OGH CAC HR Saint with a gem look..... If you were in the market for one of these, you could have passed up this one for many lesser coins in higher graded holders. I love everything about this one. Well played, and I’d leave it right where it is.
@cameonut2011 said:
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
If the CAC sticker looks silly, how does the PCGS grade look? Agreed about “unless the images are hiding something” and as nice as the coin looks, my guess is that there are grade-limiting flaws which aren’t apparent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with others who say it is undergraded. Very hard to find these with that level of eye appeal. I wouldn't want to lose the old holder but it could go 64/65.
I am surprised.... I would have guessed 65.... I thought about it for a while... and reads some of the posts... Then I got to the actual grade....wow.... There must be something we do not see....Beautiful coin Mark... Cheers, RickO
I rather doubt the coin is a slam dunk 65 technically, and I think it's probably worth at least as much in the current holder as it would be as a modern 64, possibly even with a bean at that level. So I'd want JA's assurance that it would bean as a 64 before I'd even contemplate a Reconsideration at PCGS. Even then, unless it came back at least 64+, it wouldn't feel like much of a win. Bear in mind also that I have a strong emotional attachment to old green label holders. YMMV.
@CoinJunkie said:
I rather doubt the coin is a slam dunk 65 technically, and I think it's probably worth at least as much in the current holder as it would be as a modern 64, possibly even with a bean at that level. So I'd want JA's assurance that it would bean as a 64 before I'd even contemplate a Reconsideration at PCGS. Even then, unless it came back at least 64+, it wouldn't feel like much of a win. Bear in mind also that I have a strong emotional attachment to old green label holders. YMMV.
Understand. CAC price listing jumps $8600 at 64, $ plus unknown, and (longshot) $36,600 at 65.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@cameonut2011 said:
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
If the CAC sticker looks silly, how does the PCGS grade look?
It also looks silly, but at least it was graded during an older era when grading standards were different even by the admission of David Hall. Given the allure of the OGH and speculation of upgrade potential, I think the grade on the label would be viewed as extremely conservative and probably largely ignored absent hidden flaws in the photos. I think CAC torpedoed much of the coin's auction potential now that it may not be considered an upgrade candidate. With that said, there is no way I'd crack it and lose the OGH and the proven stability of the surfaces given the rampant doctoring in this series.
If the coin looks under graded in hand, I would send it back to CAC with a note asking for reconsideration of the denial of a gold sticker.
@cameonut2011 said:
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
If the CAC sticker looks silly, how does the PCGS grade look?
It also looks silly, but at least it was graded during an older era when grading standards were different even by the admission of David Hall. Given the allure of the OGH and speculation of upgrade potential, I think the grade on the label would be viewed as extremely conservative and probably largely ignored absent hidden flaws in the photos. I think CAC torpedoed much of the coin's auction potential now that it may not be considered an upgrade candidate. With that said, there is no way I'd crack it and lose the OGH and the proven stability of the surfaces given the rampant doctoring in this series.
If the coin looks under graded in hand, I would send it back to CAC with a note asking for reconsideration of the denial of a gold sticker.
All of that makes sense to me. But it’s difficult to imagine that CAC would have failed to award a gold sticker if the coin looked that good in hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@cameonut2011 said:
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
CRO John really couldn't explain the grade either when we were discussing it. He actually was my agent on a 63 gold Sticker HR which we missed on. He liked this current coin better. Basically he said it didn't look like any 63 he has ever seen before. I think that sums it up well. I think it would do very well in a bling taste test. At the end of the day the coin is the coin
In theory CAC JA could have thought the coin was a solid 64 and a still only green stickered it.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Crypto said:
Hence why it was simply called choice uncirculated back in the day which it is. Good example of too many degrees of choice. Paralysis by analysis
It's interesting that you use the word "choice" uncirculated. Years and years ago, choice was MS65 and gem was MS67 (as opposed to MS63 and MS65 respectively today) if I recall correctly.
@cameonut2011 said:
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
CRO John really couldn't explain the grade either when we were discussing it. He actually was my agent on a 63 gold Sticker HR which we missed on. He liked this current coin better. Basically he said it didn't look like any 63 he has ever seen before. I think that sums it up well. I think it would do very well in a bling taste test.
If you don't mind sharing, what was the price difference (in terms of percent to preserve potentially confidential information) between the 63 gold CAC HR and your 63 green CAC HR?
At the end of the day the coin is the coin
+1. In the end the coin is all that matters. Congratulations on the new pick up!
In theory CAC JA could have thought the coin was a solid 64 and a still only green stickered it.
m
That's very true, but it would conflict with statements CAC has made in the past. Basically gold CAC is supposedly equal to (or better than) a green sticker CACed coin at the next grade up. A green sticker would ordinarily mean that your coin is a 63 B, 63 A, or 64 C coin. Your coin puts most of the modern day graded ones to shame and looks to have claims to gem status.
@Crypto said:
Hence why it was simply called choice uncirculated back in the day which it is. Good example of too many degrees of choice. Paralysis by analysis
It's interesting that you use the word "choice" uncirculated. Years and years ago, choice was MS65 and gem was MS67 (as opposed to MS63 and MS65 respectively today) if I recall correctly.
I don’t remember seeing 65 used for “choice” and “67” for “gem”. I think when 67 started being used it referred to “superb”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's a really cool looking coin that looks exactly like the pic.
Thanks all
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In the late s’60s/early 70s, people were using the terms uncirculated/choice/gem and occasionally superb. I have submitted coins from that era (mostly from Stacks) and the correlation of choice/gem/superb to 63-64, 65-66, and 67+ is quite strong.
With regard to the OP coin, assuming it has a few flaws that don’t show up in the photo, circa 1975 I guess Stack’s would have described it as “gem, or nearly so” or perhaps “choice with claims to gem”.
I've never seen a picture of a coin that I wanted to see in hand more than this one because I can't make any sense of the grade. Fantastic coin my goodness
The green CAC sticker does not hurt this coin. CAC stickers on classic US gold are NOT so easy to come by. There are 547 MS high-relief Saints with a green CAC sticker if you combine wire edge and flat edge. There are a grand total of 6 with gold stickers. This is out of 5167 in the PCGS Pop report plus whatever is in the NGC pop report. Sure, some of these are crack-outs, but still the sticker rate is likely below 10%.
So, if you want a nice HR Saint, you aren't married to a particular grade, it has a CAC sticker, and it's absolutely gorgeous, why not just buy it and enjoy the coin? Virtually any knowledgeable buyer now or in the future will understand you'll not be taking this home for typical MS63 money.
If someday you tire of it and need/want to sell it, THEN you've got some decisions to make. Still, as Mark says, the coin is the coin, and any number of good or bad things could happen with further grading adventures.
@PhilLynott said:
I've never seen a picture of a coin that I wanted to see in hand more than this one because I can't make any sense of the grade. Fantastic coin my goodness
There appears to be a decent scratch at 7pm near the reverse rim. There might also be some slight rub on the knee (hard to tell for sure). The tail feathers are a bit weakly struck. It's a beautiful coin, and eye appeal counts for a lot, but it's by no means flawless.
@PhilLynott said:
I've never seen a picture of a coin that I wanted to see in hand more than this one because I can't make any sense of the grade. Fantastic coin my goodness
There appears to be a decent scratch at 7pm near the reverse rim. There might also be some slight rub on the knee (hard to tell for sure). The tail feathers are a bit weakly struck. It's a beautiful coin, and eye appeal counts for a lot, but it's by no means flawless.
Surely, you meant 7:00 AM, not 7 PM!😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PhilLynott said:
I've never seen a picture of a coin that I wanted to see in hand more than this one because I can't make any sense of the grade. Fantastic coin my goodness
There appears to be a decent scratch at 7pm near the reverse rim. There might also be some slight rub on the knee (hard to tell for sure). The tail feathers are a bit weakly struck. It's a beautiful coin, and eye appeal counts for a lot, but it's by no means flawless.
Comments
I have no idea regarding the grade, but it is gorgeous. Happy new year!
Heck of a coin. Congrats!!
The CAC green sticker looks silly. Unless the images are hiding something this should have a gold sticker.
What a beautiful 63!
Wow! That grade doesn't make any sense to me. I know that HR Saints collect defects differently from the way the others do, but, "C'mon, man!"
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
OGH CAC HR Saint with a gem look..... If you were in the market for one of these, you could have passed up this one for many lesser coins in higher graded holders. I love everything about this one. Well played, and I’d leave it right where it is.
Terrific looking coin- congrats
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If the CAC sticker looks silly, how does the PCGS grade look? Agreed about “unless the images are hiding something” and as nice as the coin looks, my guess is that there are grade-limiting flaws which aren’t apparent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That is a coin where the green sticker hurts the value. Surely a 65
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Seems like a coin anybody would be happy to pay 63 money for - gorgeous!!
I agree with others who say it is undergraded. Very hard to find these with that level of eye appeal. I wouldn't want to lose the old holder but it could go 64/65.
I’d be seriously tempted to send that in for reconsideration after removing the sticker. Then after return, resubmit to CAC.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I am surprised.... I would have guessed 65.... I thought about it for a while... and reads some of the posts... Then I got to the actual grade....wow.... There must be something we do not see....Beautiful coin Mark... Cheers, RickO
I rather doubt the coin is a slam dunk 65 technically, and I think it's probably worth at least as much in the current holder as it would be as a modern 64, possibly even with a bean at that level. So I'd want JA's assurance that it would bean as a 64 before I'd even contemplate a Reconsideration at PCGS. Even then, unless it came back at least 64+, it wouldn't feel like much of a win. Bear in mind also that I have a strong emotional attachment to old green label holders. YMMV.
Wow beautiful piece! I was thinking 65
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Amazing coin for a 63. Congrats.
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Understand. CAC price listing jumps $8600 at 64, $ plus unknown, and (longshot) $36,600 at 65.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Undergraded I'd say as well. Very nice!
My guess was 65+ CAC. That is perhaps the nicest MS63 coin I have ever seen.
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I'd have said 65. Very Nice.
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It also looks silly, but at least it was graded during an older era when grading standards were different even by the admission of David Hall. Given the allure of the OGH and speculation of upgrade potential, I think the grade on the label would be viewed as extremely conservative and probably largely ignored absent hidden flaws in the photos. I think CAC torpedoed much of the coin's auction potential now that it may not be considered an upgrade candidate. With that said, there is no way I'd crack it and lose the OGH and the proven stability of the surfaces given the rampant doctoring in this series.
If the coin looks under graded in hand, I would send it back to CAC with a note asking for reconsideration of the denial of a gold sticker.
Holy cow. I had that as a 66. Great coin!
Nice....from the images I would have said 65 as well.
All of that makes sense to me. But it’s difficult to imagine that CAC would have failed to award a gold sticker if the coin looked that good in hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CRO John really couldn't explain the grade either when we were discussing it. He actually was my agent on a 63 gold Sticker HR which we missed on. He liked this current coin better. Basically he said it didn't look like any 63 he has ever seen before. I think that sums it up well. I think it would do very well in a bling taste test. At the end of the day the coin is the coin
In theory CAC JA could have thought the coin was a solid 64 and a still only green stickered it.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hence why it was simply called choice uncirculated back in the day which it is. Good example of too many degrees of choice. Paralysis by analysis
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Very nice coin Mark! Congrats.
I was thinking 65, maybe 64 on a bad day. That has to be the nicest 63 in existence, I can see why you snagged it.
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Great coin with a great look! Congratulations.
Not if it's for an OGH type set.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That's a pretty spectacular HR for a 63, congrats on the pickup.
Late to the party but that is a beautiful piece and excellent example of a special coin.
It's interesting that you use the word "choice" uncirculated. Years and years ago, choice was MS65 and gem was MS67 (as opposed to MS63 and MS65 respectively today) if I recall correctly.
.
If you don't mind sharing, what was the price difference (in terms of percent to preserve potentially confidential information) between the 63 gold CAC HR and your 63 green CAC HR?
+1. In the end the coin is all that matters. Congratulations on the new pick up!
That's very true, but it would conflict with statements CAC has made in the past. Basically gold CAC is supposedly equal to (or better than) a green sticker CACed coin at the next grade up. A green sticker would ordinarily mean that your coin is a 63 B, 63 A, or 64 C coin. Your coin puts most of the modern day graded ones to shame and looks to have claims to gem status.
Looks better
I don’t remember seeing 65 used for “choice” and “67” for “gem”. I think when 67 started being used it referred to “superb”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's a really cool looking coin that looks exactly like the pic.
Thanks all
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In the late s’60s/early 70s, people were using the terms uncirculated/choice/gem and occasionally superb. I have submitted coins from that era (mostly from Stacks) and the correlation of choice/gem/superb to 63-64, 65-66, and 67+ is quite strong.
With regard to the OP coin, assuming it has a few flaws that don’t show up in the photo, circa 1975 I guess Stack’s would have described it as “gem, or nearly so” or perhaps “choice with claims to gem”.
I've never seen a picture of a coin that I wanted to see in hand more than this one because I can't make any sense of the grade. Fantastic coin my goodness
The green CAC sticker does not hurt this coin. CAC stickers on classic US gold are NOT so easy to come by. There are 547 MS high-relief Saints with a green CAC sticker if you combine wire edge and flat edge. There are a grand total of 6 with gold stickers. This is out of 5167 in the PCGS Pop report plus whatever is in the NGC pop report. Sure, some of these are crack-outs, but still the sticker rate is likely below 10%.
So, if you want a nice HR Saint, you aren't married to a particular grade, it has a CAC sticker, and it's absolutely gorgeous, why not just buy it and enjoy the coin? Virtually any knowledgeable buyer now or in the future will understand you'll not be taking this home for typical MS63 money.
If someday you tire of it and need/want to sell it, THEN you've got some decisions to make. Still, as Mark says, the coin is the coin, and any number of good or bad things could happen with further grading adventures.
There appears to be a decent scratch at 7pm near the reverse rim. There might also be some slight rub on the knee (hard to tell for sure). The tail feathers are a bit weakly struck. It's a beautiful coin, and eye appeal counts for a lot, but it's by no means flawless.
Ehh multi person reply conversations don’t really work when they strip the message out.
No matter great coin. I like it better as a too good to be true 63 of an all time great coin. Good eye as always
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Surely, you meant 7:00 AM, not 7 PM!😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Strange GTG. Anyone who got it right would have looked foolish prior to the reveal.
Based on the images, anyone who guessed “right” was mistaken.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, AM is the obverse.