Long Beach Is it happening?
Tibor
Posts: 3,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
On the CT forum I read about the NGC/Paramount collection to be auctioned
off at the Long Beach show by Heritage. Is the Long Beach show still happening?
The dates were in February.
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Here is the other side of the argument :
Europe's Top Health Officials Say Masks Aren't Helpful in Beating COVID-19
Denmark boasts one of the lowest COVID-19 death rates in the world. As of August 4, the Danes have suffered 616 COVID-19 deaths, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University.
That’s less than one-third of the number of Danes who die from pneumonia or influenza in a given year.
Despite this success, Danish leaders recently found themselves on the defensive. The reason is that Danes aren’t wearing face masks, and local authorities for the most part aren’t even recommending them.
This prompted Berlingske, the country’s oldest newspaper, to complain that Danes had positioned themselves “to the right of Trump.”
“The whole world is wearing face masks, even Donald Trump,” Berlingske pointed out.
This apparently did not sit well with Danish health officials. They responded by noting there is little conclusive evidence that face masks are an effective way to limit the spread of respiratory viruses.
“All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News.
Denmark is not alone.
Despite a global stampede of mask-wearing, data show that 80-90 percent of people in Finland and Holland say they “never” wear masks when they go out, a sharp contrast to the 80-90 percent of people in Spain and Italy who say they “always” wear masks when they go out.
Dutch public health officials recently explained why they’re not recommending masks.
"From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.
Others, echoing statements similar to the US Surgeon General from early March, said masks could make individuals sicker and exacerbate the spread of the virus.
“Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. “There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.”
I wear a mask, but I'm not getting the vaccine because while I'm 61, I'm very fit and have no underlying health conditions.
Look into the benefits of Vitamin D and Ivermectin.
If I was Dr. Fauci, I'd be telling the American public to look at this as a wake up call to get fit and lose some weight and I realize this is easier said than done, especially for the lower class, but there are major steps even the poorer people can do to eat healthier.
But to keep it coin related........
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
If you’re wrong, there’s far more downside in failing to wear masks than there is if others are wrong and wear them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Beats outdoor dining in NY...where it was 20 degrees and snowing! With gusty winds no less.
Actually, if you look at pre-Covid studies, there wasn't a clear correlation. There is even at least one study which showed an increase in bacterial infections due to breeding on the most masks.
There are numerous studies which showed issues with masking.
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577?fbclid=IwAR1eSycUvJj_dy8CeGpVOkLzT53HJhr7HWv2VYj9bVXxdVedx167Y8te2Y0
Most studies show some effectiveness, but the numbers are all over the place. This is NOT an argument against masks, but social distancing is actually more effective and the pre-Covid data is mixed on masks that were not N95s or similar.
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Latin American Collection
Man, can we get back to talking about hair? I was having fun until......
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
As an MD who has had both Pfizer vaccines, I’m still wearing a mask, most of the time, at least in public. Theoretically, there’s really not much reason, other than to “set a good example.” It’s required at work.
My personal opinion is that the benefit of mask wearing is probably limited. I’m not a far-right nut job. I just think the recommendation to do so is 3 parts political (gotta look like we’re doing something) and 1 part science. Apart from that, there seems to be no endpoint in view...... and the negative consequences of all the stuff we’re doing are PROFOUND.
Remember, when this all started, the goal wasn’t necessarily to protect me or you - it was to slow the timeline to avoid overwhelming the hospitals. It was a foregone conclusion that most everyone would eventually get it. The vaccine is a potential game-changer, and hopefully we’ll get ahead of it before it mutates enough to sneak around it. Returning to normal??? What politician is going to be the first to walk out on that limb?
None of what I’ve said should be construed as being heartless or ignorant to the death and suffering so many have experienced. It’s real and it’s pretty nasty for some folks. I just see it in the perspective of one more disease among hundreds of others that we deal with (and accept) all the time. Like I’ve said before, if you want to be terrified look carefully at obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.
To keep this coin-related, I don’t predict any big coin shows in 2021, and maybe not in 2022 either. Everyone is just too scared.
I think this is well reasoned and argued. It is the "middle-of-the-road" view that one "dare not speak" in the current climate.
I will add that, beyond mutation, it is really unknown what the duration of immunity is for any of the vaccines. Prior experience with coronaviruses would suggest it might be limited. That means there might well be a need for constant immunization...if you want a glimpse at the next political football.
If I may risk one more thing: a lot is made of the US death rate as an indicator of..er...political incompetence. I think, as you somewhat imply, it speaks more to the risk factors in the population than anything else. That might be the real public policy failure.
Finally a voice of reason and logic not driven by fear and politics, too many voices in this thread are acting like long tailed cats in a room of rocking chairs.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There is no middle ground between science and conspiracy theories.
Some say 2+2=4
Some may theorize 2+2=6
The correct answer is 4 and the conspiracy nuts are wrong and have no proof to support what they spew.
Reaching for the middle ground of the number 5 is not only wrong but dangerous.
@stockdude said
"From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.
Here is the thing Mark. That's BS about "Holland". We have offices in the Netherlands. Our people have been working remotely. The country is generally locked down at the moment. The country requires masks in almost all public places.
Contrary to what was espoused above Holland does have a mask policy and it's punishable by fine.
Face mask requirement in " Holland"
Everyone aged 13 or over is required to wear a face mask for general use in the following situations:
In buildings and covered spaces that are accessible to the public (in so far as these are open). This includes:
shops, town halls, airports, covered car parks and petrol stations;
schools, while people are walking or standing. They can take off their face mask as soon as they have taken their seat.
Both customers and staff should wear a face mask in locations where contact-based professions are carried out.
On public transport, in stations, on platforms and at bus and tram stops.
In all these places wearing a face mask is required by law. If you do not wear a face mask, you risk being fined €95.
Please note: until at least 9 February many venues are closed.
Plus some of the stuff he cited was from early March in the first days of the pandemic when were we being told this is nothing more then the flu. My PillowGuy would be proud.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Mark, I don’t doubt any of that. My post was directed at anyone who, for whatever reason, believes (not knows) that masks don’t make a difference.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Can you site a scientific study that proves masks work? We are one year into this and I have yet to see an actual study that shows any difference in transmissions rates. So for you true believers please enlighten us with true science.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Oh I realize that. I guess I should have just quoted him directly. Most of what he posted and cobbled together is from March through August of 2020 and is certainly outdated.
One could just go to the Netherlands National website and pull their current policies and travel restrictions themselves. They are more restrictive then ours.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Frankly, I have no desire to make the effort, as I don’t think it would make any difference to those who don’t believe. I trust the highly qualified medical professionals who advise it. And along the lines of what I posted previously, if you’re wrong, there’s far more downside than there is if they are.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As expected, there is no such science so you have no choice but to base your choice on faith and politics, I'll leave it at that.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I’ve read, listened and made my choice, including following local guidelines and ordinances. And it has zero to do with politics - something I almost always avoid.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are more out there but a good place to start if you want a summary. (From October so there are more recent supportive studies.)
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
I will ask again: what is the downside? How does wearing a mask harm someone? Even if the benefit is small it outweighs the risk.
My current "Box of 20"
Dating myself: Cowsills "Hair: 1969
Kennedys are my quest...
Thats very well said and i agree with it. My original post may not have been as eloquent but i just suggested people be skeptical and things are not always as simple as you might think. I kind of knew the mask issue would rear its ugly head when i saw a post about a coin show being canceled. I should learn to skip those posts. Oh well
Well, this thread is destined for closure no doubt. Let me clarify. We need to change the transmission rate of COVID from above 1.0 to less than 1.0. How do we do that?
Without any action, this eventually happens when enough people acquire natural immunity. Hand washing, social distancing, decontamination, and mask wearing all contribute some, but none of these are cure-alls. As has been said, for most people (not all) there isn’t much downside, other than the annoyance of wearing a mask. Washing your hands is getting less attention than it deserves. I remain dubious of any benefit to be had from requiring those previously infected or those immunized to wear a mask.
One thing that we can all agree on is that we look forward to the time that big shows can safely resume.
An interesting article, however it provides no actual science just the known assumptions and suppositions. In fact it actually says several times that little is known and that there have not been enough studies to make any real distinction between wearing or not wearing a mask at this time. What is the downside you ask, just the continued erosion of individual liberties certainly nothing important.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
ricko, would something the goes over the bridge bone and is loose over the cartilage part help?
I wanna think of some way to even prevent you from inhaling something nasty.
I have this over-eagerness to help.
back to long beach.
you can still go to the convention center
I miss coin shows so much I spent an hour yesterday looking at the coins in a display case in the local jewelry store even though they are the same coins that have been there forever. The best coin I found was a 1915 Barber Half in VG condition with original skin. I’m going to check my circ Barber Half album later and see if I need that one, if so I’ll go get it next weekend.
As for masks, here’s mine. I’m not sure if it is 100% effective but I feel much safer wearing it
Also, Mrs_Spud has her PHD in epidemiology and her Masters was in infectious diseases (for real, no kidding). She says that, at the very least, masks keep you from unconsciously putting your fingers in your mouth and touching your face so that’s good enough for me.
Also, I wish whomever was talking in front of this coin when it was raw was wearing a mask, then it wouldn’t have developed those black spots after it was slabbed. That’s the other thing masks are obviously good at, blocking spittle that people unconciously project all over coins, countertops, other people etc....
Mr_Spud
The virus can be transmitted by attaching itself to airborne droplets which are emitted and subsequently inhaled by someone else. Wearing a mask inhibits such droplets from becoming airborne, at least to a degree. You don't really need a comprehensive study to understand how a mask helps reduce transmission rates. Common sense will suffice.
And to what degree does a fabric mask stop airborne droplets? Here is some interesting info from the article that Bob13 linked:
"The virus itself is only about 0.1 µm in diameter. But because viruses don’t leave the body on their own, a mask doesn’t need to block particles that small to be effective. More relevant are the pathogen-transporting droplets and aerosols, which range from about 0.2 µm to hundreds of micrometres across. (An average human hair has a diameter of about 80 µm.) The majority are 1–10 µm in diameter and can linger in the air a long time, says Jose-Luis Jimenez, an environmental chemist at the University of Colorado Boulder. “That is where the action is.”"
The gap between the fibers of most fabric masks are much greater than the aerosols that escape due to talking and breathing.
Also from that article:
"Even well-fitting N95 respirators fall slightly short of their 95% rating in real-world use, actually filtering out around 90% of incoming aerosols down to 0.3 µm. And, according to unpublished research, N95 masks that don’t have exhalation valves — which expel unfiltered exhaled air — block a similar proportion of outgoing aerosols. Much less is known about surgical and cloth masks, says Kevin Fennelly, a pulmonologist at the US National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute in Bethesda, Maryland."
“There’s a lot of information out there, but it’s confusing to put all the lines of evidence together,” says Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health in New York City. “When it comes down to it, we still don’t know a lot.”
"For now, Osterholm, in Minnesota, wears a mask. Yet he laments the “lack of scientific rigour” that has so far been brought to the topic. “We criticize people all the time in the science world for making statements without any data,” he says. “We’re doing a lot of the same thing here.”"
In some places the article does claim that some researchers have seen (in clinical/lab results only) a lower transmission rate compared to a control group. But as you can see from the sections I quoted above there are just as many conflicting results.
So the real fact is that most of the recommendations are biased on observational (which have far too many variables to be of any real scientific use) and laboratory studies (which ae far more controlled than everyday life) and political agendas not hard science. The real issue here is the fear that is driving many people rather than logic and reason; if wearing a mask makes you feel better then by all means go right ahead I'm not advocating that anyone who wants to should not. But until there is some real hard evidence to prove that there is a real benefit some of you might want to holster your hostility and control your cancel culture towards those who feel/act differently than you. Now thats some real common sense for you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There are numerous studies (HUNDREDS!) related to influenza and SARS that were done pre-2020. It is simply not true that there are no studies. There are few studies for Covid-19 yet, but that's because so many other things have been going on.
The take home message from all those numerous studies is that N95 masks are very effective at reducing the viral load. Surgical masks and the like have limited affect and it is largely dependent on aerosol size. They have shown almost zero affect in preventing you getting infected from aerosols, but they reduce your spewing of virus by 20to75% in most of the studies. Hence, the "defense of others" argument.
The only downside to masks is not "individual liberty" as all laws are meant as infringements of individual liberty to protect the rights of others. The downside is that people think they are more effective than they are and don't do the other more important things like watch your distance and wash your hands. I've seen masked people meet in stores and shake hands or hug. They would be better off maskless and waving from a distance.
That isn't really an argument relevant to what is being said here. No one has floated a "conspiracy theory". And medical science is not definitive like math.
There is, for example, one recent study using cloth masks that asked the Covid positive patients to cough over a viral medium. 100% of the samples showed virus on the viral medium. Does that mean that masks are 0% effective? No. Because other studies showed 20 to 75% less virus and less virus in enclosed spaces decreases the R0 and the whole goal is to decrease the R0 to less than one, not to zero. But it does mean that masks aren't cure-alls. NY State has had a mask mandate since March. NY State still has virus including a recent surge despite the fact that I rarely see anyone in stores without one.
A better analogy would be:
Some say wear nothing.
Some say wear masks.
Some say wear a plastic bubble.
There is, now, a middle ground that doesn't require refuting any science or invoking any conspiracy theory.
It doesn't harm MOST people. People with certain respiratory conditions can't wear them. They don't put them on infants or toddlers for the same reason. It's not helping things if a 90 year old guy passes out from having his breathing obstructed.
This started with Ricko who I believe is near 80 saying he "can't" wear it over his nose. Whether he "can't" or "prefers not to", we don't know. But there is little point in mask shaming him. He might have a legitimate issue wearing the mask.
It actually started with RickO calling people who were simply doing their job "twits" without giving them (or us) an explanation of his condition.
Well, true. He did call them twits. But he did tell us that it "made my nose run". I really don't need his entire medical history. Cut the older folks some slack. I'm not that old and if I wear the mask in class for a couple of hours while lecturing, I start to get breathy. I can only imagine what it might do to an 80 or 90 year-old who has any respiratory issue.
He told us his medical condition after he got called out for being dismissive of people who were simply doing what their place of business and/or local government had instructed them to do.
Most people don't spend "a couple hours" in a store, and wearing a mask (properly) isn't a huge ask of the general population. Anyone for whom it is should be willing to explain such to whomever might enquire, without attitude or malice.
It's a moot point, but the nose thing is in the exact same message as the "twit" comment.
I find it compelling that the normal flu infection rate is way down this year. One might infer that the COVID containment measures are having some effect.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The hole I see in your argument is that those studies are around N95 masks, what percentage of the general population has access to and is wearing N95 masks? I'll bet that number is close to zero. None or few of those studies are about cloth masks which is what the public has access to. So those studies have little relevance to the current situation, as you wrote even in places where masks have been mandated since last March the transmission rates have been high. Places like NYC, and LA have had some of the most restrictive mandates and the number of deaths in those areas have been staggering. It seems very clear to me that short of an N95 mask everything else is more of a placebo rather than providing a defense against transmission. But again without actual science about the use of cloth masks these mandates are far more politicly driven than science biased. What we do know is this is a very aggressive and contagious virus so the only way to really protect oneself is distance and seclusion, that however leads to another whole host of additional problems.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I've been trying the mask thing out
it seems to block even 3 cent silvers
Or that the normal flu cases are being counted as Covid since its a known fact that the Covid test yields many false positives.
Well on the bright side, without show submissions they should be able to catch up a little on the backlog. Maybe it's a needed break.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.