statement, though, is wonderful. Great wordplay on principle and interest by a very funny and intelligent guy.
Apparently a huge ladies man, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
AGREED
Lay down your financial swords!!! Here’s a Yankees card lineup to help reignite the modern v vintage feud! I’m a traitor to both sides!
Or
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
This.
At the end of the day (actually at the beginning and middle as well), I look at the cards I own and say to myself "Self, if the market decided right now that all of these are worthless, would you still enjoy owning them?" The answer is a resounding "Yes!" although my wife would freak out if I suddenly yelled that when I was sitting by myself (she's a bit jumpy).
Have fun in the hobby! If your family is able to sell for a profit when you are mostly dead, yay them!
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
This is the correct answer, and the same exact thing was told to me 20+ years ago by a buddy of mine about collecting, collecting used to be about getting cards if your favorite player, team, boyhood idol... but it has since transformed into a huge money making business. Nothing wrong with that by any means, but if they all went to zero value wise what cards would you want? I am lucky I have a few nice cards in my collection that are worth a little bit, but the ones I enjoy are the ones I liked as a kid because they were either my favorite players (Bench, Aaron...) or I liked how they looked. I have a 1974 Killebrew and a Ralph Garr that are not worth much in PSA 8, but I liked the colors and images on the cards as a kid and still like them today. Not a bad reason to collect IMO.