Help with Grade Estimates - Four RAW "High End" Early Large Cents
winesteven
Posts: 4,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have not taken the time to learn grading, so my "safety net" is buying coins already graded by PCGS, and having a trusted expert look at the coins in hand on my behalf before I make purchases.
I have a good friend who is looking to send to PCGS for grading the following four coins (to me, the coins in the photos look really nice). I let him know that this forum has many experts, and while trying to estimate a grade from a photo is so much more difficult than the difficult task of trying to grade a coin in hand, it seems like they do an excellent job here on a regular basis.
These photos were taken from his phone, and I hope they're acceptable enough to allow the experts here to make a fair guess.
Thanks so much in advance. Once he has the grades, we'll report back:
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Comments
difficult to give an accurate grade from these pictures but the first one looks cleaned
Pretty coins though as keets has said first does not look totally original.
I always like Tom Reynolds displays at shows.
The 1818 color looks of to me. I would guess it gets an altered color. Hope I am wrong.
Grading copper is tricky for me especially from photos.
1 and 2 look possibly cleaned. 1 has a lighter halo around the portrait which can be indicative of Retoning. 2 has an odd shine and splotchy color.
3 may have environmental damage or staining in left obverse field and on reverse about 7-8 o’clock.
4 looks ok but it’s hard to tell.
If the color in the images is accurate, I’m concerned that none of them are original and that each has been cleaned and/or recolored.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They look like someone went overboard with a camel hair brush and care.
None look original to me either, all look to have been worked in some way and recolored ... just not natural.
my 2c, as I am not an expert on early copper
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
With #2 looking like a textbook example.
Agree with the others; the first two Randall hoard coins are undoubtedly mint state, but likely not original surfaces. The later coins are high AU or possibly MS, but seem to have additional surface issues.
There’s always the possibility that one or two may slip by and straight grade, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
I think the first three have altered surfaces.
The fourth coin might squeak by as low MS, but likely not if submitted with the others.
(Guilty by association.)
The 1818 has an attractive peripheral die crack, but I have to go along with the others on the surfaces.
I’ll add that if your friend still submits these, please post them for us.
If based on our testimony he decides not to, let him know that the coins as-is are not worthless, just “worth less”.....there are many doctored large cents around, and there is still a market for them, at the right price.
I join the consensus above. Copper is always a challenge, especially from pictures. If your friend does submit them, please let us know the results. Always an opportunity for learning. Cheers, RickO
Grading MS large cents from photos is exceptionally difficult. I would advise sticking to examples that have already been slabbed and straight graded. If offered those coins raw I would assume that they have been worked on and would discount them heavily. There are still a lot of large cent collectors who want their coins raw but I doubt if that will remain the case in future years.
All of them are "hoard" representatives and relatively common even in UNC. The first two appear cleaned, the third might have corrosion, and the last appears to be a brown UNC example but perhaps recolored.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
I have not taken the time to learn grading
shouldn't this be one of the things every collectors does, learn how to grade?? even the shortest amount of time spent here should show that even encapsulated coins can be mis-graded or low end, so why would someone not want to have at least an idea of how to grade??
I do have an idea of how to grade, and I agree with the point you make. However, to answer your question about recognizing and dealing with the plethora of mis-graded and low end coins in the marketplace, my strategy is two fold:
1. Buy coins with CAC's, which in theory are solid for the grade.
2. More importantly, I have access to what I have determined are unbiased professionals who look at each coin that interests me directly in hand, and let me know if I should pull the trigger. About 80% of time I think the photos look good, they tell me to pass.
The above system is not perfect, but overall it seems to work pretty well. Learning how to be a darn good grader is not perfect either, but that too should also work pretty well.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I'll share an adage spoken by Al Lindner, a famous fisherman who used to host a show called "The In-Fisherman" that I learned from. not verbatim, but it went something like this: Following what someone else tells you to do breeds dependence, following your own direction breeds confidence. After hearing that I began to experiment more with lure selection when I was walking the Grand River. what was the result --- it turned me from being a student into being a teacher.
I think you'll understand how that applies to our Hobby and the ability to grade.
I don't disagree, but there's also another adage - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Regardless, I do appreciate the positive spirit of your suggestion, and as noted, i do not disagree. I just choose to not put in that time.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
i love this forum. you guys hit the very first things i was going to comment about.
when it comes to large cents, imo, learning to grade isn't usually the main focus ironically, most other series it is. of course knowing how the grading services handle various large cent "improvements" is another subject.
I've sent a lot of similar coins in with good results, so let me take a guess. People on this forum told me my large cents were non-original, wouldn't grade what I thought, etc., but it was actually just that they didn't like the non-professional photos. Once I got a macro lens, all of my coins became more popular - but PCGS still grades them the same.
1817 - PCGS MS64 BN
1818 - PCGS AU58 BN (fairly confident on this one due to submitting two nearly identical coins)
1833 - PCGS AU53 BN- that dark stain is a problem, though
1837 - PCGS AU55 BN