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Quarter Error - what happened here?

Recently acquired this neat Indiana statehood quarter. Hoping any of you who are knowledgeable of errors can explain how this happened.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My first thought is it's a lamination flaw and a strike thru. I'm waiting for the brain trust to arrive. Peace Roy

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep.... Appears to be missing half the clad layer on the reverse....Interesting find - was it in change? Or roll searching? Cheers, RickO

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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Missing part of the clad layer.

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    KliaoKliao Posts: 5,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks to be a missing clad layer.

    Question to the error experts: Is the missing clad layer why there's striking weakness on half of the obverse?

    Young Numismatist/collector
    75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

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    silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2021 8:23AM

    @Kliao said:
    Looks to be a missing clad layer.

    Question to the error experts: Is the missing clad layer why there's striking weakness on half of the obverse?

    yes, although there is something else going on there.

    There's damage at the obverse bottom. There's also a near featureless section on the reverse.

    I'd like to see a side view.

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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Skeptical on the missing clad layer.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the feedback I like to see! @Sundog605 do you have a digital scale? And how bout a pic of the edge where the clad break is? Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the past I have seen a genuine error also contain PMD, confusing the overall diagnosis. For example, a Clip with PMD elsewhere on the coin.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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    GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love these partial missing clad (defective planchet) errors.

    The obverse does show some “damage” at K6, but that is pre-strike damage, or an improperly formed outer, clad layer, and is considered a part of the error. A lot of these partial missing clad layer errors show similar irregularities in the strip.

    The weakness on the obverse is a direct result of the missing clad layer on the reverse.

    Very nice!

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2021 10:36AM

    Agree with the experts.

    Partial missing layer. The uneven thickness caused the dies to come together with insufficient force to fully strike up the details on the portion with the missing layer and on the corresponding area on the other side.

    I assume the varying thickness of the clad layers is the reason for variations in the strike on the portion missing the CN clad.

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    The coin weighs 5.08 grams.

    Thanks for all your responses.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2021 10:45AM

    @Sundog605 That's a very nice error coin.

    You should get it graded by PCGS.

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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2021 10:49AM

    @Zoins said:
    @Sundog605 That's a very nice error coin.

    You should get it graded by PCGS.

    And get your coin back in maybe 6 months if you are lucky :(

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2021 10:51AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Zoins said:
    @Sundog605 That's a very nice error coin.

    You should get it graded by PCGS.

    And get your coin back in maybe 6 months if you are lucky :(

    That would matter more if the money is needed for a quick sale, but if it's for a collection, it may be okay.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Personally I'd get it slabbed either way, by PCGS or the other guys, so the error is identified and authenticated.

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    GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Personally I'd get it slabbed either way, by PCGS or the other guys, so the error is identified and authenticated.

    I disagree. This error is easy to identify and authenticate and is not very valuable. That should not be a reason for slabbing.

    If resale is the goal for the OP, it also would not make sense to pay the high fees for slabbing, unless you are a dealer that can charge a premium due to your good will and following, or as a throw-in as part of a larger submission.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldenEgg said:

    @JBK said:
    Personally I'd get it slabbed either way, by PCGS or the other guys, so the error is identified and authenticated.

    I disagree. This error is easy to identify and authenticate and is not very valuable. That should not be a reason for slabbing.

    If resale is the goal for the OP, it also would not make sense to pay the high fees for slabbing, unless you are a dealer that can charge a premium due to your good will and following, or as a throw-in as part of a larger submission.

    I'll defer to you on value. If the value is not there then of course it does not make sense. I assumed it would be worth at least the grading fees.

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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree the error is very identifiable.

    I would get this error certified and the value increase would be more than the plastic fee.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is trickier that it appears to be at first glance. You have two voids in the reverse where the cladding broke away prior to the strike. This is confirmed by the corresponding weak areas on the obverse.

    HOWEVER, the reverse between the two voids is both copper colored and normally struck, as is the strike on the corresponding area of the obverse. This means that when the three coils of metal, copper-nickel, copper and copper-nickel, were being bonded together to form the sandwich strip, one of the copper-nickel coils ran out before the other two did. This meant that the strip after this point had only two layers, but was rolled to normal thickness.

    After the blank was punched out two pieces of metal fell out of it, perhaps during the upsetting process. These may have been fragments of copper-nickel from the end of the one copper-nickel coil. That would be most likely, in my opinion.

    So, you have a planchet strip bonding error AND a subsequent cladding separation error prior to the strike. Good luck getting that on a label.

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jimnight said:
    Missing part of the clad layer.

    :o

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will defer to EOC on the slabbing. I want to see how they write the label.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    Sundog605Sundog605 Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2021 7:34PM

    Update: Coin is in transit to our host for authentication and grading. I will post once back in my possession.

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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    I will defer to EOC on the slabbing. I want to see how they write the label.

    It could be labeled Stuck on a Defective Planchet and /or Missing Partial Clad Layer.

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,213 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope you come back way sooner than that

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2021 2:59PM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    I hope you come back way sooner than that

    In one week, My order will have been checked in exactly 4 months ago.

    It did hit QA today or yesterday so it will be close but most likely 4 plus months. :o

    FYI: I sent a large error coin order ATS yesterday so it is a race between the two submissions ;) (mine did have 25 coins tho)

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,213 ✭✭✭✭✭

    they are afraid of making an error

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2021 3:01PM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    they are afraid of making an error

    ATS makes errors on their error labels all the time :o:o:o

    Fred gets it right 99.9% of the time IMO.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    This is trickier that it appears to be at first glance. You have two voids in the reverse where the cladding broke away prior to the strike. This is confirmed by the corresponding weak areas on the obverse.

    HOWEVER, the reverse between the two voids is both copper colored and normally struck, as is the strike on the corresponding area of the obverse. This means that when the three coils of metal, copper-nickel, copper and copper-nickel, were being bonded together to form the sandwich strip, one of the copper-nickel coils ran out before the other two did. This meant that the strip after this point had only two layers, but was rolled to normal thickness.

    After the blank was punched out two pieces of metal fell out of it, perhaps during the upsetting process. These may have been fragments of copper-nickel from the end of the one copper-nickel coil. That would be most likely, in my opinion.

    So, you have a planchet strip bonding error AND a subsequent cladding separation error prior to the strike. Good luck getting that on a label.

    TD

    I would send CaptHenway's explanation to someone at PCGS with your photos before actually sending the coin and just ask what type explanation could be placed on the holder. This I feel is a special situation that deserves special attention. Surely, their is someone that specializes in these type errors at PCGS that would help you. For sure a phone call might insure you reach the correct person and be ready for a lengthy wait to speak to someone, probably requiring the call back procedure which has averaged about an hour wait per 10 people ahead of you on the call back list, at least for me lately. Neat error. Thanks for sharing. Welcome to the forum. Great early post.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Doesn't Fred get to decide how to describe errors?

    HEY FRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,213 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would send CaptHenway's explanation to someone at PCGS with your photos before actually sending the coin and just ask what type explanation could be placed on the holder.

    they have someone, but don't expect a transfer or call back from an error expert on what can fit on a label.

    here is a label where they used both lines:

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll see the coin in a few weeks it seems,
    so I'll figure out how to describe it then.

    From what I see, I agree with Tom that
    it's both a planchet strip and clad layer issue.

    Looks like it might be something like:

    'Defective Planchet - Partial Clad Layer Missing Rev."

    or similar, that fits in the two lines (2nd line is called
    a Pedigree Line, and they don't like to use it too often)

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021 11:19AM

    @Sundog605 said:
    Back from our host, graded Mint Error, MS 63, Indiana, Partial Clad Layer, Defective Planchet:

    AWESOME,DUDE! <3 Beautiful too.

    Congratulations

    Great Catch

    Fred was right again. ;)

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome Coin and Congrats on the error label.

    If you ever want to sell that coin, I would be interested.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021 1:59AM

    That is a beautiful coin!

    The reverse is perfect for the 24 hours of Indy race, like going from nighttime to daytime!

    Would this be a candidate for the 100 Greatest Modern U.S. Coins? :)

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Would this be a candidate for the 100 Greatest Modern U.S. Coins? :)

    I think it is a great looking error, but earlier in the thread there was some doubt that it was worth enough to get slabbed. (I'm glad it was slabbed).

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @Zoins said:

    Would this be a candidate for the 100 Greatest Modern U.S. Coins? :)

    I think it is a great looking error, but earlier in the thread there was some doubt that it was worth enough to get slabbed. (I'm glad it was slabbed).

    There was no doubt in my mind. Here's my quote :)

    @Zoins said:
    @Sundog605 That's a very nice error coin.

    You should get it graded by PCGS.

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    USSID17USSID17 Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sundog605 said:
    Recently acquired this neat Indiana statehood quarter. Hoping any of you who are knowledgeable of errors can explain how this happened.

    Nice find. Glad you sent it in and for sharing the results.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Nice error.

    Missing partial clad error.

    The obverse is not damaged.

    The weakness is due to the thinness of the missing clad layer.

    Absolutely agree.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    ModwriterModwriter Posts: 330 ✭✭✭

    Congrats on your quarter being graded at MS63! Did you request an MS grade on the sub form?

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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonder how rare is the partial missing layer compare with the full missing layer or even missing two layer on both side?

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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By the way the TV makes the op’s coin looks very nice.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jt88 I'm not sure about the rarity of partial or missing clad layers, but missing both clad layers is extremely rare.
    Also just a clad layer seem to be extremely rare.



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    jt88jt88 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I seldom see missing both side but again I don’t see too many partial missing too.

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