NEWPS $3 1854, what would you grade this/how did I do.
CalifornianKing
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Paid 320 cash + 2 common MS64 Morgan’s + AU det cleaned 1852 $5 plus a bit of junk silver. For $950 total. Dealer said it’s a AU. Looks AU58 to me.
https://imgur.com/gallery/0l5nr7V
Sorry for the blurryness first time filming w my phone.
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Comments
It needs to be authenticated. $3 gold coins have been heavily counterfeited for decades. Buying them raw is a big risk.
It's a little hard to tell from the photos, but the fields look flat like it's been cleaned or polished. It might just be the photo though - the obverse shows a hint of luster. For $900, you should be able to buy a $3 gold coin in this date already graded in a PCGS AU50 or AU53 holder.
I'll let the experts chime in, but I'm hesitant to spend more than a couple hundred bucks on raw coins unless it's bullion from a reputable dealer. If you don't have the expertise to authenticate and ballpark grade these, you're much better off sticking to slabbed coins from one of the top-tier TPGs.
What’s going on with the rims?
Here’s some info I found.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Understand. He told me it was a AU58
EDIT:
In hand it looks like a MS/gem minus parts of the OBV, the rev looks gem quality and the OBV looks AU55/58 quality.
A lot of fishyness going on here.
First of all, why would a dealer call it AU58 when it looks MS68?
Secondly, why would he trade it for a little cash and some junk silver, etc.
Thirdly, where is the luster? Did he net grade the clean to a 58?
You might’ve thought he just needed some Christmas bonus money but when in reality he just needed some Christmas bonus money.
Don’ get me wrong , It’s a very beautiful coin but I would take the Brice advice and get it authenticated quickly. If nothing else by another dealer.
I texted a dealer friend of mine and he said it's fake. I'll try to take it to a dealer tommorow. If it comes back fake tf should I do?
@CalifornianKing I would go back to the dealer and tell him “no deal” and if he didn’t comply I would promise to burn his company name, but that’s just me
before I left there he would certainly know that he just made a really bad decision.
Just give him a few minutes to consider he will most likely comply.
Understand
The above has the potential to be profoundly poor advice.
The OP texted a dealer friend with, most likely, one or more images of the piece in question and the dealer friend responded that the piece was a counterfeit. The dealer friend may absolutely be correct (I don't know if it is counterfeit or not based upon the images) but the dealer who sold the coin to the OP may legitimately disagree with the ascertainment of counterfeit and the original dealer might end up being correct.
I could be entirely wrong here, but it "reads" to me like both @CoinscratchFever and @CalifornianKing are both young and/or relatively inexperienced numismatists. There is no reason to take a scorched earth approach with threats. You may end up receiving a refund, either because one is due or because the dealer wants to simply get rid of a problem customer, but you may also end up alienating not only a local dealer, but perhaps many local dealers, and may give yourself a very bad reputation on these boards.
If you need to, go back to the original dealer and explain your quandary, he/she may have a reasonable solution for you and it might be quick and painless. If not, then TPG certification might be the answer to your question. Regardless, if you are familiar with all the quirks of what you may or may not buy before you buy then things should go much smoother in the future.
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You are correct. I am 17, and fairly (in the grand scale of things) inexperienced. The coin looked good. I did not believe it was fake at the time, nor do I currently belive it is fake. I will do as others suggested and look at die markers and if they are not there I will have a conversation with the dealer about sending it in and if it's a fake a refund, ect. I did send my dealer friend the video and those images.
This will probably read as tough love, but I'm okay with that. I've known @TomB (for real, in person... not just on the boards) since I was 14. I'm now 33. I've learned a ton from him over the years, and trust me, he's very wise. I point out that I met him when I was 14 because it means I knew him when I was your age, and what he's writing sounds awfully familiar to me. I remember being an excited collector, especially as I graduated from having a very limited budget from allowance money to having jobs that let me start spending more on my collection. It's fun to get new coins, but you need to know what you don't know, and accept those as limitations.
This coin is not the first questionable purchase you've shown recently in terms of thinking you got a deal and finding out it may not be all it's cracked up to be (for the record, I won't comment on authenticity, but my gut reaction seeing the photos is that something looks wrong--I cannot imagine the coin being authentic and problem-free). I'd like to suggest that you consider slowing down, or at least really think through your purchases and stick to certified coins until you have more experience with raw. I don't know your financial situation, but you're playing with numbers that would make me nervous now, and I'm well out of school with a good job.
Before I sound too high and mighty, an example. I was at a show when I was 17 or 18 and bought some raw coin I don't remember (I think it was a toned buffalo nickel). I was really excited about it and showed a dealer I trusted. He pointed out all the problems with it (namely, it was cleaned, which enabled it to tone). It was a junky coin I had no business buying, but something made me think it was great. While in-person sales are generally final (outside of authenticity), the dealer who sold me the coin was kind and gave me my money back. I felt bad about it and ended up buying something else I didn't really like so I didn't just walk away wasting their time, but at least it was a decent coin (just not my taste) and I broke even on it some time down the road. Point is, I got excited and bought something that was out of my league. I know a lot more now (and have for some time), but learning isn't immediate.
Buying certified coins doesn't mean you'll get great coins (maybe not even decent ones). At most, it means problems likely aren't severe if they're present (unless they're marked as present) and the coin is genuine. But until you know enough to be really sure of what you're buying, there's a lot of value in the holder. Look at lots of coins, both in person and online, and learn what is and isn't good. And if you're not sure, ask before you buy. For what it's worth, there are numerous gold coins I still won't buy raw unless it's from a trusted source. I know that I don't know the intricacies of those series, thus I leave it to the experts. I'd much rather say that than find out I got burned because I pushed the limits of my abilities.
Unless you’re an expert or you have more money than brains don’t buy expensive raw coins.
Thank you for your kind words. I am a impulsive person and I have been trying to work on that. The only way I am going to try to get a refund is if it is fake. That's it. I will try to stick to graded coins from now on. I've done alot better now than I did a few months ago but it's a learning process. For me $900 is a major purchase so I am not going to get bummed out until I get a verdict. Looking at the photos now I can tell that something is wrong. It looks to perfect. Thank you for your time.
Suggest that you take it back to the dealer and ask him to submit it to one of the major grading services for grading and authentication. Of course, you'll have to pay for the shipping, insurance, and grading fee. This way if it comes back as being fake or cleaned, he can't claim that you switched coins on him.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I don’t think the coin is genuine. I’d go back to the dealer, not make accusations or threats, let him know some dealers have told you the coin looks questionable and see what he’s willing to do. No matter what he says, try to remain calm and polite, but if necessary, firm.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Should have asked first.
BTW you can take off the gloves unless you think it’s radioactive, you can’t hurt that one.
All raw 3$ gold have a significant chance of being fakes. Some things about the coin don't seem right to me.
TomB and MFeld both have good suggestions for approaching the dealer. Hope this works out ok for you.
Buying raw gold is risky at best. Add in the fact that you are inexperienced and that triples the risk. Follow the advice above and let us know what transpires. Cheers, RickO
Being careful, you could take some calipers to measure the coin's diameter, thickness, and weight it to see if it matches with the specifications of a genuine $3 gold. A while ago, I bought a collection of CC Morgan's which are also heavily faked and using the specifications of genuine coins and also looking at the detail, and also comparing the MM with genuine ones to determine the authenticity of the coins.
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The rims and denticles are too sharp to be genuine, in my humble opinion. The fields are suspect too. Otherwise, not a bad looking counterfeit and if it is real gold and you end up getting stuck with it, you could have done worse I suppose (trying to spread a little sunshine where there is pretty much only darkness).
Is this a gut feeling or is this a legitimate counterfeit detection diagnostic that you have experience with? I looked at photos on CoinFacts and there are many examples with sharp denticles. I want to improve my knowledge on this subject and it’s important to separate verifiable facts from speculation.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Knowledge is power and one way we learn things is through mistakes...and I made some big ones when I first started collecting! Hang in there and as people have said - remain calm and you will remain in control and get an equitable resolution to the issue.
Good question.
It's mostly gut. Kind of know it when you see it.
I did, after posting my thoughts, check on Heritage with past images of this date/type and all it did was confirm in my mind my conclusion. Again though, it is why I preface it as "in my humble opinion".
OP. I know you’re feeling burned right now and maybe a bit embarrassed. Don’t let this experience turn you off from our hobby. We’ve all made mistakes when we first got started and these experiences made us wiser, often referred to here as paying tuition. At a minimum, please don’t buy ungraded coins until you understand what you are buying.
I wish the best for you as you try recover from this.
Here is an 1854 $3 gold that is in a PCGS MS-63 holder, if that is of any help.
For what it's worth, the dentiles on the OP coin look suspect to me. I would pass.
The mushy details are suspect. I hope the dealer will make you right if it turns out counterfeit.
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The coin is not genuine I am afraid to say. I am confident in the assessment however
Would you be willing to offer some specifics on your assessment, how you came to it, advice on what less experienced folks should look out for? The red flag of buying a commonly counterfeit coin raw aside, how should we be looking at the coin itself?
Thank you for any wisdom you can offer.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
What are you sayin guys? I am very calm. I said IF HE DIDN"T COMPLY THEN...
You can't let this guy walk all over a YN however, now knowing his age I would change my response to what some others have said. @CalifornianKing IF...the dealer is knowingly selling you a fake (in his mind a 17 yr old kid) is not going to carry much weight.
Best of luck to you sir!
You didn't ask me, but I'll give my perspective. Eye-balling the entire coin, at first glance, it looks to be uncommonly well preserved, with an essentially perfect reverse and satiny surfaces. Yet at the same time, compared to genuine examples, the strike is uniformly mushy. Compare it to the one posted by Bill Jones. And if you view pictures of other genuine examples, I think you will see similar differences.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Like others have already said, that coin just looks off. The strange luster and the mushy hair are major tipoffs for me, Here is my 1854 $3 in AU-55 for comparison:
10-4,
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Here is a picture I’ve got of the liberty.
One thing I noticed is that the "I" in UNITED is missing a serif. Cross-referencing that against CoinFacts photos, it does appear that this is common on some examples. Interestingly, all of the examples with this characteristic also have the die gouges and weakness around the "I" in LIBERTY. Take a look at my photo and the snippet of diagnostic that I posted earlier.
It does not look like OPs coin is showing those die gouges or weakness on the "I", but it's difficult to say for sure from the photos and videos. @CalifornianKing do you see those disturbances? Can you provide a higher quality photo of "LIBERTY"?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I do not like the looks of the coin. A hard pass for me.
I'm pretty sure it is fake. I had an 1854 $3 that I asked about on here earlier this year and yours reminds me of it. It is likely real gold, but a fake coin. You should definitely return it. You also paid too much for it (traded too much), even if it were real. An AU graded example can be had for 800-1000.
@CalifornianKing funny, we were posting at the same time about the exact same thing. I believe your macro photo shows that those die gouge lines are NOT present. Combined with my anecdotal evidence gathered from CoinFacts that all examples displaying a missing/weak serif in the "I" in UNITED should have it, it leads me to lean much more heavily towards this being counterfeit.
All that said, I am a novice when it comes to counterfeit detection. Another anecdote: my PCGS-certified 1854 $3 has neither the weak/missing serif nor the die gouge lines.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Understand. I will go back to the shop to see what we can do.
The close up makes it look counterfeit to me.
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Others certainly might disagree and/or offer other possible solutions that they feel are better.
However, I think the fairest, most prudent course of action would be for the dealer to submit the coin to PCGS for authentication/grading.
If it comes back counterfeit, you are entitled to a full refund and he is responsible for the grading and shipping fees.
If it comes back genuine, regardless of the grade or details grade, you keep the coin and reimburse him for the grading and postage fees.
Whatever you agree upon, I urge you to get it in writing and to make sure that the agreement is very clear, with no ambiguities.
Also, don’t make any quick decisions, which you might regret after you’ve had time to reflect. Allow yourself time to obtain helpful feedback from others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Many of the serifs are missing and the details are mushy, but the first thing that stood out to me was the color of the coin. I don't know how to explain, but after you have seen enough gold coins (including counterfeits) the color on counterfeits is just off despite the fact they are typically the same metal composition.
UPDATE
I took it back to the dealer and showed him all this. He agreed to a full refund and said that it seems that I am right. I am quite happy since he is a great and a honest dealer.
Excellent.
@BillJones showed a great example to help with this. On many older series, even sharp and well struck denticles tend to have a bit of rounding too them (proofs are more likely to be squared and razor sharp). I think what people are seeing on the OPs coin is a sharpness that comes from a more modern striking technique. It’s not that a genuine example would have weak denticles per se, but they’re strong in a different way.
I’m glad you got a full refund and can put this behind you.
However, while the dealer is hopefully honest, if the coin is a counterfeit and he didn’t know it, I might not consider him a “great“ dealer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good for you and the dealer. He did the right thing in the end. I would have suspicions going forward. The two options are he was not able to notice a fake or he sold it anyway. Either is not good in my opinion.
Understand. Being honest at first glance that coin looked real. Even after 10m of handling it looked real, just a bit sus. Maybe he was distracted? Idk. He said he’ll send it into ngc.
If it seems even a little sus it is not worth the risk. The coin has to convince a skeptic that it's real.
I'm really glad to hear you were made whole, and hopefully learned some diagnostic tips as well. The dealer should be sharper, but he was at least honest and made good.
FYI, mushy details should always ring alarm bells, especially in weird places like the reverse center of your coin. There are genuine coins with weak strikes, but again, you should prove to yourself it's real before you commit to a purchase. Learning a series in detail will help you a lot.
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My 1st impression before I read any comments was counterfeit. 1 thing I have learned about US gold is if looks too good to be true it is usually counterfeit. I don't like the uneven denticles either. I bet upon close examination with a loop you will find stray tooling marks in the denticles.
I couldn't get the "wire edge" rims to agree with the overall soft/mushy look of the details.
Glad this worked out ok for the OP.