@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
How can you discuss McGwire without taking steroids into consideration?
OK if you take his numbers at face value he was better than my favorite player Harmon Killebrew.
That's just wrong, please ad 1,000 more "wrongs" to that sentence.
McGwire wasn't great, McGwire on steroids was great.
I didn't start that discussion. Someone else did.
When you talk about Mark McGwire as a whole, you are exactly right. This discussion was compartmentalizing his numbers without taking into consideration steroids.
That's all I was saying. Someone said - steroids or not, McGwire was no better than Dave Kingman. That is so wrong on many levels as I proved above.
Charge: McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman
Verdict: Thrown out for ridiculousness.
New charge: Steroids inflated Mark McGwire's numbers.
Plea from McGwire: not guilty
Verdict: guilty
Sentencing: No HOF for McGwire
Sir, I respectfully retract the statement "McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
How can you discuss McGwire without taking steroids into consideration?
OK if you take his numbers at face value he was better than my favorite player Harmon Killebrew.
That's just wrong, please ad 1,000 more "wrongs" to that sentence.
McGwire wasn't great, McGwire on steroids was great.
I didn't start that discussion. Someone else did.
When you talk about Mark McGwire as a whole, you are exactly right. This discussion was compartmentalizing his numbers without taking into consideration steroids.
That's all I was saying. Someone said - steroids or not, McGwire was no better than Dave Kingman. That is so wrong on many levels as I proved above.
Charge: McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman
Verdict: Thrown out for ridiculousness.
New charge: Steroids inflated Mark McGwire's numbers.
Plea from McGwire: not guilty
Verdict: guilty
Sentencing: No HOF for McGwire
Sir, I respectfully retract the statement "McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman".
I like Frankhardy's analysis on McGwire. He was using facts and making reasonable arguments.
I am not going to argue for McGwire making the HOF as the use of steroids should be factored in that final decision.
However, based on his numbers only, he did have an incredible OPS+ that ranks among the all-time greats as does his home run total. His on base percentage was excellent for someone not hitting lead off. He did walk a lot. He was also an excellent fielder. Yes, he only got one gold glove, but that was only because the American League's all time best defensive first baseman happened to play at the same time. As a player, he only lack in speed and stolen bases, which is more valuable for a lead-off hitter anyway. Some may argue his batting average was a weak spot, but that metric does not tell the whole story as he did walk a lot boosting his OBP.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@jackstraw said:
Why is Dave Concepcion and or Willie Randolph not on the Veterans Ballot?
They technically are. What the committee does is they have dozens of names from a specific era that they draw from and select only 10 for the final ballot. Then, the players on the final ballot are voted on. Those with 75% of the votes or more get elected to the HOF. Randolph might make a future top 10 and have a chance for votes.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
i was looking at the ballot this morning and it looks like schilling is the only one that gets voted in this year. but i would not be surprised if he has to wait until next year. will there be any veteran player voted in this year?
@lwehlers said:
i was looking at the ballot this morning and it looks like schilling is the only one that gets voted in this year. but i would not be surprised if he has to wait until next year. will there be any veteran player voted in this year?
Toby Harrah (Similar stats and nearly identical WAR)
Darrell Evans (414 career home runs, 2200+ hits, 4x top 20 MVP finishes
Gary Gaetti
Carney Lansford (2000+ hits, .290 career hitter)
Vinny Castilla (identical offensive stats to Rolen)
Tim Wallach (similar offensive stats, 3 gold gloves, 2 silver sluggers, top 5 MVP finish
Ron Cey
Travis Fryman
Terry Pendleton (League MVP, 3 gold gloves)
Rolen, Nettles, Ramirez and Ventura are all almost identical. Ventura and Rolen are almost a mirror reflection of each other.
Colorado Guy here. I'd like to ask where you would rater Nolan Arenado in that list of 18, right now, and where you think he will end up when his career is over.
Thanks,
Jeff
I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. Collecting: post world war II HOF rookie 76 topps gem mint 10 commons 9 stars Arenado purple refractors(Rockies) Red (Cardinals) successful deals with Keevan, Grote15, 1954, mbogoman
i hope that arenado if he continues to play the way he has for the next five years he will be a top ten third baseman of all time. i just he does not get slighted because he has spent his entire career in colorado. even thou it did not hurt larry walker.
@lwehlers said:
i was looking at the ballot this morning and it looks like schilling is the only one that gets voted in this year. but i would not be surprised if he has to wait until next year. will there be any veteran player voted in this year?
If I understand correctly, no. Instead this year and next year's committees will meet in December. The Veteran's Committee is yet another tragedy of the Virus.
@lwehlers said:
i hope that arenado if he continues to play the way he has for the next five years he will be a top ten third baseman of all time. i just he does not get slighted because he has spent his entire career in colorado. even thou it did not hurt larry walker.
Did hurt Tulo, but was that the massive injuries.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
I agree that Edgar Martinez was a much better hitter than Rolen. But Rolen is considered one of the best defensive third basemen in the history of the game. He’s got an 855 OPS which would have him on the cusp of the hall of fame regardless of position. Rolen is definitely a hall of famer in my opinion. Not first ballot, but should get in at some point.
@lwehlers said:
i was looking at the ballot this morning and it looks like schilling is the only one that gets voted in this year. but i would not be surprised if he has to wait until next year. will there be any veteran player voted in this year?
Hoping for Tony Oliva.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@lwehlers said:
i hope that arenado if he continues to play the way he has for the next five years he will be a top ten third baseman of all time. i just he does not get slighted because he has spent his entire career in colorado. even thou it did not hurt larry walker.
We'll have to disagree. Walker was far too good a player, after normalizing his stats, to not get in until his last year on the ballot, much less not even reach 25% for seven years.
Toby Harrah (Similar stats and nearly identical WAR)
Darrell Evans (414 career home runs, 2200+ hits, 4x top 20 MVP finishes
Gary Gaetti
Carney Lansford (2000+ hits, .290 career hitter)
Vinny Castilla (identical offensive stats to Rolen)
Tim Wallach (similar offensive stats, 3 gold gloves, 2 silver sluggers, top 5 MVP finish
Ron Cey
Travis Fryman
Terry Pendleton (League MVP, 3 gold gloves)
Rolen, Nettles, Ramirez and Ventura are all almost identical. Ventura and Rolen are almost a mirror reflection of each other.
Colorado Guy here. I'd like to ask where you would rater Nolan Arenado in that list of 18, right now, and where you think he will end up when his career is over.
Thanks,
Jeff
When looking at Arenado's first 8 years and comparing it to the players on this list the only one that would draw a comparison is Ken Boyer so he's be at the top of the list. At this point in his career Arenado belongs in the same conversation as Schmidt, Brett, Eddie Mathews, Brooks Robinson, Wade Boggs and others that are considered the best of the best at third base. The biggest questions regarding Arenado's career at this point is can he remain healthy? can he sustain this kind of dominance at his position? and most importantly, how much playing in Colorado will impact how people view him after his career is over. We've seen it's impact on players like Larry Walker and Todd Helton. Interestingly, both Helton and Walker were in the top 8 for the MVP 3 times in their career. Arenado has already had 5 top 8 MVP finishes. I think he stands a much better chance of avoiding issues with hitting at Coors Field. His career away stats do suffer but would still be as good as just about any other offensive third baseman in the game.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
I think many people don't understand the baseball hall of fame is a museum independent from MLB.
That distinction makes the causes for banning like Rose for gambling and Bonds and others for PEDs meaningless.
How can a museum be complete without some of most prolific players of their eras? How can someone learn the history of the game if we attempt to whitewash it?
PEDs saved baseball after the strike-that fact is irrefutable. Sosa and Mac's HR chase in 1998 brought the sport back from irrelevance. Bonds was the most fearsome hitter of the modern era.
But they aren't in the hall.
Regardless if you dislike the PED use, you certainly cannot argue the hall is complete without their inclusion.
You are correct that it is a museum. There are artifacts from every player you mentioned in Cooperstown.
They’re not absent. They just don’t have a plaque. And their exclusion keeps them relevant and the resulting discussion about them exposes why.
What could be more perfect?
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Old School and others - Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Al Oliver, Frank Tanana, Dale Murphy, Kirk Gibson, Vince Coleman, Jamie Moyer, Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodriguez, Graig Nettles, Gil Hodges
Roids/issues - Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Pete Rose, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield. Jeff Kent, Curt Schilling, Alex Rodriguez
Probably left a few off. But these are the main ones. I think.
Oldies - Kaat, John, Wagner, Rodriguez, Murphy, Oliver should be in
Roids/issues guys - all should be in and it's not close.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
I think many people don't understand the baseball hall of fame is a museum independent from MLB.
That distinction makes the causes for banning like Rose for gambling and Bonds and others for PEDs meaningless.
How can a museum be complete without some of most prolific players of their eras? How can someone learn the history of the game if we attempt to whitewash it?
PEDs saved baseball after the strike-that fact is irrefutable. Sosa and Mac's HR chase in 1998 brought the sport back from irrelevance. Bonds was the most fearsome hitter of the modern era.
But they aren't in the hall.
Regardless if you dislike the PED use, you certainly cannot argue the hall is complete without their inclusion.
You are correct that it is a museum. There are artifacts from every player you mentioned in Cooperstown.
They’re not absent. They just don’t have a plaque. And their exclusion keeps them relevant and the resulting discussion about them exposes why.
What could be more perfect?
It's an incomplete museum of the most prolific players from baseball's history and a perfect encapsulation of why baseball is bleeding fans and has been for years - an adamant refusal to acknowledge the greatest players of a generation due to hazy "sportsmanship" issues and cloudy morality arguments.
Perfect? The opposite. It's a travesty to cataloguing the history of the game which is the museum's entire. point. of. existing.
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
Don't forget, the pitcher with more Cy Young awards (by far) than any other pitcher in MLB history is also not in...
kevin
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
Pete Rose dug his own grave. He was offered a hand, he was offered second chances and he was offered a lifetime to show anything resembling remorse. Every time, he instead used his shovel to dig himself in deeper.
The moment you allow for players, coaches and managers to bet on the games they participate in, the MLB becomes the WWF.
Pete Rose was all three and according to people who aren’t Pete Rose, he almost certainly began betting on baseball prior to the times he was actually caught doing so.
And you can’t go by what Pete Rose has to say because he has about as much credibility as Enron, Lehman Brothers and Arthur Anderson if they were one company run by Bernie Madoff.
As for the steroid boys? They all had a great chance to do the right thing and save their legacies when subpoenaed by Congress to tell the truth. Those that showed up (with the exception of Curt Schilling) made fools of themselves that day or later on trying to twist the truth in the face of direct questions.
Mark McGwire said he wasn’t here to talk about the past then cried when asked why.
Rafael Palmiero lied, wagged his finger and failed a test the next spring then retired.
Sammy Sosa, who was part of a national ad campaign for Pepsi and spoke in innumerable post game interviews suddenly didn’t have a good enough grasp of the language.
Who else did I miss? These all time greats you speak of are chemically enhanced pretenders who played lots of baseball games between them, helped the game recover from the strike (they’re also half responsible for that, particularly these guys who were the best ones who wanted more money, right?) reaped enormous financial rewards, kept every dime and destroyed the statistical legacy of the game, took away opportunities from guys who didn’t cheat and as a result weren’t able to make it to the majors and then when asked to own up to it for the good of the game and the nation to do nothing more than answer questions honestly, that was too much to ask? Guys like Will Clark, Monte Irvin, Don Mattingly, etc - the borderline guys of all eras? These steroid guys ruined their chances too. The ripple effect of harm is immense.
I always think back to that day on Capital Hill as conclusive proof of steroids in baseball: with all those major leaguers up there, Curt Schilling was the only man up there with the balls to tell the truth...
...and I don’t like Curt Schilling one bit, either.
But I’ll give the man his due for that day and the great performance against my beloved Yankees.
That guy belongs in the Hall.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I'd be perfectly happy if Bonds & Clemens never get in & give them the big fat middle finger..
IMO.. I'm sure many younger disagree & I'm fine with that too.
Baseball turned its back on its greatest players of an entire generation and in return, America has turned its back on baseball.
Talk about digging your own grave.
The baseball hall of fame omitting Clemens, Bonds and Rose is the same as the Louvre without the Mona Lisa.
I am done with this discussion. The people cheering on the exclusion of all-time great players to prove some opaque "morality" while attempting to argue for marginal players are proof they have truly lost their way.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Baseball turned its back on its greatest players of an entire generation and in return, America has turned its back on baseball.
Talk about digging your own grave.
The baseball hall of fame omitting Clemens, Bonds and Rose is the same as the Louvre without the Mona Lisa.
I am done with this discussion. The people cheering on the exclusion of all-time great players to prove some opaque "morality" while attempting to argue for marginal players are proof they have truly lost their way.
I agree with you. Hall of fame voters should be objectively assessing what players did on the baseball field and vote accordingly. Speculating on which guys did roids and which guys didn’t is nonsense. Just because you don’t like someone or what they did/do off the field, does not mean you can change the history of what happened on the field.
And that type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with our Society these days.
It's ok to cheat & bet on baseball..
going to be ugly to see where this country goes in the next 20 years.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
Pete Rose dug his own grave. He was offered a hand, he was offered second chances and he was offered a lifetime to show anything resembling remorse. Every time, he instead used his shovel to dig himself in deeper.
The moment you allow for players, coaches and managers to bet on the games they participate in, the MLB becomes the WWF.
Pete Rose was all three and according to people who aren’t Pete Rose, he almost certainly began betting on baseball prior to the times he was actually caught doing so.
And you can’t go by what Pete Rose has to say because he has about as much credibility as Enron, Lehman Brothers and Arthur Anderson if they were one company run by Bernie Madoff.
As for the steroid boys? They all had a great chance to do the right thing and save their legacies when subpoenaed by Congress to tell the truth. Those that showed up (with the exception of Curt Schilling) made fools of themselves that day or later on trying to twist the truth in the face of direct questions.
Mark McGwire said he wasn’t here to talk about the past then cried when asked why.
Rafael Palmiero lied, wagged his finger and failed a test the next spring then retired.
Sammy Sosa, who was part of a national ad campaign for Pepsi and spoke in innumerable post game interviews suddenly didn’t have a good enough grasp of the language.
Who else did I miss? These all time greats you speak of are chemically enhanced pretenders who played lots of baseball games between them, helped the game recover from the strike (they’re also half responsible for that, particularly these guys who were the best ones who wanted more money, right?) reaped enormous financial rewards, kept every dime and destroyed the statistical legacy of the game, took away opportunities from guys who didn’t cheat and as a result weren’t able to make it to the majors and then when asked to own up to it for the good of the game and the nation to do nothing more than answer questions honestly, that was too much to ask? Guys like Will Clark, Monte Irvin, Don Mattingly, etc - the borderline guys of all eras? These steroid guys ruined their chances too. The ripple effect of harm is immense.
I always think back to that day on Capital Hill as conclusive proof of steroids in baseball: with all those major leaguers up there, Curt Schilling was the only man up there with the balls to tell the truth...
...and I don’t like Curt Schilling one bit, either.
But I’ll give the man his due for that day and the great performance against my beloved Yankees.
That guy belongs in the Hall.
Best post I have EVER read.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Baseball turned its back on its greatest players of an entire generation and in return, America has turned its back on baseball.
Talk about digging your own grave.
The baseball hall of fame omitting Clemens, Bonds and Rose is the same as the Louvre without the Mona Lisa.
I am done with this discussion. The people cheering on the exclusion of all-time great players to prove some opaque "morality" while attempting to argue for marginal players are proof they have truly lost their way.
For the record, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH you that the Hall of Fame is too watered down at this point. There’s several easy fixes with that.
It’s actually not some opaque morality. That’s a bunch of nonsense. Gambling was illegal at the time and location everywhere Pete Rose placed a bet outside riverboats, Atlantic City and Las Vegas. That’s a crime.
Anabolic steroids, HGH and many other supplements were illegal drugs in the United States unless prescribed by a doctor and to the best of my knowledge I still can’t go to Walgreens and pick some up on any of them.
So I don’t want to hear they weren’t testing and it wasn’t illegal. Yes, in fact, it was illegal. I don’t think the MLB should need to adjust the league charter to cover murder statutes, either, you know? We have, you know, laws.
And I’ll also say there’s a nice compromise available here: a nice, well dimly lit cheaters wing in Cooperstown. A dank little room for Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose and Barry Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens and McGwire to get together and talk about how they fooled us all for the rest of time...
...and in front of the entrance, blocking it, let’s also have monuments to Roger Maris, Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron. So you’d have to walk past them to go check out the cheaters.
And I have less vitriol for the steroid boys than I do for Pete Rose, who can go do something that is anatomically impossible for most men for all eternity.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
100% correct. Once again, the hall of fame has embarrassed themselves for not voting anybody in. Schilling is a no brainer. But so many vote against him because they dont agree with his politics. I think the rules need to be changed. Should be 60% vote instead of the usual 75%. Majority should rule, so 60% should be the rule. Too many idiot voters who have no feelings for others, their families, etc.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Baseball turned its back on its greatest players of an entire generation and in return, America has turned its back on baseball.
Talk about digging your own grave.
The baseball hall of fame omitting Clemens, Bonds and Rose is the same as the Louvre without the Mona Lisa.
I am done with this discussion. The people cheering on the exclusion of all-time great players to prove some opaque "morality" while attempting to argue for marginal players are proof they have truly lost their way.
For the record, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH you that the Hall of Fame is too watered down at this point. There’s several easy fixes with that.
It’s actually not some opaque morality. That’s a bunch of nonsense. Gambling was illegal at the time and location everywhere Pete Rose placed a bet outside riverboats, Atlantic City and Las Vegas. That’s a crime.
Anabolic steroids, HGH and many other supplements were illegal drugs in the United States unless prescribed by a doctor and to the best of my knowledge I still can’t go to Walgreens and pick some up on any of them.
So I don’t want to hear they weren’t testing and it wasn’t illegal. Yes, in fact, it was illegal. I don’t think the MLB should need to adjust the league charter to cover murder statutes, either, you know? We have, you know, laws.
And I’ll also say there’s a nice compromise available here: a nice, well dimly lit cheaters wing in Cooperstown. A dank little room for Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose and Barry Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens and McGwire to get together and talk about how they fooled us all for the rest of time...
...and in front of the entrance, blocking it, let’s also have monuments to Roger Maris, Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron. So you’d have to walk past them to go check out the cheaters.
And I have less vitriol for the steroid boys than I do for Pete Rose, who can go do something that is anatomically impossible for most men for all eternity.
You're ON FIRE!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
@ArtVandelay said:
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Simple. Because he is 11-2 with a 2.23 era and 120 strike outs in the playoffs to go along with 3 world series championships all of which he was an integral part of his team making and winning. Nobody else on your list can claim to have made that type of impact to that many world series winning teams, and after all, the ultimate goal in the sport is to win the world series.
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@olb31 said:
Old School and others - Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Al Oliver, Frank Tanana, Dale Murphy, Kirk Gibson, Vince Coleman, Jamie Moyer, Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodriguez, Graig Nettles, Gil Hodges
Roids/issues - Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Pete Rose, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield. Jeff Kent, Curt Schilling, Alex Rodriguez
Probably left a few off. But these are the main ones. I think.
Oldies - Kaat, John, Wagner, Rodriguez, Murphy, Oliver should be in
Roids/issues guys - all should be in and it's not close.
As a Met fan who watched Wagner choke in any game that mattered, I would make pay a ticket to get into Cooperstown.
@ArtVandelay said:
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Simple. Because he is 11-2 with a 2.23 era and 120 strike outs in the playoffs to go along with 3 world series championships all of which he was an integral part of his team making and winning. Nobody else on your list can claim to have made that type of impact to that many world series winning teams, and after all, the ultimate goal in the sport is to win the world series.
Well said. Its not subject for debate. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
@ArtVandelay said:
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Simple. Because he is 11-2 with a 2.23 era and 120 strike outs in the playoffs to go along with 3 world series championships all of which he was an integral part of his team making and winning. Nobody else on your list can claim to have made that type of impact to that many world series winning teams, and after all, the ultimate goal in the sport is to win the world series.
Well said. Its not subject for debate. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Not to mention 1993 NLCS MVP and, if not for David West coming in and blowing game one, his game 5 shutout would have made him the favorite for MVP in the alternate reality where the Phillies won the series.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Playoff record of 13 games is not a hall of fame resume.
But for a pitcher thats like 50 games from a batter ! Figure he's pitching every 4 days.
He's a HOF Player who's a POP TART as a person.
Oh well... Lol
The thing that bothers me: Schilling talked his way out of the Hall while Blyleven talked his way in. Schilling is unpopular so he’s out, but Baines was beloved by the right people so he’s in.
There is enough politics everywhere else, I don’t want it in baseball, one of the few escapes I have. Membership to the HoF makes no sense to me anymore, and that feels crappy.
@ArtVandelay said:
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Schilling has nothing in common with Welch. Brown is the only one remotely comparable with Schilling, but Welch is a ridiculous stretch.
Some people elected into the Rock hall of fame told the rock hall to stick it where the sun don't shine. Sounds like Schilling did the same thing to the baseball hall
@ArtVandelay said:
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Simple. Because he is 11-2 with a 2.23 era and 120 strike outs in the playoffs to go along with 3 world series championships all of which he was an integral part of his team making and winning. Nobody else on your list can claim to have made that type of impact to that many world series winning teams, and after all, the ultimate goal in the sport is to win the world series.
Well said. Its not subject for debate. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Not to mention 1993 NLCS MVP and, if not for David West coming in and blowing game one, his game 5 shutout would have made him the favorite for MVP in the alternate reality where the Phillies won the series.
Lenny Dykstra’s poor angle on Devon White’s fly ball triple lost game 4 and the 1993 series for the Phillies.
@olb31 said:
Old School and others - Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Al Oliver, Frank Tanana, Dale Murphy, Kirk Gibson, Vince Coleman, Jamie Moyer, Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodriguez, Graig Nettles, Gil Hodges
Roids/issues - Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Pete Rose, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield. Jeff Kent, Curt Schilling, Alex Rodriguez
Probably left a few off. But these are the main ones. I think.
Oldies - Kaat, John, Wagner, Rodriguez, Murphy, Oliver should be in
Roids/issues guys - all should be in and it's not close.
As a Met fan who watched Wagner choke in any game that mattered, I would make pay a ticket to get into Cooperstown.
probably a little iffy, I agree. I just put in all the guys who had 400 saves or more.
Comments
Sir, I respectfully retract the statement "McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman".
Virtual fistbump!
Shane
I like Frankhardy's analysis on McGwire. He was using facts and making reasonable arguments.
I am not going to argue for McGwire making the HOF as the use of steroids should be factored in that final decision.
However, based on his numbers only, he did have an incredible OPS+ that ranks among the all-time greats as does his home run total. His on base percentage was excellent for someone not hitting lead off. He did walk a lot. He was also an excellent fielder. Yes, he only got one gold glove, but that was only because the American League's all time best defensive first baseman happened to play at the same time. As a player, he only lack in speed and stolen bases, which is more valuable for a lead-off hitter anyway. Some may argue his batting average was a weak spot, but that metric does not tell the whole story as he did walk a lot boosting his OBP.
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Why is Dave Concepcion and or Willie Randolph not on the Veterans Ballot?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
They technically are. What the committee does is they have dozens of names from a specific era that they draw from and select only 10 for the final ballot. Then, the players on the final ballot are voted on. Those with 75% of the votes or more get elected to the HOF. Randolph might make a future top 10 and have a chance for votes.
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There are more people I’d want out of the HoF then guys I’d want to see get in.
i was looking at the ballot this morning and it looks like schilling is the only one that gets voted in this year. but i would not be surprised if he has to wait until next year. will there be any veteran player voted in this year?
Dick Allen
Colorado Guy here. I'd like to ask where you would rater Nolan Arenado in that list of 18, right now, and where you think he will end up when his career is over.
Thanks,
Jeff
Collecting:
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76 topps gem mint 10 commons 9 stars
Arenado purple refractors(Rockies) Red (Cardinals)
successful deals with Keevan, Grote15, 1954, mbogoman
i hope that arenado if he continues to play the way he has for the next five years he will be a top ten third baseman of all time. i just he does not get slighted because he has spent his entire career in colorado. even thou it did not hurt larry walker.
If I understand correctly, no. Instead this year and next year's committees will meet in December. The Veteran's Committee is yet another tragedy of the Virus.
Did hurt Tulo, but was that the massive injuries.
I agree that Edgar Martinez was a much better hitter than Rolen. But Rolen is considered one of the best defensive third basemen in the history of the game. He’s got an 855 OPS which would have him on the cusp of the hall of fame regardless of position. Rolen is definitely a hall of famer in my opinion. Not first ballot, but should get in at some point.
Hoping for Tony Oliva.
We'll have to disagree. Walker was far too good a player, after normalizing his stats, to not get in until his last year on the ballot, much less not even reach 25% for seven years.
When looking at Arenado's first 8 years and comparing it to the players on this list the only one that would draw a comparison is Ken Boyer so he's be at the top of the list. At this point in his career Arenado belongs in the same conversation as Schmidt, Brett, Eddie Mathews, Brooks Robinson, Wade Boggs and others that are considered the best of the best at third base. The biggest questions regarding Arenado's career at this point is can he remain healthy? can he sustain this kind of dominance at his position? and most importantly, how much playing in Colorado will impact how people view him after his career is over. We've seen it's impact on players like Larry Walker and Todd Helton. Interestingly, both Helton and Walker were in the top 8 for the MVP 3 times in their career. Arenado has already had 5 top 8 MVP finishes. I think he stands a much better chance of avoiding issues with hitting at Coors Field. His career away stats do suffer but would still be as good as just about any other offensive third baseman in the game.
D.J. LeMahieu has gotten out from under that Boulder. Pun Intended.
You are correct that it is a museum. There are artifacts from every player you mentioned in Cooperstown.
They’re not absent. They just don’t have a plaque. And their exclusion keeps them relevant and the resulting discussion about them exposes why.
What could be more perfect?
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Old School and others - Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Al Oliver, Frank Tanana, Dale Murphy, Kirk Gibson, Vince Coleman, Jamie Moyer, Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodriguez, Graig Nettles, Gil Hodges
Roids/issues - Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Pete Rose, Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield. Jeff Kent, Curt Schilling, Alex Rodriguez
Probably left a few off. But these are the main ones. I think.
Oldies - Kaat, John, Wagner, Rodriguez, Murphy, Oliver should be in
Roids/issues guys - all should be in and it's not close.
It's an incomplete museum of the most prolific players from baseball's history and a perfect encapsulation of why baseball is bleeding fans and has been for years - an adamant refusal to acknowledge the greatest players of a generation due to hazy "sportsmanship" issues and cloudy morality arguments.
Perfect? The opposite. It's a travesty to cataloguing the history of the game which is the museum's entire. point. of. existing.
When we are stuck arguing semantics of why peripheral players why Jim Kaat should be in the hall while turning our backs on Bonds, Clemens, and Rose, then the museum is no longer relevant but to an ever-shrinking segment of the population who wants to wag their fingers and claim to be morally outraged.
Baseball is dying and has been for years. This discussion is a perfect distillation of why.
edit: the all-time hits leader, all-time and single-season HR leader are not HoF inductees. It's a fact the hall is incomplete without their inclusion.
Don't forget, the pitcher with more Cy Young awards (by far) than any other pitcher in MLB history is also not in...
kevin
Pete Rose dug his own grave. He was offered a hand, he was offered second chances and he was offered a lifetime to show anything resembling remorse. Every time, he instead used his shovel to dig himself in deeper.
The moment you allow for players, coaches and managers to bet on the games they participate in, the MLB becomes the WWF.
Pete Rose was all three and according to people who aren’t Pete Rose, he almost certainly began betting on baseball prior to the times he was actually caught doing so.
And you can’t go by what Pete Rose has to say because he has about as much credibility as Enron, Lehman Brothers and Arthur Anderson if they were one company run by Bernie Madoff.
As for the steroid boys? They all had a great chance to do the right thing and save their legacies when subpoenaed by Congress to tell the truth. Those that showed up (with the exception of Curt Schilling) made fools of themselves that day or later on trying to twist the truth in the face of direct questions.
Mark McGwire said he wasn’t here to talk about the past then cried when asked why.
Rafael Palmiero lied, wagged his finger and failed a test the next spring then retired.
Sammy Sosa, who was part of a national ad campaign for Pepsi and spoke in innumerable post game interviews suddenly didn’t have a good enough grasp of the language.
Who else did I miss? These all time greats you speak of are chemically enhanced pretenders who played lots of baseball games between them, helped the game recover from the strike (they’re also half responsible for that, particularly these guys who were the best ones who wanted more money, right?) reaped enormous financial rewards, kept every dime and destroyed the statistical legacy of the game, took away opportunities from guys who didn’t cheat and as a result weren’t able to make it to the majors and then when asked to own up to it for the good of the game and the nation to do nothing more than answer questions honestly, that was too much to ask? Guys like Will Clark, Monte Irvin, Don Mattingly, etc - the borderline guys of all eras? These steroid guys ruined their chances too. The ripple effect of harm is immense.
I always think back to that day on Capital Hill as conclusive proof of steroids in baseball: with all those major leaguers up there, Curt Schilling was the only man up there with the balls to tell the truth...
...and I don’t like Curt Schilling one bit, either.
But I’ll give the man his due for that day and the great performance against my beloved Yankees.
That guy belongs in the Hall.
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I'd be perfectly happy if Bonds & Clemens never get in & give them the big fat middle finger..
IMO.. I'm sure many younger disagree & I'm fine with that too.
Baseball turned its back on its greatest players of an entire generation and in return, America has turned its back on baseball.
Talk about digging your own grave.
The baseball hall of fame omitting Clemens, Bonds and Rose is the same as the Louvre without the Mona Lisa.
I am done with this discussion. The people cheering on the exclusion of all-time great players to prove some opaque "morality" while attempting to argue for marginal players are proof they have truly lost their way.
I agree with you. Hall of fame voters should be objectively assessing what players did on the baseball field and vote accordingly. Speculating on which guys did roids and which guys didn’t is nonsense. Just because you don’t like someone or what they did/do off the field, does not mean you can change the history of what happened on the field.
And that type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with our Society these days.
It's ok to cheat & bet on baseball..
going to be ugly to see where this country goes in the next 20 years.
Best post I have EVER read.
For the record, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH you that the Hall of Fame is too watered down at this point. There’s several easy fixes with that.
It’s actually not some opaque morality. That’s a bunch of nonsense. Gambling was illegal at the time and location everywhere Pete Rose placed a bet outside riverboats, Atlantic City and Las Vegas. That’s a crime.
Anabolic steroids, HGH and many other supplements were illegal drugs in the United States unless prescribed by a doctor and to the best of my knowledge I still can’t go to Walgreens and pick some up on any of them.
So I don’t want to hear they weren’t testing and it wasn’t illegal. Yes, in fact, it was illegal. I don’t think the MLB should need to adjust the league charter to cover murder statutes, either, you know? We have, you know, laws.
And I’ll also say there’s a nice compromise available here: a nice, well dimly lit cheaters wing in Cooperstown. A dank little room for Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose and Barry Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens and McGwire to get together and talk about how they fooled us all for the rest of time...
...and in front of the entrance, blocking it, let’s also have monuments to Roger Maris, Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron. So you’d have to walk past them to go check out the cheaters.
And I have less vitriol for the steroid boys than I do for Pete Rose, who can go do something that is anatomically impossible for most men for all eternity.
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@BriantheTaxGuy
Also, just enjoying debating the point.
You are entitled to your opinion obviously.
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100% correct. Once again, the hall of fame has embarrassed themselves for not voting anybody in. Schilling is a no brainer. But so many vote against him because they dont agree with his politics. I think the rules need to be changed. Should be 60% vote instead of the usual 75%. Majority should rule, so 60% should be the rule. Too many idiot voters who have no feelings for others, their families, etc.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Big fat zero entrants this year.
Schilling was the only one on the ballot I would have voted for.
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Really surprised Schilling did not get in....
And now he has asked to be removed from next year's voting.
Only his latest tantrum. I would still vote him in, like I said, based on baseball accomplishments. But he’s a giant man baby.
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You're ON FIRE!
I'm not sure why people think Curt Schilling is so automatic. Here are some pitchers not in the hall as compared to Schilling.
Curt Schilling
216 wins -146 losses - 3.46 era - 20 shutouts -3116 strike outs top 4 cy young 4x) World Series Champion
Luis Tiant
229 wins - 172 losses - 3.30 era - 49 shutouts - 2416 strike outs (top 6 cy young 4x)
Orel Hershiser
204 wins - 150 losses - 3.48 era - 25 shutouts - 2014 strike outs (Cy Young 1988, 4x top 4 cy young finishes, 59 consecutive shutout innings (record), World Series champion
Kevin Brown
211 wins - 144 losses - 3.28 era - 17 shutouts - 2397 strike outs (5x top 6 cy young finishes, world series champ.
Bob Welch
211 wins - 146 losses - 3.47 era - 28 shutouts - 1969 strikeouts (1990 Cy Young, World Series Champ)
Vida Blue
209 wins - 161 losses - 3.27 era - 37 shutouts - 2175 strikeouts (1971 Cy Young+Most Valuable Player, World Series Champ, 5x top 7 cy young finishes
Tim Hudson
222 wins - 133 losses - 3.49 era - 13 shutouts - 2080 strike outs (4x top 6 cy young, World Series Champ)
Simple. Because he is 11-2 with a 2.23 era and 120 strike outs in the playoffs to go along with 3 world series championships all of which he was an integral part of his team making and winning. Nobody else on your list can claim to have made that type of impact to that many world series winning teams, and after all, the ultimate goal in the sport is to win the world series.
Collecting:
post world war II HOF rookie
76 topps gem mint 10 commons 9 stars
Arenado purple refractors(Rockies) Red (Cardinals)
successful deals with Keevan, Grote15, 1954, mbogoman
As a Met fan who watched Wagner choke in any game that mattered, I would make pay a ticket to get into Cooperstown.
Well said. Its not subject for debate. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Not to mention 1993 NLCS MVP and, if not for David West coming in and blowing game one, his game 5 shutout would have made him the favorite for MVP in the alternate reality where the Phillies won the series.
Playoff record of 13 games is not a hall of fame resume.
But for a pitcher thats like 50 games from a batter ! Figure he's pitching every 4 days.
He's a HOF Player who's a POP TART as a person.
Oh well... Lol
50 games doesn't make a hall of fame career either LOL
He lost his chance at the hall when he compared Muslims to nazis, mocked the trans community, cheering on insurrectionists and journalists.
Let's also not forget his swindling Rhode island out of 75 million for his video game "company."
His accomplishments on the field made him a marginal hall of famer. His conduct off it make him permanently ineligible.
The thing that bothers me: Schilling talked his way out of the Hall while Blyleven talked his way in. Schilling is unpopular so he’s out, but Baines was beloved by the right people so he’s in.
There is enough politics everywhere else, I don’t want it in baseball, one of the few escapes I have. Membership to the HoF makes no sense to me anymore, and that feels crappy.
Schilling has nothing in common with Welch. Brown is the only one remotely comparable with Schilling, but Welch is a ridiculous stretch.
Some people elected into the Rock hall of fame told the rock hall to stick it where the sun don't shine. Sounds like Schilling did the same thing to the baseball hall
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Lenny Dykstra’s poor angle on Devon White’s fly ball triple lost game 4 and the 1993 series for the Phillies.
probably a little iffy, I agree. I just put in all the guys who had 400 saves or more.