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Clad Error
Jgrabocoin
Posts: 29 ✭✭
Tell me what your take is on this one. 2017 Effigy Mounds ATB Quarter. Looks to me like the layers are mixed up and spotty instead of layered correctly. Let me know what you think the value might be just for fun. #keepingthisone
Thanks
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looks like a combination of
discoloration - environmental damage
funny looking shapes on reverse with defined edges - clear glue
There is no glue or raised edges. All the edges are indented. What would explain the mixture in the edge layers instead of clearly defined layers like usual?
it's normal to have variations with what shows through the reeds. some of the copper core was smeared over one clad layer. check other uncirculated quarters and you'll see all kinds of variations.
Are you saying normal as in it’s basically worthless or normal as In common? I’ve never found one before through the thousands of quarter rolls I’ve searched.
It is discoloration or staining, not struck on a defective clad layer. An true error would hopefully be more lustrous, if still uncirculated, and the copper color would be more uniform, rather than splotchy. The boundaries between the copper and nickel would also be more distinct on a true defective planchet.
Environmental damage. It spent some time buried, was dug up and then cleaned with something like Kaboom.
Post Mint Damage
normal, with respect to what you are seeing one the reeding, in that random variations with the punching the blank and striking it in collar can make what you see on the reeding all kinds of different... including looking like it one of the clad layers is missing or incredibly thin. ... but in reality the clad layers are all there.
if it were missing or had a thin clad layer the weight would be off.
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/coin-and-medal-programs/coin-specifications
5.670 g more or less is what a normal one would weigh.
you have an interesting looking quarter but its value is only a quarter.
On a side note, I hate to say, but it seems like a lot of people on this site seem very skeptical and close minded to possible errors, then dismiss them rather fast and harshly. That’s just my perspective so far since joining this site. (Not a discussion starter)
There is no deterioration of the stamping though and is just as lusterous as any other quarter in my pocket. I’ll check the weight when I get home tonight. Maybe I’ll try to get better photos and you can actually take a better look and see.
I know you said it isn’t a discussion starter but it is worth mentioning a few things. One is you’re right that there is a harsh tone for a lot of these threads but quite a few people try to educate and point out good resources. Two is the majority of “errors” posted here aren’t errors.
It’s exciting to see something different in change. I’ve gotten caught up in it myself in the past. I bought a book on the mint process and it had pictures of just about every kind of mint made error. That really helped me learn what is what. I also learned that some errors are errors of a kind but aren’t worth much.
In any case, hope you stick around and enjoy your time here.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Your quarter is not an error coin.
The look you want to see on a missing partial clad quarter is this ...
we're not trying to be harsh. we have many such questions and over the years the explanations have diminished past explanations and dwindled down to a few simple words.
I'm glad you came here for advice, but if you aren't going to listen to the advice then it won't be a very positive experience for you.
I don't blame you for thinking you see exposed copper because at first glance that is what it looks like. However, more experienced people recognize the signs of environmental damage, and they've seen it before.
At least one of the people who gave you feedback is a fulltime error coin dealer.
You also have to remember that the silver-colored metal in our modern coinage is an alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel (five cent coins are a solid alloy of this mixture, and the outer layers of clad clubs are as well). The color of the nickel usually predominates but when subjected to certain conditions or elements the copper color emerges.
for the reverse....
I don't see diminished detail as would be seen on a struck through coin
https://www.sullivannumismatics.com/information/articles/strike-through-error-coins
or with a lamination error:
the picture is linked from the below page. it is #2 on the slideshow after the lincoln cent.
https://www.coinworld.com/numismatic/collector-basics/coin-world-collecting-basics-lamination-errors-numismatics-error-coins-collecting-hobby.html
It’s not a matter of not listening to the advise. I take all into consideration. The matter is getting “answers” before questions.
I, like most others would ask more descriptive questions to make a more accurate or fair assessment instead of responding right away with a quick and harsh dismissal that doesn’t match the description.
I might stay to read other threads but doubtful that I will post because of that reason. That is all there is to be said on that.
If anyone wants to ask questions about the coin and maybe come to a more accurate conclusion with fair discussion, I’m game. Otherwise, I’m out. Thanks
Yes, it is only worth face value.
Many of the answers are from experienced numismatists who know and understand the minting process. They have explained why your coin has environmental damage.
Translation: "I only want to hear what I want to hear."
Sorry, but people won't lie to you just to protect your feelings.
Your coin is not an error, for the reasons stated by multiple people. Ask all the questions you want in order to understand that, but the outcome won't change.
Sorry.
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
I'm not sure whether you want us to ask questions or you have more questions. But the reason none of us asked questions is because that is clearly environmental damage and it is easily recognizable from the very good pictures you posted.
the idea is to not make things worse here.
OP is frustrated that every one of their posted “errors” is not an error.
https://forums.collectors.com/profile/discussions/Jgrabocoin
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Ok, I guess “easily recognizable” for you may be a thing. Not so much for me. Can you explain how you came to the answer of environmental damage. I’m curious of what details lead you to believe that and what indicators actually make that the consensus. Maybe I can use it to help me avoid this situation again.
Take a look at the Heritage error coin archives and search for lamination or plating errors. See if your coin looks like any of them and post for comparison.
The most obvious thing (to me) is the lettering. If the copper core were showing through, it would be a problem before striking. The raised letters would not be silver against a copper background.
Looks like PMD
Jim, can you give a better description of your assessment? I would like to know your reasons for it. Thank you
I was going to write something long-winded.
what jmlanzaf has pointed out is evidence enough.
look in the yellow squares. the raised letters being one color and the fields around them a darker color is shown.
my part:
note how nice the reeding looks... shiny, most of it. but not all of it. in the red box is a discolored area. that is not "thick copper." it is ED. since the rest of the reeding looks great I would say this coin wasn't dug up from the ground.
in the red are lighter areas where I guess you would argue is a thicker upper layer? if you argue that the copper is showing through. How is it that there are seeming dark areas next to very light areas? it's spider webbed before being rolled
(and note there are plain bright spots in dark areas. a dropped bit of metal?)
In the pink, (bad drawing job from me) look next to the diagonal line and you see abrupt color changes next to the diagonal line. that patch is not even copper colored. that has to be ED, right?
In the green is that familiar lighter color, but not where the hair meets the field. that arc is dark.
in the red rectangle on the left? pooling next to the rim
in the pink "montana" shape? pooling.
around the hair-meets-field? pooling
Yellow? pooling.... the letters are raised out of the pools.
Reeding? looking new until it hits that discolored part...
in short it's all discolored from ED.
These layers come on rolls. the ends of each layer are machine cut not ragged(spider-webbed).
Thanks to all for the info, good read.
New photos with the microscope. Maybe these will shed some light on what I would think is not ED and looks like the copper is showing through or is not layered as normal.
I'm interested in seeing this coin a year from now, if you place it on a window shelf.
It may just transform,( as you saw, and stated ) into a swan. With a burst of color.
But don't touch it.
Nothing else here regarding surface appeal.
Worth a try.( No pun intended )
Cool
the E that is causing the ED is leeching the copper out of the 75/25.
then there are some areas that are just plain clad layer with ED (and that appears to have no leeching there)
It is really environmental damage... and good information has been provided above. A judicious dip would totally change the appearance and remove most of the questionable discoloration. Cheers, RickO
It looks more like acid damage in those photos. If I go into work this week, I'll try to make another one for you to compare.
This forum IS brutal in its analysis at times. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong. QDB himself told me “Discoveries ARE Made”. I remember my attempts to discuss, analyze and interpret the Gilfoil Copper. Amazingly, this forum turned up a dozen experts full of reasons why it could not possibly be that, despite the Fact that not a single one had even heard of it before I began presenting evidence such as Period trial transcripts, XRF analysis proving Parys Mountain origin of the copper, similar segments of Spanish Silver coin marked by a smaller similar British Broad Arrow found at Fort Crown Point, a very similar copper farthing size piece found there.... Nothing I could present was about to sway the rock solid opinions of the Experts here who had never even heard of this piece before I presented it. I swear, if you told forum members the sun is Bright, a good number would steadfastly disagree!
It's overcast in Rochester.
P.S. I pulled up the old Gilfoil Copper thread. Very interesting. You might resurrect the thread for people like me who missed it the first time around. If nothing else, it is a really good example of solid research.
The consensus here is correct, far more often than not. In your case, the evidence you presented was very different and far more thorough than what posters with so-called errors tend to post. If you honestly disagree with the preceding, I say to you...the sun is dull.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A “judicious dip” in what? Isn’t that considered “cleaning” which is the ultimate sacrilege in coin collecting? I’m not willing to destroy this coin just to try to find out this happens to be something other than ED.
There are numerous ways for a coin to become damaged in circulation. But the minting process us well understood (especially by members who are trying to help you). If you want to have a fair discussion with an accurate assessment you really need to understand the basics of the minting process.
The problem is that you're asking "show me why it's not damage". That requires a lot of background info if you're unfamiliar with the minting process. Remember, people are already giving their time to help you. It would be unreasonable to expect them to spend a significant amount of time teaching you the minting process. You can get started here
https://www.usmint.gov/news/inside-the-mint/how-coins-are-made-coin-production-terminology
@Jgrabocoin If you are unwilling to believe the experts here, please prove them wrong by sending this specimen to our hosts for grading and follow up with the results. Perhaps you will have the last laugh.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
This forum IS brutal? I don't think so. My opinion is that many forum members, especially the experts, go overboard to help in answering questions. Especially questions from newbies to the forum. And in return they get trash talked by the newbie. It's a pattern. Am I the only one who notices? You guys around here are sometimes TOO nice.
OK. Here’s what ya do. Go to a Jeweler. Have them spot check these different areas by XRF. That WILL tell the composition of what you’re seeing. IF those coppery areas come back Copper and Not coppernickel....if the clad areas come back Coppernickel.....then the OP should present some delicious fried crow recipes to those adamant in the NO. ••••• Just sayin.....I’ve got NO opinion on this coin but XRF can give the answer.(though I’m certain many here will demand to see a certificate of compliance from a weights and measures bureau before they would accept an XRF readout)
This seems like a viable answer to what I’m seeing.
http://www.error-ref.com/partial-clad-layer-before-strike/
The linked coin looks very different from yours. If you can’t see that, it might be because you don’t want to.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here's what aa sintered planchet looks like.
This also has a copperish color but not spotty like the one in the OP.
Or, he could have looked at the coin I posted way up there
Zions, I knew I recognized that coin .....
piece broke off, note the definition along the edges.
>
note the letters are discolored like the surrounding area
Aside from the color, the OP's coin has surfaces that show signs of environmental damage.
But I guess it doesn't matter.
Once he joins PCGS it should cost another $75-100 to get the coin certified (or not) as a genuine error. So go ahead and send it in.