A comparison to the top ten players at the 3B position in MLB history that includes nine current HOFers and one HOF shoo-in doesn't qualify as a "subset of a subset of players."
Jason
All of the HOF third basemen had at least one of the following: 3000+ Hits, 500+ HR or .300+ BA. The only exceptions to this are Santo, Robinson (who had 2848 hits) and Rolen. Rolen was a great player and deserves consideration, but he is not a HOFer. He was not elite in any aspect of his game. Simply a very good player.
Why do you ignore defense where Rolen was an elite defender? How many pitchers in MLB history that are in the HOF were able to accomplish wins, shutouts, or perfect games without defenders behind them?
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
5% growth from 96 to 97.
11% growth 97 to 98.
That's not noise.
2+ years of growth happening in a single year and you're going to suggest that's not causation ?
And then attendance fell from 1998 to 1999. Obviously, the cheating contest itself increased attendance while it was happening, but once it was over attendance fell back to almost exactly where it was expected to be had the cheating contest never happened. My apologies if this is smoe kind of religious belief that you accept on faith; I'm just pointing out that there are no actual facts that support the belief that baseball was "saved" by pharmaceuticals in 1998.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
5% growth from 96 to 97.
11% growth 97 to 98.
That's not noise.
2+ years of growth happening in a single year and you're going to suggest that's not causation ?
And then attendance fell from 1998 to 1999. Obviously, the cheating contest itself increased attendance while it was happening, but once it was over attendance fell back to almost exactly where it was expected to be had the cheating contest never happened. My apologies if this is smoe kind of religious belief that you accept on faith; I'm just pointing out that there are no actual facts that support the belief that baseball was "saved" by pharmaceuticals in 1998.
It "fell" by a total of 500k fans. For the entire season. 7/10ths of 1% dropoff. Talk about noise.
In 2001, when Bonds was chasing 73 home runs, attendance was 72 million (the highest ever), then dropped off by over 6% the following year.
I don't base my arguments on personal beliefs; the numbers back it up. Meanwhile, the folks who want to stick their heads in the sand and state that PED users didn't bring baseball back from the abyss are allowing emotion to dictate their statements. Your use of the term "cheating contest" is not helping your case.
A comparison to the top ten players at the 3B position in MLB history that includes nine current HOFers and one HOF shoo-in doesn't qualify as a "subset of a subset of players."
Jason
All of the HOF third basemen had at least one of the following: 3000+ Hits, 500+ HR or .300+ BA. The only exceptions to this are Santo, Robinson (who had 2848 hits) and Rolen. Rolen was a great player and deserves consideration, but he is not a HOFer. He was not elite in any aspect of his game. Simply a very good player.
Why do you ignore defense where Rolen was an elite defender? How many pitchers in MLB history that are in the HOF were able to accomplish wins, shutouts, or perfect games without defenders behind them?
Jason
Because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. You ignore a pitcher's batting prowess (or lack thereof), so relying on metrics that cannot be quantified. Replacing an elite defender with a league-average replacement has far less impact on a team than it does replace a bat in the same scenario.
It "fell" by a total of 500k fans. For the entire season. 7/10ths of 1% dropoff. Talk about noise.
I don't know if you really aren't understanding the simple statistical point I'm making, or if you're just being obtuse, but either way there doesn't seem to be any point to discussing it further.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
It "fell" by a total of 500k fans. For the entire season. 7/10ths of 1% dropoff. Talk about noise.
I don't know if you really aren't understanding the simple statistical point I'm making, or if you're just being obtuse, but either way there doesn't seem to be any point to discussing it further.
I understand the point you were making just fine. You wanted to dismiss the two-year jump in attendance happening in a single year, coinciding with the HR chase, suggesting it would have happened anyway.
You have your beliefs. I have mine. Enjoy your day.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. You ignore a pitcher's batting prowess (or lack thereof), so relying on metrics that cannot be quantified. Replacing an elite defender with a league-average replacement has far less impact on a team than it does replace a bat in the same scenario.
We’ll have to agree to disagree because by this logic Ozzie Smith shouldn’t be in the HOF which is preposterous to me.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
I understand the point you were making just fine. You wanted to dismiss the two-year jump in attendance happening in a single year, coinciding with the HR chase, suggesting it would have happened anyway.
Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying or you wouldn't keep referring to the "two-year jump". And that's fine, I'm sure you have strengths other than statistics.
You have your beliefs. I have mine. Enjoy your day.
You have beliefs, I have numbers. You enjoy your day, too.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. You ignore a pitcher's batting prowess (or lack thereof), so relying on metrics that cannot be quantified. Replacing an elite defender with a league-average replacement has far less impact on a team than it does replace a bat in the same scenario.
We’ll have to agree to disagree because by this logic Ozzie Smith shouldn’t be in the HOF which is preposterous to me.
Jason
He shouldn't be in the hall of fame. But let's be honest, the only reason he is in the hall is because of his backflips which somehow enamored writers and gave lazy broadcasters a story to use every time he was on TV.
Anyone ever wonder this: There's only like 400 ballots and they have to be postmarked by a certain date and they seem to take forever to count???? One person with a spreadsheet could count those ballots. The process has never really seemed legit. I mean where are the writers sending the ballots from- Pluto or something??
@Mickey71 said:
Anyone ever wonder this: There's only like 400 ballots and they have to be postmarked by a certain date and they seem to take forever to count???? One person with a spreadsheet could count those ballots. The process has never really seemed legit. I mean where are the writers sending the ballots from- Pluto or something??
I am sure the delay is intentional. Suspense, and all that nonsense.
The knock on Rolen is that he missed a TON of games. If we ignore his rookie year where he played 37 games, he averaged 127 games a year for the rest of his career. He missed 561 games over his 16 seasons (again, ignoring rookie year) - that's 3-1/2 full seasons. Adrian Beltre, on the other hand, averaged 143 games. Rolen played in 150 games just 5 times - Beltre did it 10 times (and 149 another year).
I have no intention of interjecting in the rolen's debate.
The more fun part of my collecting objective is speculating on future HOF inductees.
Sorry, I have no plans on adding rolen. I'd be happy to change in the future
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
agree these days. hell, they can even give them the office space milton treatment and put them in the basement w/o their staplers. shoeless should be added first and foremost though.
A comparison to the top ten players at the 3B position in MLB history that includes nine current HOFers and one HOF shoo-in doesn't qualify as a "subset of a subset of players."
Jason
All of the HOF third basemen had at least one of the following: 3000+ Hits, 500+ HR or .300+ BA. The only exceptions to this are Santo, Robinson (who had 2848 hits) and Rolen. Rolen was a great player and deserves consideration, but he is not a HOFer. He was not elite in any aspect of his game. Simply a very good player.
That bolded statement is one of the silliest I've read on this board in years. Rolen is one of the greatest fielding third basemen OF ALL TIME.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
That Golden Days Era Ballot has some interesting names on it. Allen, Minoso, Freehan, and Oliva stand out the most to me. I wouldn't be upset if any of them got in. Allen and Oliva have already been talked about a good bit.
Minoso was a great player. 7 AS games, .298 avg., 130 career OPS+ with 8 seasons over 130. One of the first Cuban stars in the MLB.
Freehan might be the best catcher not in the hall, that no one ever talks about. He made 11 AS games including 10 in a row. He had 5 GGs. He was an above average hitter and was a great fielder at the toughest position on the field, and was one of the premier catchers from the mid 60s through the early 70s. He should atleast be talked about more than he is.
What I Collect:
PSA HOF Baseball Postwar Rookies Set Registry- (Currently 77.97% Complete)
PSA Pro Football HOF Rookie Players Set Registry- (Currently 19.26% Complete)
PSA Basketball HOF Players Rookies Set Registry- (Currently 6.02% Complete)
A comparison to the top ten players at the 3B position in MLB history that includes nine current HOFers and one HOF shoo-in doesn't qualify as a "subset of a subset of players."
Jason
All of the HOF third basemen had at least one of the following: 3000+ Hits, 500+ HR or .300+ BA. The only exceptions to this are Santo, Robinson (who had 2848 hits) and Rolen. Rolen was a great player and deserves consideration, but he is not a HOFer. He was not elite in any aspect of his game. Simply a very good player.
Why do you ignore defense where Rolen was an elite defender? How many pitchers in MLB history that are in the HOF were able to accomplish wins, shutouts, or perfect games without defenders behind them?
Jason
Wins, shutouts, and perfect games are all very, very poor ways to determine's the value of a pitcher.
@orioles93 said:
That Golden Days Era Ballot has some interesting names on it. Allen, Minoso, Freehan, and Oliva stand out the most to me. I wouldn't be upset if any of them got in. Allen and Oliva have already been talked about a good bit.
Minoso was a great player. 7 AS games, .298 avg., 130 career OPS+ with 8 seasons over 130. One of the first Cuban stars in the MLB.
Freehan might be the best catcher not in the hall, that no one ever talks about. He made 11 AS games including 10 in a row. He had 5 GGs. He was an above average hitter and was a great fielder at the toughest position on the field, and was one of the premier catchers from the mid 60s through the early 70s. He should atleast be talked about more than he is.
Totally agree on Freehan. He at least needs to enter the conversation. Maybe Ted Simmons getting in will help him get a second look.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
As a Yankee fan I like Nettles. Could win a game with his glove. Would I put him inside along Mike Schmidt.....no.
Food for thought here. Since the game has changed.....
Balls juicier. Elite power hitters are launching balls 120 MPH. Are fielders getting more errors? Getting to less balls?
Pitchers throw harder....are catchers getting more errors and passed balls?
Now starting pitchers are out at 5 innings and then we see maybe 2 to 5 more with different stuff and velocities. Are batting averages going down? In the old days when a pitcher might go nine on a regular basis were there more HR's
hit in the later innings when he was tired vs the first 7 innings?
After Beltre who are the next best 5 3rd basemen in the last 20 years?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
3rd baseman have been pretty weak over the last 20 years. There has only been a couple elite Hall of Fame types. The best 3rd baseman in the last 20 years is Nolan Arenado. He has 8 gold gloves in 8 years, 4 silver sluggers, and been in the top 8 in the MVP voting 5 times and he's only just turning 30. Right after him is Manny Machado. Manny has a definite chance at 500 home runs and 3,000 hits. He's nearly halfway there and is only 28. He's also been in the top 5 MVP voting 3 times and has 2 gold gloves.
@orioles93 said:
That Golden Days Era Ballot has some interesting names on it. Allen, Minoso, Freehan, and Oliva stand out the most to me. I wouldn't be upset if any of them got in. Allen and Oliva have already been talked about a good bit.
Minoso was a great player. 7 AS games, .298 avg., 130 career OPS+ with 8 seasons over 130. One of the first Cuban stars in the MLB.
Freehan might be the best catcher not in the hall, that no one ever talks about. He made 11 AS games including 10 in a row. He had 5 GGs. He was an above average hitter and was a great fielder at the toughest position on the field, and was one of the premier catchers from the mid 60s through the early 70s. He should atleast be talked about more than he is.
A few of us have talked about him. GREAT catcher!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
It's quickly become the Hall of Slightly Above Average (if you hung around long enough and the writers and/or Vets committee like you). 2019 made the HOF completely irrelevant to me, though it wasn't the first year of some dubious selections.
These writers would rather vote in very good players than being brave and voting in true all-time greats like Bonds or Clemens.
Regardless of thinking they deserve it or not myself, I do find it interesting that with the votes already supposedly tabulated, Bonds has one more total vote than Clemens does. I would have guessed that everyone voting for them felt it was a both-or-neither situation, all things considered.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
It's quickly become the Hall of Slightly Above Average (if you hung around long enough and the writers and/or Vets committee like you). 2019 made the HOF completely irrelevant to me, though it wasn't the first year of some dubious selections.
These writers would rather vote in very good players than being brave and voting in true all-time greats like Bonds or Clemens.
Regardless of thinking they deserve it or not myself, I do find it interesting that with the votes already supposedly tabulated, Bonds has one more total vote than Clemens does. I would have guessed that everyone voting for them felt it was a both-or-neither situation, all things considered.
Christina Kahrl is the only one who votes for Bonds and not Clemens. Her rationale last year:
But the ballot is also very clear in its instructions that those are not the only criteria with which to make informed choices. After spending more time in the past year looking at the questions surrounding Clemens' interactions with Mindy McCready, alleged and agreed-upon, starting from when she was a minor, and discussing the issue with other colleagues, I can only say that going forward, should he ultimately get elected, it will have to be without my support.
Freehan might be the best catcher not in the hall, that no one ever talks about. He made 11 AS games including 10 in a row. He had 5 GGs. He was an above average hitter and was a great fielder at the toughest position on the field, and was one of the premier catchers from the mid 60s through the early 70s. He should atleast be talked about more than he is.
Freehan is absolutely a HOFer and should have been in a long time ago.
After Beltre who are the next best 5 3rd basemen in the last 20 years?
Hard to answer, because it is hard to determine who qualifies. Chipper Jones played 11 seasons in the last 20 years. If we were to list the next five not currently eligible for induction, with the understanding that this list will look very different as some of the younger third basemen get to full career length, a list could be something like this:
After Beltre who are the next best 5 3rd basemen in the last 20 years?
Hard to answer, because it is hard to determine who qualifies. Chipper Jones played 11 seasons in the last 20 years. If we were to list the next five not currently eligible for induction, with the understanding that this list will look very different as some of the younger third basemen get to full career length, a list could be something like this:
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
The must see TV you mentioned was all orchestrated by MLB to increase attendance after losing much of their audience post strike and the NBA and NFL's popularity. Their attempt was to manufacture the breaking of one of the most revered MLB records...Roger Maris's 61. I can agree that it did succeed in entertainment value but it was about as real as pro wrestling.
@ArtVandelay said:
McGwire is Dave Kingman without the steroids.
The must see TV you mentioned was all orchestrated by MLB to increase attendance after losing much of their audience post strike and the NBA and NFL's popularity. Their attempt was to manufacture the breaking of one of the most revered MLB records...Roger Maris's 61. I can agree that it did succeed in entertainment value but it was about as real as pro wrestling.
Dave Kingman? That is just your impression. Look at just the numbers. Kingman's OPS was .780 which make him rank 639th all time right up there with good 'ole Wally Moses, Troy O' Leary, and Russ Wrighstone. He almost had as good of a career OPS as Kevin Seitzer.
Mark McGwire (to repeat once more) was 10th all time and had a Better OPS than Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, and even Albert freakin' Pujols.
I realize that OPS doesn't tell the whole story but it is a very good offensive indicator to know the impact a player had. Kingman's BEST year did not meet McGwire's average.
Let's look at War. War is probably the best measurement of an all around player. McGwire is 165th with 62.2. Not all time great but not shabby either. McGwire played 16 seasons. WAR is a cumulative stat. Consider that McGwire's WAR (16 seasons) is better than Harmon Killebrew (22 seasons), Ichiro (19 seasons), Mike Piazza (16 seasons), Yogi Berra (16 seasons), Vladimir Guerrero (16 seasons). I could go on.
By the way.... Kingman's WAR is 17.3. Baseball Reference only lists the top 1,000. You won't find Kingman on the list. Ranked number 1,000 you will see Vic Wertz at 26.9. Kingman might not even be top 1,300.
Not considering steroids, believing that Mark McGwire doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame is shallow thinking in my book. You have been listening to too many media types who make the same mistake.
I have used what old timers call logic and common sense, which is sorely lacking today.
Your witness..... Or maybe I should say.... Case dismissed.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ArtVandelay said:
McGwire is Dave Kingman without the steroids.
The must see TV you mentioned was all orchestrated by MLB to increase attendance after losing much of their audience post strike and the NBA and NFL's popularity. Their attempt was to manufacture the breaking of one of the most revered MLB records...Roger Maris's 61. I can agree that it did succeed in entertainment value but it was about as real as pro wrestling.
Dave Kingman? That is just your impression. Look at just the numbers. Kingman's OPS was .780 which make him rank 639th all time right up there with good 'ole Wally Moses, Troy O' Leary, and Russ Wrighstone. He almost had as good of a career OPS as Kevin Seitzer.
Mark McGwire (to repeat once more) was 10th all time and had a Better OPS than Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, and even Albert freakin' Pujols.
I realize that OPS doesn't tell the whole story but it is a very good offensive indicator to know the impact a player had. Kingman's BEST year did not meet McGwire's average.
Let's look at War. War is probably the best measurement of an all around player. McGwire is 165th with 62.2. Not all time great but not shabby either. McGwire played 16 seasons. WAR is a cumulative stat. Consider that McGwire's WAR (16 seasons) is better than Harmon Killebrew (22 seasons), Ichiro (19 seasons), Mike Piazza (16 seasons), Yogi Berra (16 seasons), Vladimir Guerrero (16 seasons). I could go on.
By the way.... Kingman's WAR is 17.3. Baseball Reference only lists the top 1,000. You won't find Kingman on the list. Ranked number 1,000 you will see Vic Wertz at 26.9. Kingman might not even be top 1,300.
Not considering steroids, believing that Mark McGwire doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame is shallow thinking in my book. You have been listening to too many media types who make the same mistake.
I have used what old timers call logic and common sense, which is sorely lacking today.
Your witness..... Or maybe I should say.... Case dismissed.
McGwire admitted to doing steroids.
Case overturned on appeal.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
Plus, his numbers fell in 1991 because he was injured.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
How can you discuss McGwire without taking steroids into consideration?
OK if you take his numbers at face value he was better than my favorite player Harmon Killebrew.
That's just wrong, please ad 1,000 more "wrongs" to that sentence.
McGwire wasn't great, McGwire on steroids was great.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
@BriantheTaxGuy said:
Any baseball museum without Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Rose is not a complete museum of baseball history.
None of the players added to this year's ballot should ever sniff the hall of fame. Scott Rolen? Todd Helton? Come on, man.
McGwire doesn’t belong in the hall - roids or not. Agreed on everything else.
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
No question he should be in already.
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
How can you discuss McGwire without taking steroids into consideration?
OK if you take his numbers at face value he was better than my favorite player Harmon Killebrew.
That's just wrong, please ad 1,000 more "wrongs" to that sentence.
McGwire wasn't great, McGwire on steroids was great.
I didn't start that discussion. Someone else did.
When you talk about Mark McGwire as a whole, you are exactly right. This discussion was compartmentalizing his numbers without taking into consideration steroids.
That's all I was saying. Someone said - steroids or not, McGwire was no better than Dave Kingman. That is so wrong on many levels as I proved above.
Charge: McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman
Verdict: Thrown out for ridiculousness.
New charge: Steroids inflated Mark McGwire's numbers.
If you take McGwire's career averages up to 1991 and apply those averages to his career at bat totals this is what you get.
1986-1991 (Pre-steroids)
.244 average
2656 at bats
178 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 Slugging %
.839 OPS
1992-2001 (Obvious steroid use era)
.277 average
3531 at bats
405 home runs (1 home run per 8.71 at bats)
.663 slugging %
1.088 OPS
1986-2001 (factor all McGwire's at bats and utilize his averages from the Pre-Steroid era)
.244 average
6187 at bats
414 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 slugging %
.839 OPS
Dave Kingman career stats
.236 avg
6677 at bats
442 home runs (1 home run per 15.10 at bats
.478 slugging%
.780 OPS
** it should be pointed out that McGwire's batting average in the the 3 years prior to 1992 where steroid usage become blatant and obvious was as follows.
1989 .231 490 at bats 33 home runs
1990 .235 523 at bats 39 home runs
1991 .201 483 at bats 22 home runs
totals for this period
.223 average
1496 at bats
94 home runs (1 home run per 15.91 at bats
.448 slugging average
.795 OPS
Basically, McGwire was struggling to hit the ball in the major leagues without the aid of steroids. This is the guy you want in the hall of fame?
Comments
How about adding Joe Jackson to the list of players who should be in the HOF?
Why do you ignore defense where Rolen was an elite defender? How many pitchers in MLB history that are in the HOF were able to accomplish wins, shutouts, or perfect games without defenders behind them?
Jason
Personal Collection | Willie Woodburn | Legion of Doom
And then attendance fell from 1998 to 1999. Obviously, the cheating contest itself increased attendance while it was happening, but once it was over attendance fell back to almost exactly where it was expected to be had the cheating contest never happened. My apologies if this is smoe kind of religious belief that you accept on faith; I'm just pointing out that there are no actual facts that support the belief that baseball was "saved" by pharmaceuticals in 1998.
It "fell" by a total of 500k fans. For the entire season. 7/10ths of 1% dropoff. Talk about noise.
In 2001, when Bonds was chasing 73 home runs, attendance was 72 million (the highest ever), then dropped off by over 6% the following year.
I don't base my arguments on personal beliefs; the numbers back it up. Meanwhile, the folks who want to stick their heads in the sand and state that PED users didn't bring baseball back from the abyss are allowing emotion to dictate their statements. Your use of the term "cheating contest" is not helping your case.
Because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. You ignore a pitcher's batting prowess (or lack thereof), so relying on metrics that cannot be quantified. Replacing an elite defender with a league-average replacement has far less impact on a team than it does replace a bat in the same scenario.
I don't know if you really aren't understanding the simple statistical point I'm making, or if you're just being obtuse, but either way there doesn't seem to be any point to discussing it further.
I understand the point you were making just fine. You wanted to dismiss the two-year jump in attendance happening in a single year, coinciding with the HR chase, suggesting it would have happened anyway.
You have your beliefs. I have mine. Enjoy your day.
Anybody get flashbacks to the barber shop scene in Coming to America? "There they go again! Rocky Marciano, Rocky Marciano!"
This guy should be in.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Oliva was a tremendous hitter with horrible knees. :-(
We’ll have to agree to disagree because by this logic Ozzie Smith shouldn’t be in the HOF which is preposterous to me.
Jason
Personal Collection | Willie Woodburn | Legion of Doom
Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying or you wouldn't keep referring to the "two-year jump". And that's fine, I'm sure you have strengths other than statistics.
You have beliefs, I have numbers. You enjoy your day, too.
He shouldn't be in the hall of fame. But let's be honest, the only reason he is in the hall is because of his backflips which somehow enamored writers and gave lazy broadcasters a story to use every time he was on TV.
Anyone ever wonder this: There's only like 400 ballots and they have to be postmarked by a certain date and they seem to take forever to count???? One person with a spreadsheet could count those ballots. The process has never really seemed legit. I mean where are the writers sending the ballots from- Pluto or something??
Nevermind: not worth it.
I am sure the delay is intentional. Suspense, and all that nonsense.
The knock on Rolen is that he missed a TON of games. If we ignore his rookie year where he played 37 games, he averaged 127 games a year for the rest of his career. He missed 561 games over his 16 seasons (again, ignoring rookie year) - that's 3-1/2 full seasons. Adrian Beltre, on the other hand, averaged 143 games. Rolen played in 150 games just 5 times - Beltre did it 10 times (and 149 another year).
I have no intention of interjecting in the rolen's debate.
The more fun part of my collecting objective is speculating on future HOF inductees.
Sorry, I have no plans on adding rolen. I'd be happy to change in the future
Gold gloves only matter for three positions in my opinion. SS,CF,C
agree these days. hell, they can even give them the office space milton treatment and put them in the basement w/o their staplers. shoeless should be added first and foremost though.
That bolded statement is one of the silliest I've read on this board in years. Rolen is one of the greatest fielding third basemen OF ALL TIME.
It took 20 minutes to figure that out?
Looking at third baseman not in the hall of fame here is how I rank them.
Rolen, Nettles, Ramirez and Ventura are all almost identical. Ventura and Rolen are almost a mirror reflection of each other.
That Golden Days Era Ballot has some interesting names on it. Allen, Minoso, Freehan, and Oliva stand out the most to me. I wouldn't be upset if any of them got in. Allen and Oliva have already been talked about a good bit.
Minoso was a great player. 7 AS games, .298 avg., 130 career OPS+ with 8 seasons over 130. One of the first Cuban stars in the MLB.
Freehan might be the best catcher not in the hall, that no one ever talks about. He made 11 AS games including 10 in a row. He had 5 GGs. He was an above average hitter and was a great fielder at the toughest position on the field, and was one of the premier catchers from the mid 60s through the early 70s. He should atleast be talked about more than he is.
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Wins, shutouts, and perfect games are all very, very poor ways to determine's the value of a pitcher.
geez. i don't know where to even start to jump into this convo.
so, i won't.
good luck gentleman. i wanna see a clean match and protect yourselves at all times.
Joe Torre is in the HOF.
Totally agree on Freehan. He at least needs to enter the conversation. Maybe Ted Simmons getting in will help him get a second look.
You forgot David Wright who was better than a number of players on this list.
Only as a manager. He is not in the Hall of Fame as a player.
agreed. I actually think Wright should be higher than Rolen.
As a Yankee fan I like Nettles. Could win a game with his glove. Would I put him inside along Mike Schmidt.....no.
Food for thought here. Since the game has changed.....
Balls juicier. Elite power hitters are launching balls 120 MPH. Are fielders getting more errors? Getting to less balls?
Pitchers throw harder....are catchers getting more errors and passed balls?
Now starting pitchers are out at 5 innings and then we see maybe 2 to 5 more with different stuff and velocities. Are batting averages going down? In the old days when a pitcher might go nine on a regular basis were there more HR's
hit in the later innings when he was tired vs the first 7 innings?
After Beltre who are the next best 5 3rd basemen in the last 20 years?
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3rd baseman have been pretty weak over the last 20 years. There has only been a couple elite Hall of Fame types. The best 3rd baseman in the last 20 years is Nolan Arenado. He has 8 gold gloves in 8 years, 4 silver sluggers, and been in the top 8 in the MVP voting 5 times and he's only just turning 30. Right after him is Manny Machado. Manny has a definite chance at 500 home runs and 3,000 hits. He's nearly halfway there and is only 28. He's also been in the top 5 MVP voting 3 times and has 2 gold gloves.
A few of us have talked about him. GREAT catcher!
Regardless of thinking they deserve it or not myself, I do find it interesting that with the votes already supposedly tabulated, Bonds has one more total vote than Clemens does. I would have guessed that everyone voting for them felt it was a both-or-neither situation, all things considered.
Christina Kahrl is the only one who votes for Bonds and not Clemens. Her rationale last year:
But the ballot is also very clear in its instructions that those are not the only criteria with which to make informed choices. After spending more time in the past year looking at the questions surrounding Clemens' interactions with Mindy McCready, alleged and agreed-upon, starting from when she was a minor, and discussing the issue with other colleagues, I can only say that going forward, should he ultimately get elected, it will have to be without my support.
Source: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28510295/2020-baseball-hall-fame-did-our-voters-pick
Freehan is absolutely a HOFer and should have been in a long time ago.
Hard to answer, because it is hard to determine who qualifies. Chipper Jones played 11 seasons in the last 20 years. If we were to list the next five not currently eligible for induction, with the understanding that this list will look very different as some of the younger third basemen get to full career length, a list could be something like this:
Longoria
Wright
Donaldson
Arenado
Machado
I wholeheartedly hut respectfully disagree. If you don't consider steroids...
Mark McGwire is number 10 all time in ops. Ops is one of the top statistical measurements for a hitter. He is just ahead of a few mediocre players named Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Stan Musial.
Mark McGwire was one of the most feared hitters of all time and actually changed the game in certain ways. When Mark McGwire came to the plate he was must-see TV for a number of years.
If that's not Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what it is.
Shane
No question he should be in already.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
McGwire is Dave Kingman without the steroids.
The must see TV you mentioned was all orchestrated by MLB to increase attendance after losing much of their audience post strike and the NBA and NFL's popularity. Their attempt was to manufacture the breaking of one of the most revered MLB records...Roger Maris's 61. I can agree that it did succeed in entertainment value but it was about as real as pro wrestling.
Dave Kingman? That is just your impression. Look at just the numbers. Kingman's OPS was .780 which make him rank 639th all time right up there with good 'ole Wally Moses, Troy O' Leary, and Russ Wrighstone. He almost had as good of a career OPS as Kevin Seitzer.
Mark McGwire (to repeat once more) was 10th all time and had a Better OPS than Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, and even Albert freakin' Pujols.
I realize that OPS doesn't tell the whole story but it is a very good offensive indicator to know the impact a player had. Kingman's BEST year did not meet McGwire's average.
Let's look at War. War is probably the best measurement of an all around player. McGwire is 165th with 62.2. Not all time great but not shabby either. McGwire played 16 seasons. WAR is a cumulative stat. Consider that McGwire's WAR (16 seasons) is better than Harmon Killebrew (22 seasons), Ichiro (19 seasons), Mike Piazza (16 seasons), Yogi Berra (16 seasons), Vladimir Guerrero (16 seasons). I could go on.
By the way.... Kingman's WAR is 17.3. Baseball Reference only lists the top 1,000. You won't find Kingman on the list. Ranked number 1,000 you will see Vic Wertz at 26.9. Kingman might not even be top 1,300.
Not considering steroids, believing that Mark McGwire doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame is shallow thinking in my book. You have been listening to too many media types who make the same mistake.
I have used what old timers call logic and common sense, which is sorely lacking today.
Your witness..... Or maybe I should say.... Case dismissed.
Shane
His OPS fell to 103 in 1991 before he started doing steroids. Before that, he had one year with a SLG over .500.
Kingman was better.
McGwire admitted to doing steroids.
Case overturned on appeal.
We are not arguing about steroids. My argument is based on stats alone not factoring in steroids. I have said this and others in this thread have said this. People on the other side of this argument in this thread have stated something to this effect...."It doesn't matter if he used steroids or not....his numbers were not good enough. He was Dave Kingman".
Oh, contraire!
Whether he should be in or not based on steroids is a TOTALLY different discussion.
Plus, his numbers fell in 1991 because he was injured.
Shane
How can you discuss McGwire without taking steroids into consideration?
OK if you take his numbers at face value he was better than my favorite player Harmon Killebrew.
That's just wrong, please ad 1,000 more "wrongs" to that sentence.
McGwire wasn't great, McGwire on steroids was great.
I didn't start that discussion. Someone else did.
When you talk about Mark McGwire as a whole, you are exactly right. This discussion was compartmentalizing his numbers without taking into consideration steroids.
That's all I was saying. Someone said - steroids or not, McGwire was no better than Dave Kingman. That is so wrong on many levels as I proved above.
Charge: McGwire (on steroids) is no better than Dave Kingman
Verdict: Thrown out for ridiculousness.
New charge: Steroids inflated Mark McGwire's numbers.
Plea from McGwire: not guilty
Verdict: guilty
Sentencing: No HOF for McGwire
Shane
If you take McGwire's career averages up to 1991 and apply those averages to his career at bat totals this is what you get.
1986-1991 (Pre-steroids)
.244 average
2656 at bats
178 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 Slugging %
.839 OPS
1992-2001 (Obvious steroid use era)
.277 average
3531 at bats
405 home runs (1 home run per 8.71 at bats)
.663 slugging %
1.088 OPS
1986-2001 (factor all McGwire's at bats and utilize his averages from the Pre-Steroid era)
.244 average
6187 at bats
414 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 slugging %
.839 OPS
Dave Kingman career stats
.236 avg
6677 at bats
442 home runs (1 home run per 15.10 at bats
.478 slugging%
.780 OPS
** it should be pointed out that McGwire's batting average in the the 3 years prior to 1992 where steroid usage become blatant and obvious was as follows.
1989 .231 490 at bats 33 home runs
1990 .235 523 at bats 39 home runs
1991 .201 483 at bats 22 home runs
totals for this period
.223 average
1496 at bats
94 home runs (1 home run per 15.91 at bats
.448 slugging average
.795 OPS
Basically, McGwire was struggling to hit the ball in the major leagues without the aid of steroids. This is the guy you want in the hall of fame?