Buying PQ MS Gold
scotty4449
Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭
Nearly all of the gold I currently own has been AU stuff near spot, but I am starting to eye top quality stuff. What do people look for in PQ mint state gold (65-66)? I have heard people talk about copper spots, are there other things one should look out for when buying quality gold that doesn't apply to silver/copper? Thanks in advance!
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CAC stickers.
What I would do first is buy a book. If it’s one thing I’ve learned from my pursuit of gold dollars is each year/mint has its own standards. Also the books tend to tell you about how the TPGs handle the grading. The ones I’ve read have been up front about what’s been the trend in gradeflation and resubmissions.
But if I was to offer any thoughts it would be the obvious: strike, booming luster, and great eye appeal.
I like the book idea, do you have an suggestions? I am mainly looking at the $2 1/2, $5, and $10 Indian along with St. Gaudens.
I have a few older ones on those series but they are a bit lean. But you can’t go wrong with anything David Akers, IMO, though they will be a bit older. Also look at Mike Fuljenz. I’m sure people will bring up others.
Here's an opinion for you.
https://coinweek.com/us-coins/classic-us-gold-coins-whats-hot-and-whats-not-2021-edition/
This might be a dumb question, but just read the Hot or Not article and for Buyers looking to Buy in 2021, shouldn't we be looking for what's NOT hot so we build our collections at a good price vs. buying what's Hot at a premium?
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
You could take that chance.
As with anything just shake the dice and buy classic commens!
Stick with your AU near spot that’s a lot smarter of an investment. I have had copper spot show up on newer minted coins from the mint. My older stuff hasn’t developed spots.
They are looking for pieces with super cartwheel luster, blazers. Coins that are PQ. Not some dull cruddy toner. Copper spots a no go. In TTR sight unseen days dealers send the spotted there. One guy setup near me drinking a beer said “Celebrating ha ha that first rascal returned it but second try by auction house that copper spotted piece of trash took, thank gosh, finally got it dumped off and even made money on it (lots of laughing).”
The OP said he didn't like copper spots. JA will sticker gold with copper spots.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If you are 'collecting', then buy the one's that please you and are affordable. If you are looking for future profit, buy high grade slabbed coins. Either way, when collecting gold, first invest in the books. Cheers, RickO
And just saying CAC stickers doesnt answer OP's question
it partially answers it. CAC gold always sells for a premium. So, in terms of value, CAC is an answer. In terms of eye appeal and desirability, NONE of you can answer that because it is in the eyes of the OP himself.
Actually, the OP didn't say that. The OP said he "heard" people talk about copper spots. He never said how he personally felt about them.
Buy what you like. Enjoy it. Ignore everyone else.
There are people on this forum who love toned gold. There are people on this forum who hate toned gold. There are people on this forum who only buy CAC. There are people on this forum who hate CAC. There are people who buy based on the plastic. There are people who trust their eyes not the plastic.
NO ONE on this forum has a crystal ball. People paid huge premiums for "PQ" Saints 30 years ago only to find that 65 Saints were more common than they thought and probably only got their money back because gold itself went from $300 to $2000 over that time frame.
If you don't trust your eyes, let PCGS and CAC provide guidance. But not all 66 Saints are created equal and not all 66 CAC Saints will appeal to everyone, especially with the premium built in.
Buy what you like. Enjoy it. Ignore the noise.
CAC gold in the 65/66 range will get very expensive in the coins you have listed. A $5 Indian in 65 is a high priced coin. If you have an unlimited budget that would work. You will find a lot of really nice 64/64+ coins in those series. If you like copper spots then don't worry about them. I don't like green spots on my gold so I avoid that.
For $2.5 you could get common year 65's but expect to pay a premium for the really nice CAC ones.
For the $5 64+ is good for commons. The prices jump at 65.
For the $10 Saint Gaudens you can find some really nice 64+ and 65 commons but other dates get very expensive fast.
The $20 Saint Gaudens can be the series you go for 65/66 commons. Expect a premium for the really nice ones. Take you time here. There are a lot of ugly, common, melt type Saints out there.
If you want to learn about earlier gold Doug Winter has many excellent books. There is also a great Q David Bowers book for Gold Eagles (color pictures). There are also books for the other series you mentioned (older and black and white). You need to decide if you want commons or better date coins. Good luck. Over the last few years I have done exactly what you are planning. The run up in gold has affected pricing. If you search out really nice coins expect to pay more and don't expect to make money on quick flips.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I’ve seen a couple of posts in this thread which appeared to be using “PQ” synonymously with high grade.
In case that was the thought, typically “PQ” is used to describe premium quality/extra nice coins for the assigned grade. And that’s for any grade. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with a high grade coin, which can be of premium quality, inferior quality or somewhere in between.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Someone should post a P01 so we can argue over whether it is PQ or not...
Why not? For example, some are problem-free, while others, scratched up and/or cleaned, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Learn to grade conservatively. Then apply that knowledge to your purchases. Don't rely on someone else's opinion.
I don't mind copper spots and streaks on coins, to me they scream originality. Natural toning on gold also tends to come out better compared to toning on silver and copper.
I dont like copper spots on my gold coins, but I have learned that they are sometimes a marker for coins that have not been messed with. It also depends on the location of the copper spots. I can be more tolerant of a red dot that is hidden in the devices, but I hate them in the fields when they are all the only thing your eye is drawn to. I dont have an example to show you. I will show you a few I can tolerate....
Here is an example of one of mine with copper spots that are not too obvious. PCGS and CAC, graded 66
Here is another example of a VERY small copper spot on one. NGC graded 65* and CAC
I'm not saying that all P01 are equal. But, is a low-ball coin more PQ if it is more lowball? (Damage free, of course.) And it is rather hard to undestand what "premium quality" means for a coin that is at the lowest end of the spectrum. Is a PQ P01 really an undergraded FR02?
The OP wants to know about PQ coins in 65/66 grades. That will take some very deep pockets in the 4 series that were listed.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
In my opinion, “lowball” considerations should have nothing to do with whether a coin is deemed to be premium quality. Even if some collectors might not prefer premium quality for lowball coins, that’s a separate matter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This. Too often gold is mishandled to remove copper spots. Copper spots are one indicator that a gold coin has had limited intentional human intervention. Most classic US gold pieces have been messed with, just go through a major auction lot viewing or many tables of dealers (not all), and you can't help but witness the destruction that has occurred on what was once great gold coins. I will take copper spots every day...........
Best, SH
Maybe. But it's not clear to me that PQ for a low-ball shouldn't mean that it is at the low end of P01 rather than the high end. After all, if you are paying a premium to have a low-ball coin, you want it lower not higher. P01 might be a bad example since it can't go lower. But if you are AG or FR in a low-ball series, PQ should apply to the coin that might downgrade on resubmission, shouldn't it? Because then the value goes up!
If you are going to collect gold in MS-65 and 66, you had best have a lot money be prepared to ignore all of the better dates unless you are mega wealthy. Many of the rarer gold issues don't exist in those grades.
Thanks for the help, there is a lot of great info here. I wish I could hit a show and look at a bunch of quality gold in hand. I did that a lot with copper/silver pre covid days and now, even when looking at pictures, I feel like I have a good idea what's going on with a coin. I just don't have that same feeling with gold.
There is and will continue to be plenty to look at and buy. So (even though I realize that you didn’t ask for my advice) I suggest taking your time, enjoying the search and waiting until you feel knowledgeable and comfortable in this area.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe what he actually said is that some people look for them as a sign of quality. My point was simply that if you don't know what to look for in expensive gold, I would stick to stickered coins. That doesn't mean that just because a coin has a sticker, one is obligated to buy it even if it doesn't suit their own eye.
Wow i dont even see a copper spot on the lower coin! Both coins are very nice
I would agree, both of these coins look fantastic to me! In general I seem to like the darker colored gold coins over the lighter colored coins. Are these coins darker due to a uniform toning that develops over the years, or is there something else goin on?
Thanks for the advice Mark, I am thinking that will be my course of action.
Look below the jaw on the upper neck. Its really tiny in the images, even smaller in person since the coins are about the size of a dime and the images blows them up to the size of a coffee cup!
I think that the darker color is a combination of long term storage with the alloy mix. Gold does not really tone very much, that is how it looks coming out of the ground even. The other compounds in it I believe are mostly responsible for the toning and coloration. If I remember correctly, one of the books I have read on gold coins(Fuljenz I think) talks about how certain years are more apt to have copper spots and other colors if they are original. Personally, I like to try and find ones with green toning!
There are ways to judge the level of originality without having to buy spotted coins. It’s also easy to just avoid them.
This went down a rabbit hole quick.
I would warn you about paying large sums of money for common coins, but then again, many of the common issues are pretty boring below very choice gem to superb gem. CAC stickers are desirable, but don't get in a bidding war for a "sticker rarity."
@Rayho is spot on. Work with Doug Winter if you want to build a nice gold collection. Also, rather than working on a set of MS66-MS67 common date $2.5/$5 libs for instance, you might be able to pool those funds together for a pleasing early federal example (although it won't be MS65 or higher). If you do the more common coins, consider a Lib/Indian high grade type set.
I am most certainly looking into completing a higher grade type set. I think I will lower my standards at first, I am noticing a big jump in price between 64+ and 65.
Do gold coins suffer from hazy surfaces? In the pic below it seems like the surface of this 64+ has a haziness to it, although it could be just a beat up holder.
Haze like that is often putty.
I'd be more worried about haze, hairlines, and other evidence of human intervention. Copper spots are part of the coin, if one does not like them, don't buy a coin with them. But a classic gold coin without them, then you have to look for the other features of 'mishandling'........... 'specially if there is no green bean. JA is unbelievably, mind numbingly, picky about gold.
Best, SH
Agreed - above a certain price point I only want gold with CAC stickers. Its not so important to me on a $600 quarter eagle.
Lots of good responses here. For me, I like luster bomb gold MS coins, especially on Saints.
I've seen the CAC premiums on the MS-66 and higher Saints, wondering how long can they hold up on the common dates like the 1924 or 1928? Doesn't seem to be as large a premium percentage on the CAC MS-64 or 65 Saints.
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I buy coins that appear to be solid for the grade and that talk to me. A sticker is a bonus...
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