Serious crossover question about some really nice coins...

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 1:06PM

I'm sending in some coins for crossover from NGC holders and Stacks is going to also send in a few for me that I agreed to sell there...

These are things like some ultra nice 1990's MS67 6FS nickels, an MS68 1943 penny and a good handful of others that are all likely to sell for a couple grand each and much more.
I have absolutely no doubt about most of them crossing but....

My question is: If PCGS believes any of them could grade even higher for coins of that caliber will they notify me?!
In my head it would make sense since PCGS would stand to make that much more from the higher grades, but based on the PCGS explanation it doesn't sound like they would unless I simply requested a re-grade rather than a crossover.

Most especially I'm curious for my MS68 1943 Penny. I've seen one other in real life more than a handful of years ago and compared to the highest res photos at Heritage I believe that mine is simply freaking spectacular (the fields are so much nicer and smoother with insane swirly luster) and has the slight chance of being the epic MS68+!
Those here who can answer my question certainly understand that massive auction price difference!

The same goes for a few of my FS Nickels (I'll post a few of them for everyone during this week).

Here's the 1943...I wouldn't leave you hanging like that lol! Thanks everyone who might know the answer!!!
These are basically snapshots but I'm telling you this thing is a mind melter.

Next to the rim around the "E" in one you can see some of an absolute mirror in areas. The bottom of the "C" in cent, that's a tiny scratch on the holder.

MFeld · January 7, 2021 1:14PM

If you submit a coin for crossover and PCGS is of the opinion that it deserves to cross at a higher grade, they will cross it into a higher grade holder. I don't think there's any additional notification, beyond the typical crossover results.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 1:16PM

@MFeld said:
If you submit a coin for crossover and PCGS is of the opinion that it deserves to cross at a higher grade, they will cross it into a higher grade holder. I don't think there's any additional notification, beyond the typical crossover results.

Woohoo!!!!

MFeld · January 7, 2021 1:18PM

@Kurisu said:

@MFeld said:
If you submit a coin for crossover and PCGS is of the opinion that it deserves to cross at a higher grade, they will cross it into a higher grade holder. I don't think there's any additional notification, beyond the typical crossover results.

Woohoo!!!!

Before you get too excited - whoops, too late for that - such upgrades occur extremely infrequently. Best of luck.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 1:21PM

@MFeld said:

@Kurisu said:

@MFeld said:
If you submit a coin for crossover and PCGS is of the opinion that it deserves to cross at a higher grade, they will cross it into a higher grade holder. I don't think there's any additional notification, beyond the typical crossover results.

Woohoo!!!!

Before you get too excited - whoops, too late for that - such upgrades occur extremely infrequently. Best of luck.

It's ok...as I often repeat...I've spent decades often being accused of being overly positive about things

And thank you kindly!

derryb · January 7, 2021 1:26PM

@MFeld said:

Before you get too excited - whoops, too late for that - such upgrades occur extremely infrequently. Best of luck.

Particularly when an original high grade is involved. My experience has been the lower the original grade the greater the odds for a bump up.

While the fields do look great, I don't see a PCGS 69 or 68 based on your pics. I hope you can prove me wrong. Let us all know the results. Good luck.

WAYNEAS · January 7, 2021 1:34PM

Please let us know how it crosses. It is a gorgeous "steely".

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 1:49PM

@WAYNEAS said:
Please let us know how it crosses. It is a gorgeous "steely".

Thank you!!! I will for sure...

coinbuf · January 7, 2021 1:53PM

Hmmm looking for upgrades from NGC to PCGS, that seems to go contrary to the belief that I hear from many here that PCGS is the more conservative grading company. I think crossovers are a waste of money but best of luck to you.

OldIndianNutKase · January 7, 2021 2:01PM

Good Luck with that gorgeous 1943 cent. please post the grade it crosses at.

My experience with PCGS is that on a crossover they reduce the grade by one point on top pop items. I submitted an 1870 IHC proof cent in PR67 RB CAM and it came back in a 66 holder; and a 1903 IHC PR67RB* and it came back in a 66 holder. I think either coin should grade as a 67, but it may take several submissions........to play the game.

OINK

abcde12345 · January 7, 2021 2:08PM

Is there an MS69 steel cent graded? Will your steel cent auction for more in a PCGS slab VS an NGC slab?
Either way, beautiful coin. These are delicate though so hanging on to it would scare me as it might 'turn' down the road.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 2:18PM

@abcde12345 said:
Is there an MS69 steel cent graded? Will your steel cent auction for more in a PCGS slab VS an NGC slab?
Either way, beautiful coin. These are delicate though so hanging on to it would scare me as it might 'turn' down the road.

There are no MS69 but there are 3 MS68+
The difference between an NGC or PCGS holder if you look at a place like Heritage Auctions it's about the difference of double the price...but when you look at MS68 and MS68+ auction sold prices it's the difference between a few grand and over 30 grand!

oih82w8 · January 7, 2021 2:42PM

If you don't want to accept a downgrade, you NEED to specify a minimum grade you will accept. If it does not meet PCGS's criteria for your minimum grade, it won't cross and it will remain in its submitted holder.

MFeld · January 7, 2021 2:47PM

@oih82w8 said:
If you don't want to accept a downgrade, you NEED to specify a minimum grade you will accept. If it does not meet PCGS's criteria for your minimum grade, it won't cross and it will remain in its submitted holder.

Isn’t the submission process set up to default to cross at the same same grade? And you need to take the extra step of choosing the cross at a lower minimum grade option if you want that?

oih82w8 · January 7, 2021 2:49PM

From my understanding, the submitter needs to specify a minimum grade or it falls under ANY grade.

WaterSport · January 7, 2021 2:54PM

I guess I am always leary of a NGC holder crossing at PCGS - especially anything higher than MS 65. So, I would never do it, But its your coin and good luck.

WS

MetroD · January 7, 2021 3:00PM

@MFeld said:
Isn’t the submission process set up to default to cross at the same same grade? And you need to take the extra step of choosing the cross at a lower minimum grade option if you want that?

@oih82w8 said:
From my understanding, the submitter needs to specify a minimum grade or it falls under ANY grade.

Submission Guidelines; 5. Service Type; Crossover
"For a coin previously graded (currently encapsulated) by another grading service. PCGS will holder the coin only if it meets or exceeds your specific request notated in the “MinimumGrade” column on the front of the form. Grading fees will apply whether the coins crosses or not. Coins that do cross will also be charged a Guarantee Premium* based on the value of the coin. Please specify one of the options below in the “Minimum Grade” column on the front of the form. If you leave this area blank, PCGS will assume the minimum grade is the grade currently on the holder.
Link: https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usacoin.pdf?v=2021

MFeld · January 7, 2021 3:04PM

@MetroD said:

@MFeld said:
Isn’t the submission process set up to default to cross at the same same grade? And you need to take the extra step of choosing the cross at a lower minimum grade option if you want that?

@oih82w8 said:
From my understanding, the submitter needs to specify a minimum grade or it falls under ANY grade.

Submission Guidelines; 5. Service Type; Crossover
"For a coin previously graded (currently encapsulated) by another grading service. PCGS will holder the coin only if it meets or exceeds your specific request notated in the “MinimumGrade” column on the front of the form. Grading fees will apply whether the coins crosses or not. Coins that do cross will also be charged a Guarantee Premium* based on the value of the coin. Please specify one of the options below in the “Minimum Grade” column on the front of the form. If you leave this area blank, PCGS will assume the minimum grade is the grade currently on the holder.
Link: https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usacoin.pdf?v=2021

Thank you.

Catbert · January 7, 2021 3:15PM

@Kurisu - your comment of "In my head it would make sense since PCGS would stand to make that much more from the higher grades...." does not compute in my head. How does PCGS make more money by grading a coin higher?

1) They have a higher risk of losing money if they assign a higher grade (with an in-holder cross) if there is a hidden flaw due to not being able to see the whole coin due to the holder interfering with a complete view. This is due to their grading guarantee.

2) Also, while grading involves a market valuation, they are in the grading business, not the coin selling business.

coinbuf · January 7, 2021 3:31PM

@Kurisu said:

@abcde12345 said:
Is there an MS69 steel cent graded? Will your steel cent auction for more in a PCGS slab VS an NGC slab?
Either way, beautiful coin. These are delicate though so hanging on to it would scare me as it might 'turn' down the road.

There are no MS69 but there are 3 MS68+
The difference between an NGC or PCGS holder if you look at a place like Heritage Auctions it's about the difference of double the price...but when you look at MS68 and MS68+ auction sold prices it's the difference between a few grand and over 30 grand!

Where did you find any auction data for NGC at the MS68 level selling on Heritage? I just searched the PCGS auction prices and there is no NGC MS68 crossing the auction blocks as far back as 2012. Its is certainly possible that the PCGS search missed one so just curious as I do not recall seeing one on Heritage either.

Batman23 · January 7, 2021 4:03PM

@Catbert said:
@Kurisu - your comment of "In my head it would make sense since PCGS would stand to make that much more from the higher grades...." does not compute in my head. How does PCGS make more money by grading a coin higher?

"Coins that do cross will also be charged a Guarantee Premium* "

This "premium" is 1% of the PCGS retail value.

1943 steel in 67+ is $375 or an extra $3.75 fee. In 68 is $2,250 or an extra $22.50 fee. If it graded 69 that fee would likely be hundreds.

Catbert · January 7, 2021 4:12PM

Great point and you're right @Batman23 but the way he phrased it, I came away with a different interpretation.

CoinPhysicist · January 7, 2021 4:27PM

A good general rule seems to be that for high grades, it’s difficult to even cross over a the same grade, let alone something higher. For lower grades, it seems to be less hard.

There’s a reason why for many coins, a pcgs 68 is rarer and more expensive than an ngc 68. This comes from someone who has no problem with coins in either holder. I’m equal opportunity. It’s just an observation. With that in mind, I would say your coin might cross over at 68. I think it’s more likely to not cross at all than it is to upgrade.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 5:13PM

@coinbuf said:

@Kurisu said:

@abcde12345 said:
Is there an MS69 steel cent graded? Will your steel cent auction for more in a PCGS slab VS an NGC slab?
Either way, beautiful coin. These are delicate though so hanging on to it would scare me as it might 'turn' down the road.

There are no MS69 but there are 3 MS68+
The difference between an NGC or PCGS holder if you look at a place like Heritage Auctions it's about the difference of double the price...but when you look at MS68 and MS68+ auction sold prices it's the difference between a few grand and over 30 grand!

Where did you find any auction data for NGC at the MS68 level selling on Heritage? I just searched the PCGS auction prices and there is no NGC MS68 crossing the auction blocks as far back as 2012. Its is certainly possible that the PCGS search missed one so just curious as I do not recall seeing one on Heritage either.

I believe I was also looking at sold prices at a couple other sites, I don't remember exactly. I think I did see a couple sales for NGC on Heritage... I do remember seeing the obvious difference in prices for that coin in NGC vs. PCGS holders as well as speaking to the rep at Stacks about it.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 5:16PM

@CoinPhysicist said:
A good general rule seems to be that for high grades, it’s difficult to even cross over a the same grade, let alone something higher. For lower grades, it seems to be less hard.

There’s a reason why for many coins, a pcgs 68 is rarer and more expensive than an ngc 68. This comes from someone who has no problem with coins in either holder. I’m equal opportunity. It’s just an observation. With that in mind, I would say your coin might cross over at 68. I think it’s more likely to not cross at all than it is to upgrade.

Sometimes... I/We do things because they're more difficult

P0CKETCHANGE · January 7, 2021 6:02PM

I suggest you take a look at other steelies on CoinFacts and make an honest comparison and assessment to your example. As others have said, you would be well served to specify a minimum grade that is acceptable for the cross, otherwise they will crack it and put it in a lower grade by default.

For what it's worth, here is mine which is graded PCGS MS66:

P0CKETCHANGE · January 7, 2021 6:09PM

@Kurisu said:
...And that penny is a total mess compared to mine No really lol!

It certainly has some character!

MFeld · January 7, 2021 6:17PM

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I suggest you take a look at other steelies on CoinFacts and make an honest comparison and assessment to your example. As others have said, you would be well served to specify a minimum grade that is acceptable for the cross, otherwise they will crack it and put it in a lower grade by default.

For what it's worth, here is mine which is graded PCGS MS66:

Based on what was posted earlier (copied below), they will not “crack it and put it in a lower grade by default” if the submitter fails to specify a minimum grade.

Submission Guidelines; 5. Service Type; Crossover
"For a coin previously graded (currently encapsulated) by another grading service. PCGS will holder the coin only if it meets or exceeds your specific request notated in the “MinimumGrade” column on the front of the form. Grading fees will apply whether the coins crosses or not. Coins that do cross will also be charged a Guarantee Premium* based on the value of the coin. Please specify one of the options below in the “Minimum Grade” column on the front of the form. If you leave this area blank, PCGS will assume the minimum grade is the grade currently on the holder.
Link: https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usacoin.pdf?v=2021

P0CKETCHANGE · January 7, 2021 6:20PM

@MFeld said:
Based on what was posted earlier (copied below), they will not “crack it and put it in a lower grade by default” if the submitter fails to specify a minimum grade.

Submission Guidelines; 5. Service Type; Crossover
"For a coin previously graded (currently encapsulated) by another grading service. PCGS will holder the coin only if it meets or exceeds your specific request notated in the “MinimumGrade” column on the front of the form. Grading fees will apply whether the coins crosses or not. Coins that do cross will also be charged a Guarantee Premium* based on the value of the coin. Please specify one of the options below in the “Minimum Grade” column on the front of the form. If you leave this area blank, PCGS will assume the minimum grade is the grade currently on the holder.
Link: https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usacoin.pdf?v=2021

Thanks for the correction Mark. I'd thought they assumed no minimum grade if none was specified, so it is good to know they'll use the grade on the holder as the baseline.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 6:29PM

Darn it.... man so many times I go to edit and my post disappears lol!
I can't retype it exactly argh...

I mentioned it was just snapshots from my phone so not nearly as high res as some would like and the close up photo is just a cropped image, so even lower res.
I also posted a video fairly recently showing this coin and some other grades on my YT channel. I also show my own MS66 as well....

And made gentle fun of Pocketchange's coin

bolivarshagnasty · January 7, 2021 6:48PM

Newbie exuberance. I see some tuition in your future. We’ve all been there.

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 6:50PM

@bolivarshagnasty said:
Newbie exuberance. I see some tuition in your future. We’ve all been there.

Didn't know I could be a newbie at 40+ years of collecting lol! Ok, I am a newbie at my own crossovers!
I'll send you the video...HD, in motion and up close... then tell me what you think

scotty4449 · January 7, 2021 7:16PM

I like it! I think it could cross at a 68. It looks better than my 68. 68+, maybe not so much, but you never know.

Coinscratch · January 7, 2021 7:23PM

Given the what seems to be common knowledge between the first and second grading companies :-)
I would crack it out and send it to them raw to avoid any negative assumptions made by the PCGS team while viewing the coin through the current plastic.

That is if you’re truly confident in your assessment and you don’t mind rolling the bones.

Beautiful coin good luck!

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 7:25PM

@CoinscratchFever said:
Given the what seems to be common knowledge between the first and second grading companies :-)
I would crack it out and send it to them raw to avoid any negative assumptions made by the PCGS team while viewing the coin through the current plastic.

That is if you’re truly confident in your assessment and you don’t mind rolling the bones.

Beautiful coin good luck!

I'd have physical anxiety about cracking it out lol!!!
I'm thinking I'm going to have Stack's send in this one for me too

scotty4449 · January 7, 2021 7:40PM

Here is my steel cent for comparison. Seems like mine has more hits. Also, there is a tiny spot on the shoulder that you can't really see in the true view, but it drives me nuts. I might have to replace with a nice 1943-s someday...

Kurisu · January 7, 2021 7:45PM

@scotty4449 said:
Here is my steel cent for comparison. Seems like mine has more hits. Also, there is a tiny spot on the shoulder that you can't really see in the true view, but it drives me nuts. I might have to replace with a nice 1943-s someday...

That is really beautiful though!!! Seeing the mint mark makes me want to get the other mints in MS68.....and then sell them later too lol!
I got a crazy deal on mine

ricko · January 8, 2021 7:35AM

I really need to get my rolls of '43 cents out and look at them. Had no idea the high grades were going for such prices. Might have some hidden treasures in those rolls. Cheers, RickO

SeattleSlammer · January 8, 2021 9:06AM

Good luck — but PCGS also seems rough on 67 vs 68 Steelies .... more likely to give a 67+ even on near flawless examples that would seem to merit 68 or better.

Kurisu · January 8, 2021 2:45PM

So my final decision is that I'm having Stack's do this one for me...I'm guessing that not only will the turn around time be way quicker for them than for me but also they will deal with getting a CAC on there too if all goes well...Wish me luck!!!
I will definitely post what happens...I'm sure it's going to be a few months.
Thanks for all the feedback, it was genuinely helpful

Coinscratch · January 8, 2021 2:57PM

Good luck😎

keets · January 8, 2021 3:40PM

when crossing from NGC to PCGS, here is what my own experiences have taught me.

the important thing isn't what NGC has graded the coin, what is most important is what I assess the coin's grade to be. that will be the critical in figuring what happens. I submit to either same grade or "any" when I cross and am always really critical of myself. most of my cross-overs are Medals and Exonumia which is what the following is based on.
--- I have never had PCGS upgrade.
--- my same grade cross success is around 80%.
--- if/when I send in my DNC's and stipulate "any" the tendency is almost 100% one-point lower.
--- the rare DNC's that PCGS won't cross is due to a problem they have identified.

for the coins you're submitting, I would say the chances are as follows:
--- upgrade, close to 0% chance.
--- same grade, about 50% chance.
--- one point lower, about 50% chance.

MFeld · January 8, 2021 3:46PM

@keets said:
when crossing from NGC to PCGS, here is what my own experiences have taught me.

the important thing isn't what NGC has graded the coin, what is most important is what I assess the coin's grade to be. that will be the critical in figuring what happens. I submit to either same grade or "any" when I cross and am always really critical of myself. most of my cross-overs are Medals and Exonumia which is what the following is based on.
--- I have never had PCGS upgrade.
--- my same grade cross success is around 80%.
--- if/when I send in my DNC's and stipulate "any" the tendency is almost 100% one-point lower.
--- the rare DNC's that PCGS won't cross is due to a problem they have identified.

for the coins you're submitting, I would say the chances are as follows:
--- upgrade, close to 0% chance.
--- same grade, about 50% chance.
--- one point lower, about 50% chance.

If he’s not willing to cross at a lower grade - and I hope he isn’t - the chances of one point lower are about 0%.

keets · January 8, 2021 3:59PM

Mark, those are "absolute" numbers based on my experience of standard US coins. just from the image and what I have seen with NGC graded coins and PCGS' evaluation of them, the OP should just sell the Cent as is. HRH gave good advice about this sort of thing during a F.U.N luncheon many years ago. to wit: if you want a 1943 Cent in a PCGS holder, you should buy one already in that holder instead of trying to cross or crack to get it.

MFeld · January 8, 2021 4:04PM

@keets said:
Mark, those are "absolute" numbers based on my experience of standard US coins. just from the image and what I have seen with NGC graded coins and PCGS' evaluation of them, the OP should just sell the Cent as is. HRH gave good advice about this sort of thing during a F.U.N luncheon many years ago. to wit: if you want a 1943 Cent in a PCGS holder, you should buy one already in that holder instead of trying to cross or crack to get it.

I usually tell people the same thing if ultimately, they want a coin in a different holder.

Kurisu · January 8, 2021 4:05PM

@MFeld said:

@keets said:
when crossing from NGC to PCGS, here is what my own experiences have taught me.

the important thing isn't what NGC has graded the coin, what is most important is what I assess the coin's grade to be. that will be the critical in figuring what happens. I submit to either same grade or "any" when I cross and am always really critical of myself. most of my cross-overs are Medals and Exonumia which is what the following is based on.
--- I have never had PCGS upgrade.
--- my same grade cross success is around 80%.
--- if/when I send in my DNC's and stipulate "any" the tendency is almost 100% one-point lower.
--- the rare DNC's that PCGS won't cross is due to a problem they have identified.

for the coins you're submitting, I would say the chances are as follows:
--- upgrade, close to 0% chance.
--- same grade, about 50% chance.
--- one point lower, about 50% chance.

If he’s not willing to cross at a lower grade - and I hope he isn’t - the chances of one point lower are about 0%.

Confirmed I am not willing to cross at a lower grade.
If PCGS thinks it's lower it stays in the holder. I'm still paying for it, I'm just having Stacks do it because I agreed to put it up for auction and they will deduct the crossover cost that I would've been paying anyway.

And no, I'm not interested in owning it in a different slab...it's about maxing out the potential sale price.
I originally got it for about a grand

keets · January 8, 2021 4:09PM

some might be confused to see me post that right after a post outlining my cross-over attempts. the thing with what I'm submitting is that the overwhelming majority of that material is in NGC holders, I prefer the PCGS capsule and want the TrueView images. surprisingly, that 1943 Steel Cent has over 70 graded MS68 by PCGS, so it should be obtainable and maybe it could really cross.

daltex · January 8, 2021 4:36PM

@Kurisu said:
Darn it.... man so many times I go to edit and my post disappears lol!
I can't retype it exactly argh...

I mentioned it was just snapshots from my phone so not nearly as high res as some would like and the close up photo is just a cropped image, so even lower res.
I also posted a video fairly recently showing this coin and some other grades on my YT channel. I also show my own MS66 as well....

And made gentle fun of Pocketchange's coin

You might consider writing your posts in another app and then copy/paste. At least you'd still have it if it disappeared.

Cougar1978 · January 8, 2021 7:55PM

To avoid downgrade - Just specify a minimum grade on form. For the coins that did not make my specified grade I would expense the grading fees. In ones that did the grading fee cost added to inventory cost of that coin as this benefits a future period (when it sells). Shipping and indirect fees expensed.

Coinscratch · January 8, 2021 8:40PM

Again, and with all that being said (which I too appreciate) if you truly believe it has a chance then go for it.
The problem that I see is the reverse and the what you called almost mirrored portion. That could be seen as a flaw and that coupled with the experiences listed would give me pause.
Decisions decisions, the guy on my left shoulder says "Crack it and submit it" but the guy on the right says "Proceed with caution"

Kurisu · January 8, 2021 8:45PM

@CoinscratchFever said:
Again, and with all that being said (which I too appreciate) if you truly believe it has a chance then go for it.
The problem that I see is the reverse and the what you called almost mirrored portion. That could be seen as a flaw and that coupled with the experiences listed would give me pause.
Decisions decisions, the guy on my left shoulder says "Crack it and submit it" but the guy on the right says "Proceed with caution"

I completely agree, even though the surface is almost literally untouched...which is why I'm totally letting Stacks decide for me what's best. I'm excited because this is the culmination of decades of collecting!!!
I am genuinely selling a generous PILE of coins all worth thousands each and that's new for me!
Finally! Selling some of my higher value coins and we're going to see how many of them can get into PCGS holders if they are not already.
I'll be posting some of the nickels in the next few days...wait until you see those!
And then on top of all this I have pile of wonderful raw stuff going for grading asap :-)

Serious crossover question about some really nice coins...

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