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Toned Silver Dollars - Opinions
DuncanWylieWilson
Posts: 98 ✭✭
Hello all.
Alas, the topic of toned coins is here again. How do you tell when a silver coin has been artificially toned? I have attached photos of a nice set of toned silver dollars for reference - the Eisenhower and Susan B Anthony silver dollars.
I love the Apollo 11 design on these coins and I think they look great toned.
Would the toning on these coins be considered natural or artificial? How does one tell?
Look forward to your input!
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I am not a fan of tarnish, but both of those are in the negative eye appeal imo, all those spots.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That’s fair enough. We all have our things! Do you think the toning is natural here? Cheers!
I think those could be considered natural toning. Maybe a little ugly, but natural. I don't see any signs of acceleration, and the silver toned somewhat like you could expect from Proofs placed in the holder pictured (it could go a myriad of ways, but this is one).
I like the toning on the IKE (slight positive), although the larger spots hold it back a little ... and am overall negative on the SBA.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I like the 77-S Ike. I have seen coins like that make it into PCGS holders. This one is on Coinfacts, 68 DCAM:
https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/21752799_32656747_2200.jpg
Looks NT to me. I like the Ike.
I do agree that the spotting pulls these coins down a bit, but I love the toning on both of them. I’ve seen others with lesser toning and fewer spots, but they didn’t match the toning on the Ike here.
Out of interest, what are the telling signs of accelerated toning?
Thanks! What sort of things should we look for when discerning AT from NT coins?
Such a hard question to answer ...
and so, since I'm not sure I can at the moment, I'll answer with a terrible quote for who I don't know who to attribute ...
"Kind of like pornography ... I know it when I see it"
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
The color looks believable to me. The color would be from sulfides outgassing from the cardboard holder it is in, plus some excess humidity might have been involved. Borderline environmental damage though because of the spots. You might want to remove the coins from that holder to stop the toning process while you still like the appearance or the spots might get bigger and start eating into the coin surface too much.
Here’s some fake ones, for a reference. I toned these years ago to make educational artificial toning displays when I was in the Charlotte coin club to teach people how to detect artificial toned coins.
And here’s a coin being artificially toned showing the usual progression of colors you see most often on artificially toned coins. I took a picture every few seconds as the film on the coin grew thicker during the toning process. You can stop the process at any of these colors and/or do it unevenly to get rainbows of the same colors. I used to make displays in capital holders showing each of the colors in that same order to show people the progression of colors that you see on most artificially toned ones. The purplish red/blue on a couple of the images is a common giveaway that coins are artificially toned. It’s hard to avoid that purplish red/blue on artificially toned coins and it usually isn’t present much on naturally toned ones. Also notice how the toning goes right up and over the raised letters and images. That’s another common giveaway because there is usually a break in the toning around the letters and raised images because of microscopic metal flow lines. Some call it the pull away effect. It’s usually not present on artificial toned coins, but sometimes it’s not present on naturally toned coins if something made the toning happen quicker than normal like from high humidity and then it’s usually accompanied like spots like on yours.
Mr_Spud
That's a good visual tutorial, Mr_Spud. But there's some AT coins that are very deceptive. It's hard to explain-you have to develop an "eye" to detect some of the AT jobs.
Look at as many slabbed toned coins as you can.
Thank you for your very informative post! Great photos and information! What sort of holders would be preferable here? Standard plastic capsules, direct fit, foam inserts or something else?
I’d go for the plastic capsule to stop the toning where it is at.
Mr_Spud
I stopped this one from toning more by getting PCGS to slab it after I bought a cheap display case of Susan B Anthony dollars that made some of them tone pretty. If left in that case it probably would have started spotting soon.
Mr_Spud
Perfect! Thank you for your input. You can really see the difference between some of your deliberately AT examples and those that are natural.
Some on eBay are outrageously obvious, but others are a little harder to discern.
@MrSpud That is a stunning coin!!! If mine didn’t have the sports I’d probably have it slabbed too. Looks like it’s just a generic capsule for me! 😁
Thanks. If you look at the coin carefully you can see a bunch of very small spots, most noticeable around the stars on the obverse, that would have grown bigger if I’d of left it in the display case it was in
Mr_Spud
And here’s one more group picture I still have from back then showing that same purplish red/blue on most of them
Mr_Spud
It is what "naturally" happens when the coins are in low quality, non-archival cardboard. Whether you consider it "artificial" (the cardboard did it) or "natural" (the cardboard did it naturally) is something of a religious argument.
Sent in for grading, those coins could come back AT or they might straight grade. I know a dealer who had a whole bunch of ASEs that were in cardboard like that and toned "naturally" but they came back "questionable color" when he sent them in.
I have to agree with you there. I do. Like you say, it's a 'religious argument.' I just really liked the toning here - particularly on the Ike. I know that some folks used chemicals and heat treatment on the coins to artificially tone them or accelerate the process. I think these two silver dollars have simply been in that cheap cardboard insert for too long. Removing them and putting them in a decent capsule is my priority. I don't want any more spotting to occur. The spotting isn't too bad on the Ike, but it's fairly unsightly on the SBA silver dollar.
I doubt I will send these two in for grading due to the spotting. And, like you say, they might come back as questionable anyway. Toning does look natural here to me, but I wanted to check with other members first. I tend to collect Indian Head half and quarter eagles, but these two silver dollars caught my eye. I'll probably just chuck the cardboard insert, haha.
Does anybody else used these coin capsules with the foam inserts? If so, what're your thoughts on them? Was thinking about putting these silver dollars in the same ones.
Cheers!
The AT/NT debate has been going on for as long as I have been on this forum. There is excellent information posted above, and meshes with experimentation I did several years ago. In fact, when done by the experts, AT is virtually undetectable...and examples do reside in slabs. Tarnish is a naturally occurring process...and a result of the environment in which the coin is stored. The A part, in AT, is really appropriately termed 'Accelerated'... since the natural process is forced to occur quickly by introduction of heat, humidity, chemicals or some combination thereof.
No matter the process, it is all environmental damage. As such, I do not care for tarnish of any type. Cheers, RickO
The A part, in AT, is really appropriately termed 'Accelerated'... since the natural process is forced to occur quickly by introduction of heat, humidity, chemicals or some combination thereof.
I agree with you here. The chemical processes by which the toning occurs are largely the same, but the rate at which they have occurred is different.
In my examples here I think the cheap cardboard insert is largely responsible - perhaps alongside humidity issues. Nevertheless, I do like the toning on the Ike. Shame about the spotting on the SBA.
Each to their own!
Cheers! @ricko
A others have noted natural can be defined in many ways. If you consider placing coins next to a high sulfur cardboard and then storing that in a high heat/humidity condition then yes its natural. The real truth is that all tone/tarnish is environmental damage, some of it is considered pretty and some not, but if left alone it will eventually become terminal in every case. Back to your question I would say that many would consider these as natural, now will a TPG consider it natural is anybody's guess.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I like the pics of the coins in their holder. They are pleasing, leave them as is. The juiced photos make the coins look terrible.
Won’t the spotting become worse over time if left in the cardboard? Another member noted this as a possibility.
Cheers!
Looks like NT to me.
Thank you for your input! Do you think removing these coins from their cardboard holder would be for the best? Some members say it could cause further spotting.
Don't know enough! Sorry bro
No worries, haha! I'm actually a chemist, but it hasn't helped me any with discerning the chemistry and physical conditions required for some of the wild toning! I'll leave that to the experts on here!
Cheers!
Is that a hard plastic case around those dollars? I ask because I have seen similar toning added from soft pvc coverings. If so remember to give them an acetone bath.
PS. those dollars are copper/nickel clad and not sure if you can really call them silver dollars.
Thank you for your input here! The two 'silver' dollars are inserted into cardboard and then inside a hard plastic case. Also, you are correct. They are indeed cupronickel-clad rather than the silver issues.
I assume the purpose of an acetone bath would be to remove any residual PVC or other plastic? Acetone is fairly effective at doing that, haha. How long would you suggest submersion?
Some of those type of after market holders have a soft plastic type cover that smells like shower curtains when stretched. This is made with poly vinyl chloride (PVC) that reacts with metal after years of contact. It starts with a light film and then starts reacting with the metal, showing something like an emerald green liquid. Eventually this will start eating into the metal. If there are signs of pvc on the coin, companies will not slab them. Pure acetone removes this film. This film if present sometimes add to the 'toning' of a coin.
I'll give these a dip before putting them in their foam capsules. Cheers!