What makes a variety into a known variety, exactly?

Kurisu

I understand the concept...a die or die pairing which created unique distinctive feature(s).
I understand the process...attribution, like via James at Variety Vista.
I understand it could be from something like a die gouge...like many VAMs for Morgans.

But what is it that, for example, would make James want to list it as a variety???
Exactly what....
Because a few people have submitted it for attribution?
Eye appeal?
Longevity of the feature? Like did it presumably strike a lot of coins (perhaps as the gouge changed shape or got worse/worn) before the die was replaced?

Smudge

Collector interest?

JRocco

You need to find a few coins (like you have) with a characteristic like a die gouge, die crack or
similar trait. Then you have to think of a catchy name for it. Then you have to schmooze someone
at a major TPG to label your find. That is the hard part. But it has been done before.
As a side not.....
Oh please God don't let her return.

ricko

Probably once submitted for evaluation and confirmed as a mint originated issue, it will get listed. Cheers, RickO

1630Boston

Great question @Kurisu

I found this interesting

In United States numismatics, a variety may be defined as a die or die pairing that offers some distinctive feature not a normal part of the design. For early U. S. coins, those made before the introduction of the reducing lathe in 1836, every die required extensive hand punching of letters, numerals and other small features. Therefore, each and every die was distinctive, and each die pairing constitutes a variety. Thus, all coins from this period are of some identifiable variety

oih82w8

I would imagine that if it is accepted and verified by a Subject Matter Expert on the series.

Kurisu

Sorry I had issues editing the post, and getting back online yesterday...Thanks for the replies!!!

Here are the dimes I found yesterday which set me wondering about this...

"Beauty Mark Roosevelt" @JRocco

I was searching Loomis rolls of new 2020-D dimes.
Came across the first one...The raised 'beauty mark' really stands out to the naked eye at a distance so I spotted it immediately and set it aside to check out afterwards.
Later in the same roll I found another one.
About 3 rolls later I found yet another one.

I still have about 5 rolls to go...side note: these came from a Chase bank that's barely 6 miles away from the Denver Mint.

Notice that there is an easy to spot 'marker' just below the initials on all 3 as well...that little vertical mark.

coinbuf

The right pump and dump promotion.

291fifth

Promotion by the "right" person.

oih82w8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-H-cWXr-n5I

"Here’s a quarter. Go downtown and have a rat gnaw that thing off your face."

messydesk

@Kurisu said:
I understand the concept...a die or die pairing which created unique distinctive feature(s).
I understand the process...attribution, like via James at Variety Vista.
I understand it could be from something like a die gouge...like many VAMs for Morgans.

But what is it that, for example, would make James want to list it as a variety???
Exactly what....
Because a few people have submitted it for attribution?

It only takes one person to submit something. It has to be of sufficient interest within the context of the coin. James Wiles will list doubled dies and RPMs that are different from others and that he can photograph sufficiently well to show someone what the variety is. He is not interested in die breaks and gouges except for as die markers on DDs and RPMs. Leroy Van Allen will also list die breaks and gouges that are big enough (not simple cracks and scratches), or things that were deliberately done to the dies as VAMs, because that's what some collectors are looking at.

Eye appeal?
Longevity of the feature? Like did it presumably strike a lot of coins (perhaps as the gouge changed shape or got worse/worn) before the die was replaced?

Eye appeal (by which you mean how cool is the feature?) doesn't really come into play. The majority of VAMs are uninteresting. There are 100 DDR Nebraska Homestead quarters on VarietyVista, with only a few being interesting. Number of coins struck doesn't come into play, either, as this is always a guess at first.

ctf_error_coins

Great eye appeal and promotion, promotion, and promotion ....

BillJones

In the old days, it used to be getting listed in "The Red Book."

yspsales

In my haste, surely a few I have left off the list. It has to have the WOW factor...

Example... there are 6000 slabbed AH Kennedy half dollars, another 1200 Cameo, but only 120 or so DCAM. So there is the condition sensitive aspect.

Three legged Buffs are popular and just cool.

Mostly, it has to be a bangin' DDO to approach legend status.

16/16, 18/7, and the 1955 Lincoln come to mind.

I spoke of my first coin purchase on another thread. Safe to say the 1995ddo was not to be the next 1955 or even 1972 DDO

Kurisu

@messydesk said:
It only takes one person to submit something. It has to be of sufficient interest within the context of the coin. James Wiles will list doubled dies and RPMs that are different from others and that he can photograph sufficiently well to show someone what the variety is. He is not interested in die breaks and gouges except for as die markers on DDs and RPMs. Leroy Van Allen will also list die breaks and gouges that are big enough (not simple cracks and scratches), or things that were deliberately done to the dies as VAMs, because that's what some collectors are looking at.

Excellent detailed info...thank you!
Where's Leroy? I know he's involved with Coin World but does he do attributions somewhere?
Coneca? I looked around a little bit, but I only have so much time to do research...on absolutely everything!

coinkat

Great question without a great answer.

Treashunt

I think that for a variety to become popular, several things should be considered:

1) Popularity of the series: eg: for say Jefferson nickels or Roosevelt dimes: the series is generally collected by newbies, and as such, varieties, new collectors may not be interested in something that needs a 10X glass to find. Especially on coins with many millions, to hundreds of millions of pieces minted.
2) The variety should be somewhat easily identifiable;
3) Varieties that are found in 'old time' series are generally more likely to become popular collectibles; eg: the 1919 Merc DDO;
4) Acceptance by the 'experts' in the series;

Some time ago I found what I believed was a new variety the 1909 S, inverted MM.
At first it was not accepted, then by being published in Coin World's 'Collector's Clearinghouse' it was accepted.
Then, the addition of it in Cherrypickers' Guide it became accepted and was searched for. The other thing was that anyone could find it, if they simply searched the dealers' inventories.

Kurisu

So...if one of you variety lovers (not that there are a ton of modern dime varieties!) were to send in these dimes... Variety Vista? Coneca? Which makes more sense?
I think it might be worth $30 and shipping just as something interesting I've never done before!
...Going through the other five new dime rolls today!

messydesk

@Kurisu said:

@messydesk said:
It only takes one person to submit something. It has to be of sufficient interest within the context of the coin. James Wiles will list doubled dies and RPMs that are different from others and that he can photograph sufficiently well to show someone what the variety is. He is not interested in die breaks and gouges except for as die markers on DDs and RPMs. Leroy Van Allen will also list die breaks and gouges that are big enough (not simple cracks and scratches), or things that were deliberately done to the dies as VAMs, because that's what some collectors are looking at.

Excellent detailed info...thank you!
Where's Leroy? I know he's involved with Coin World but does he do attributions somewhere?

He's in Sidney, OH. He only does attributions for Morgan and Peace dollar VAMs, primarily for the purpose of keeping the VAM catalog updated.

Coneca? I looked around a little bit, but I only have so much time to do research...on absolutely everything!

https://conecaonline.org/attribution-services/

Says here that attributions and new listings are being migrated from James Wiles and VarietyVista to CONECA's website. I'm not sure if this is operational yet or not. I think I submitted a request for a forum account there some time ago and never received an activation message.

YQQ

The first step to solve the OP's question is to separate a possible real mint error from, PMD, and a possible forgery. Then we can eventually consider a Variety!
I.e., make sure it is an error and NOT PMD. and, also not a forgery.
then we see again, provided there are more than a few of the subjects in question.
it will take time, as it needs to be proven that the other pieces discovered are consistent with the subject coin.
Example:
about 10 years ago or so a fellow discovered in a 1932 Canada Nickel that the 2 was either at a near or far distance to a leaf. It was not easy to detect UNLESS you knew it!
and it took a sharp eye to recognize it.
So he posted his findings at a Canadian Coin Forum. there were all sorts of good arguments back and forth.
He won, as the facts eventually and clearly proved him right. His insistence took over a year.
Today it is a recognized and sought after VARIETY and is valued at about 100 times the value of the simple 1932 nickel.
Does it have to do with popularity?? No, it has to do with how scarce it is and, how collectors react.
There are numerous other true examples.
"Varieties" (and errors) are also purposely created by mints, even though they do not admit it. It is called creating collectors buzz and interest in the crap the mints turn out by the billions.

Kurisu

@YQQ said:
The first step to solve the OP's question is to separate a possible real mint error from, PMD, and a possible forgery.
"Varieties" (and errors) are also purposely created by mints, even though they do not admit it. It is called creating collectors buzz and interest in the crap the mints turn out by the billions.

I appreciate the response but PMD and counterfeit is not at all in question.
I have 40+ years of collecting knowledge and many of the people in this forum are far more knowledgeable and experienced than I am.
There are very few varieties that are questioned as being done on purpose by mint employees, a couple of the more famous mules are an example of that.
Collectability is certainly a factor though, as is (naked) eye appeal.