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Two For Tuesday

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  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021 5:05AM

    1 Penny IoM 1984, both from sets, silver and base metal proof sets

    Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter

  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021 5:06AM

    1 Scudo and 2 Scudi The Sovereign Military Order of Malta 1984, silver, rare, mintage 2000 both, portrait engraved by Celestino Giampaoli, brother of Pietro Giampaoli ( both great italian engravers and medalists):

    Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter

  • StellaStella Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭

    Cool story there, @cecropiamoth !

    Lots of cool duos here.

    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the last two were too large I have these for small change.


    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • StellaStella Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭

    Cool Atochas, @BustDMs !

    It is Tuesday again, so here is a pair of patterns: one French and one US.

    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cecropiamoth said:
    One day late for Two for Tuesday. :#

    During the summer of 1949 the United States mints restruck two silver crowns with the intent they would be used in China.

    The first was a restrike of the Republic of China Year 23 (1934) Sun Yat-Sen dollar. This coin is commonly referred to as a 'junk dollar' which is a reference to the Chinese two-masted sailing boat depicted on the reverse. The United States mints combined to strike 30,000,000 pieces (Philadelphia 20,250,000, Denver 6,550,000 and San Francisco 3,200,000). This coin is a somewhat controversial inclusion in the World Coins Manufactured at US Mints full and type sets. In 1934, China (at Shanghai) produced 98,740,000 coins. As the US produced coins using copies of the 1934 master dies, there is no way to tell the difference between the original 1934 coins and the 1949 restrikes. US mintmarks were also not used, so it is impossible to tell which mint produced any single coin. These dollars are .880 fine silver.


    PCGS MS64, pop 8,694/2,042 (!!!)

    The second coin restruck was the 1898-Mo AM cap & rays peso. Restrikes can be distinguished from the originals in two ways. The first is by a count of the reverse denticles. Originals will have 137-139 denticles while the restrikes will have 131. The second and easier way to identify the restrikes is by the position of the 'o' in the Mexico City (Mo) mintmark. On the originals, the top of the 'o' lines up with the top of the 'M'. On the restrikes, the top of the 'o' rises significantly higher than the top of the 'M'. Despite this, the coin is also a controversial inclusion in the World Coins Manufactured at US Mints full and type sets. A total of 10,250,000 restrikes were produced, 8,250,000 at the Mexico City mint with the remainder of 2,000,000 produced at San Francisco. The dies used to strike the pesos in San Francisco came from Mexico City and as a result there is no way to differentiate between a Mexico City restrike and a San Francisco restrike. Finally it is believed the San Francisco production never made it to China and all 2,000,000 coins were melted. These pesos are .9027 fine silver.


    PCGS MS65, pop 48/14

    Jeff

    I did not know that about the 1934 junk dollars being struck in the US 🤗

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cecropiamoth said:
    One day late for Two for Tuesday. :#

    During the summer of 1949 the United States mints restruck two silver crowns with the intent they would be used in China.

    The first was a restrike of the Republic of China Year 23 (1934) Sun Yat-Sen dollar. This coin is commonly referred to as a 'junk dollar' which is a reference to the Chinese two-masted sailing boat depicted on the reverse. The United States mints combined to strike 30,000,000 pieces (Philadelphia 20,250,000, Denver 6,550,000 and San Francisco 3,200,000). This coin is a somewhat controversial inclusion in the World Coins Manufactured at US Mints full and type sets. In 1934, China (at Shanghai) produced 98,740,000 coins. As the US produced coins using copies of the 1934 master dies, there is no way to tell the difference between the original 1934 coins and the 1949 restrikes. US mintmarks were also not used, so it is impossible to tell which mint produced any single coin. These dollars are .880 fine silver.


    PCGS MS64, pop 8,694/2,042 (!!!)

    The second coin restruck was the 1898-Mo AM cap & rays peso. Restrikes can be distinguished from the originals in two ways. The first is by a count of the reverse denticles. Originals will have 137-139 denticles while the restrikes will have 131. The second and easier way to identify the restrikes is by the position of the 'o' in the Mexico City (Mo) mintmark. On the originals, the top of the 'o' lines up with the top of the 'M'. On the restrikes, the top of the 'o' rises significantly higher than the top of the 'M'. Despite this, the coin is also a controversial inclusion in the World Coins Manufactured at US Mints full and type sets. A total of 10,250,000 restrikes were produced, 8,250,000 at the Mexico City mint with the remainder of 2,000,000 produced at San Francisco. The dies used to strike the pesos in San Francisco came from Mexico City and as a result there is no way to differentiate between a Mexico City restrike and a San Francisco restrike. Finally it is believed the San Francisco production never made it to China and all 2,000,000 coins were melted. These pesos are .9027 fine silver.


    PCGS MS65, pop 48/14

    Jeff

    @cecropiamoth couldn't one do an elemental analysis of the silver to determine the trace elements? I thought metal could always be traced to its origin via trace elements. Certainly silver used to strike the coins in the US was not imported. Though one wonders where the silver China used to strike the coins came from. Mexico perhaps? Still, they ought to be distinguishable via this means.

  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas

    Your question from a couple posts above --

    couldn't one do an elemental analysis of the silver to determine the trace elements? I thought metal could always be traced to its origin via trace elements. Certainly silver used to strike the coins in the US was not imported. Though one wonders where the silver China used to strike the coins came from. Mexico perhaps? Still, they ought to be distinguishable via this means.

    Thought provoking question!!

    The first question that entered my mind was, is it possible that China somehow acquired silver from the UK (via India) which could have been likely silver of US mined origin (Pittman Act melting of Morgan Dollars). But then another thought...most of the Morgan Dollars (I believe) were minted using Comstock Lode silver. By 1949 when the US restruck the Junk Dollars there was no longer any silver coming out of the Comstock Lode.

    So, do we definitely know the origin of US mined silver that was used for coin production around 1949? Perhaps a large sample size of Roosies, Washington quarters and Franklin halves could be analyzed for trace elements in the silver. Then, if we knew with certainty that this same source of US mined silver was used to produce the Junk Dollars we would have a good starting point. Finally, if a large enough sample of (1934) dated Junk Dollars could be analyzed, we might be able to determine which ones were produced in China in 1934 and which ones were US restrikes for 1949.

    I'm attempting some critical thinking here, but I'm kind of rambling at this point!! :D:#:o But, out of curiosity did my attempt for analysis make any sense or was it rubbish?

    I think the major point is that visually there is no way to distinguish the (1934) originals from the 1949 restrikes. This is not the case with the originals vs restrikes of the 1898-Mo AM pesos.

    @mvs7 Any thoughts?

    Jeff

  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are a pair of Central America silver crowns manufactured at United States mints.

    The 1914-C.A.M. El Salvador Peso (PCGS MS64) was struck at the Philadelphia Mint. Three other dates of this type (KM- 115.2) were produced in the United States -- 1904-C.A.M. (San Francisco), 1909-C.A.M. (San Francisco) and 1911-C.A.M. (Philadelphia & San Francisco). The 1914-C.A.M. (P) is far and away the easiest of the four dates to find in mint state for type purposes.

    The 1934 Panama Balboa (PCGS MS65) was struck at the San Francisco Mint. Two other dates of this type (KM- 13) were produced in the United States -- 1931 (Philadelphia) and 1947 (Philadelphia). Both the 1934 and 1947 dated coins are readily available in high grade...the 1934 has 68 coins in the PCGS pop report for grades of 64-66; the 1947 has even more, 128 coins graded between 64-66+. 1931 is far more challenging -- 65 is the current top pop and there are only six coins graded 64-65 with only an additional four coins graded 63.

    Jeff

  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭✭


    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • mvs7mvs7 Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cecropiamoth said:
    @pruebas

    Your question from a couple posts above --

    couldn't one do an elemental analysis of the silver to determine the trace elements? I thought metal could always be traced to its origin via trace elements. Certainly silver used to strike the coins in the US was not imported. Though one wonders where the silver China used to strike the coins came from. Mexico perhaps? Still, they ought to be distinguishable via this means.

    Thought provoking question!!

    The first question that entered my mind was, is it possible that China somehow acquired silver from the UK (via India) which could have been likely silver of US mined origin (Pittman Act melting of Morgan Dollars). But then another thought...most of the Morgan Dollars (I believe) were minted using Comstock Lode silver. By 1949 when the US restruck the Junk Dollars there was no longer any silver coming out of the Comstock Lode.

    So, do we definitely know the origin of US mined silver that was used for coin production around 1949? Perhaps a large sample size of Roosies, Washington quarters and Franklin halves could be analyzed for trace elements in the silver. Then, if we knew with certainty that this same source of US mined silver was used to produce the Junk Dollars we would have a good starting point. Finally, if a large enough sample of (1934) dated Junk Dollars could be analyzed, we might be able to determine which ones were produced in China in 1934 and which ones were US restrikes for 1949.

    I'm attempting some critical thinking here, but I'm kind of rambling at this point!! :D:#:o But, out of curiosity did my attempt for analysis make any sense or was it rubbish?

    I think the major point is that visually there is no way to distinguish the (1934) originals from the 1949 restrikes. This is not the case with the originals vs restrikes of the 1898-Mo AM pesos.

    @mvs7 Any thoughts?

    Jeff

    I think you probably could do an analysis of the silver in a group of 1934 Junk dollars and divide them into groups based on the metalurgic results. Whether the results themselves are enough to say where they were minted or whether you would need a control group from a known source, I'm not well versed enough to know. Should be possible somehow, however.

    I guess the point is that there is no physical way to tell them apart, like you can with the denticles or mint mark from the 1898 Mexico peso restrike. There's another coin the the set (World Coins Manufactured by Mints of the US) that's similar, the 1944-dated Ethiopia 50 centimes, which was coined at the Philadelphia Mint over several years (all dated 1944), some in 80% silver (1944-45) and some in 70% silver (1947). There is no physical marker to tell the different alloys apart, but you could figure it out if you had the inclination to do a specific gravity test. This one below is MS64 and is either 80% or 70% silver, no idea which... the specific gravity test wouldn't be much fun once already slabbed. I was kinda hoping PCGS would figure that out for me when they graded it... nope. :D

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think if one was sufficiently motivated, one could discern US-made Junk Dollars from Shanghai-made pieces. You probably couldn't tell Philadelphia-made from Denver-made though.

    The US was most likely using domestic silver from Idaho or possibly Montana and China was probably using Mexican silver. If the purity was 0.999, it might be hard to differentiate, but at 0.880, it should be possible given sensitive enough instruments. Each of these mines had a specific trace mineral signature. Not to mention alloying practices were probably different as well.

    It also might be possible to differentiate microscopically due to strike differences due to differing equipment and operations. It's doubtful that the US and China were using the same presses, edging dies, striking pressures, roller presses, etc.

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The cyanide process was invented in 1887 so I would not expect any 1934 silver coins to show much in the way of traceable impurities.

  • rwyarmchrwyarmch Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭✭

    The bareknuckle boxing match between champion Tom Johnson and challenger Isaac Perrins (who was employed as a foreman with Boulton & Watt) was held in 1789. The fight was a brutal affair lasting 62 rounds with Johnson prevailing. A pair of medals were struck commemorating the event (listed as Warwickshire 12 and 13 in the Conder token series.)

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rwyarmch said:
    The bareknuckle boxing match between champion Tom Johnson and challenger Isaac Perrins (who was employed as a foreman with Boulton & Watt) was held in 1789. The fight was a brutal affair lasting 62 rounds with Johnson prevailing. A pair of medals were struck commemorating the event (listed as Warwickshire 12 and 13 in the Conder token series.)

    Truly historic !

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • StellaStella Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭

    It is Tuesday again!

    Here are two moderns that I find charming. British Virgin Islands $1s with Flamingos.

    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021 5:24PM

    It's almost Tuesday here, and already Tuesday where these two coins originated, so ...

    (Ex Oldknow)

    (Ex Lessen)

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another pair for one's enjoyment:

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021 6:33PM

    (Half) Siblings (sons of Cnut):

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First Crown-sized pieces from the reign of Charles I:

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hard times for Charles I (civil war!):

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • AuldFartteAuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭

    @EVillageProwler - I really love your medievals and Vikings! They are all incredible. I've never seen Elizabeths with portraits as good as yours.

    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • AuldFartteAuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭

    A couple of Victoria Sixpences.



    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AuldFartte said:
    @EVillageProwler - I really love your medievals and Vikings! They are all incredible. I've never seen Elizabeths with portraits as good as yours.

    Thanks but what Elizabeths?

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • AuldFartteAuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭

    @EVillageProwler said:

    @AuldFartte said:
    @EVillageProwler - I really love your medievals and Vikings! They are all incredible. I've never seen Elizabeths with portraits as good as yours.

    Thanks but what Elizabeths?

    March 16th post on this thread with Elizabeth Sixpence & Shilling.

    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AuldFartte said:

    @EVillageProwler said:

    @AuldFartte said:
    @EVillageProwler - I really love your medievals and Vikings! They are all incredible. I've never seen Elizabeths with portraits as good as yours.

    Thanks but what Elizabeths?

    March 16th post on this thread with Elizabeth Sixpence & Shilling.

    Those Elizabeths aren’t mine.

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • AuldFartteAuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭

    @EVillageProwler said:

    @AuldFartte said:

    @EVillageProwler said:

    @AuldFartte said:
    @EVillageProwler - I really love your medievals and Vikings! They are all incredible. I've never seen Elizabeths with portraits as good as yours.

    Thanks but what Elizabeths?

    March 16th post on this thread with Elizabeth Sixpence & Shilling.

    Those Elizabeths aren’t mine.

    Ah. Sorry, sir.

    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021 10:41AM

    These are the two types of Mexico 1898 pesos struck at the Mexico City mint:

    image
    Mexico Peso 1898-Mo Original
    This coin has some die cracks

    image
    Mexico Peso 1898-Mo Restrike of 1949

    These coins should really be in a separate topic.

    :)

    https://www.brianrxm.com
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  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's a neat pair of 1808 Mexico 8 Reales:


  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stork,

    I like the eye appeal of the 66 more, but I’d probably also like the 68 too (but in a different way).

    Nice!

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice Burma Stella !

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • StellaStella Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2021 3:35PM

    Thank you, @bidask ! This is one of several nice purchases over the years from @CoinRaritiesOnline .

    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
  • StellaStella Posts: 689 ✭✭✭✭

    It's Tuesday again!

    Here are two rabbits, one old and one (relatively) new:



    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
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