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If the Steelers win the Super Bowl, where does Roethlisberger rank all time?

craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have to think that the following would still be ranked higher than ben:
Montana
Brady
Otto Graham
John Unitas
Manning

what about
Marino
elway
Baugh
staubach
Moon
Brees

«1

Comments

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Brees and Tarkenton better than Ben for sure. Probably Marino, Favre, Rodgers and Elway as good, if not better.

    Championships don't factor in much for me in team sports.

    I would say Brees is in the top three with Brady and Manning, any of which would be a fine choice as the GOAT.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I forgot to add Rogers and Favre. As much as I cant stand him, Rogers is better. Favre, I am not sure of. I would say they are pretty evenly matched when all is said and done.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Brees and Tarkenton better than Ben for sure. Probably Marino, Favre, Rodgers and Elway as good, if not better.

    Championships don't factor in much for me in team sports.

    I would say Brees is in the top three with Brady and Manning, any of which would be a fine choice as the GOAT.

    would you rank Brees above Montana, Graham and Unitas? While Graham and Unitas´ raw stats dont look nearly as good as Brees, in context, they were monsters.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 21,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I respect Big Bens game, he has been fortunate to have some very quality players on his side of the ball though. I look at him as a very good QB but wouldn’t want him if I absolutely needed a game winning drive, I’d take a Brady, Manning or Brees over him

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    I respect Big Bens game, he has been fortunate to have some very quality players on his side of the ball though. I look at him as a very good QB but wouldn’t want him if I absolutely needed a game winning drive, I’d take a Brady, Manning or Brees over him

    I agree wholeheartedly on Brady and Manning. Both of them are a clear tick above Ben. I am not so sold on Brees though.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    I respect Big Bens game, he has been fortunate to have some very quality players on his side of the ball though. I look at him as a very good QB but wouldn’t want him if I absolutely needed a game winning drive, I’d take a Brady, Manning or Brees over him

    I agree wholeheartedly on Brady and Manning. Both of them are a clear tick above Ben. I am not so sold on Brees though.

    Yeah, who would want the guy with the 2nd most game winning drives in their career and likely to be the leader before retirement. That would be a silly choice when you need a game winning drive: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LarkinCollector said:

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    I respect Big Bens game, he has been fortunate to have some very quality players on his side of the ball though. I look at him as a very good QB but wouldn’t want him if I absolutely needed a game winning drive, I’d take a Brady, Manning or Brees over him

    I agree wholeheartedly on Brady and Manning. Both of them are a clear tick above Ben. I am not so sold on Brees though.

    Yeah, who would want the guy with the 2nd most game winning drives in their career and likely to be the leader before retirement. That would be a silly choice when you need a game winning drive: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

    Brees has been a dome QB since his days as a saint. When it comes to playoff time, there is a fairly good chance you will be playing outside in inclimate weather. That is why Brady would be my number one. I know Manning was also a dome QB during his time as a colt, but he did play outdoors as a Bronco.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,040 ✭✭✭✭✭

    enough with Drew Brees please penalized 43% for being a dome pansy

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still remember that play against the Colts in the playoffs, when Bettis lost the football on the goal line, and Nick Harper scooped it up and took off. If Ben hadn't tripped Harper up, that first Super Bowl ring wouldn't have happened.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ben Roethlisberger has been better throughout his career than any currently active QB not named Tom Brady.

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Brees has played 1 game in the last 9 years where the temp was below 40 degrees. in that one game, it was 39 degrees.

    I believe since he came to the saints, he has played 15 games below 40 degrees. saints have gone 7-8. I do not have his individual statistics for those games. If I am playing outside in the weather in the playoffs, Brees is not my guy

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A solid QB with limited motorcycle riding skills.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So you're shifting your argument from dome to temp now that the dome vs outdoor is easily disproven? :D He did fine outdoors in cold weather his entire college career. Just own up to not liking Brees, it's fine.

    Since 2002, Brees has only had two seasons where he played less than 15 games.
    Since 2001, Brady the same.
    Since 2004 , Roethlisberger has had 7.

    Give me the QB who can stay on the field, not watching from the sidelines.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LarkinCollector said:
    So you're shifting your argument from dome to temp now that the dome vs outdoor is easily disproven? :D He did fine outdoors in cold weather his entire college career. Just own up to not liking Brees, it's fine.

    Since 2002, Brees has only had two seasons where he played less than 15 games.
    Since 2001, Brady the same.
    Since 2004 , Roethlisberger has had 7.

    Give me the QB who can stay on the field, not watching from the sidelines.

    argument is not shifted. can i ask you why does playing in a dome help statistics? I will answer it for you. It is because it is climate controlled with perfect turf every time. comparing how players do when it is cold or otherwise inclimate weather only extrapolates on this original concept.

    when examining Brees record indoors vs. outdoors, there is a clear difference. he is around 8 to 10 QB rating points worse outside. now why do you think that is? most likely because it is not climate controlled. that is why I brought up cold weather games. It is DIRECTLY related to playing inside a dome or outside.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a home vs road thing, nothing to do with dome vs outside. Why does Brady have a bigger dropoff in domes than when outside than Brees does in reverse?

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020 11:55AM

    Some people think that you shouldn't rank the QBs in a way that relies too much on SB wins.

    Some people think that you shouldn't rank the QBs in a way that relies just on the statistics.

    Etc.

    When I put everything I know about the careers of Brady and Brees (and Manning), including the stats, the weather, the stadiums, and the SBs, into an imaginary sports centrifuge in my mind, Brady comes out the GOAT.

    Edited to remove duplicate words

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,040 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LarkinCollector said:
    So you're shifting your argument from dome to temp now that the dome vs outdoor is easily disproven? :D He did fine outdoors in cold weather his entire college career. Just own up to not liking Brees, it's fine.

    Since 2002, Brees has only had two seasons where he played less than 15 games.
    Since 2001, Brady the same.
    Since 2004 , Roethlisberger has had 7.

    Give me the QB who can stay on the field, not watching from the sidelines.

    what does college have to do with real football?

    College football is garbage ;)

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭✭

    Roethlisberger has had a great career but I've never seen him as a guy at the top of the peak with Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees. He used to be sort of mobile but hasn't been for quite a while. Because of that, he takes a ridiculous amount of heavy hits that those other guys never did, leading to him being injured all the time. He gets sacked 33% more often than Brady, for example. Mind you, when I say mobile, I mean able to move around in the pocket, not run. Brady & Manning have no foot speed whatsoever but they could move around. Ben can't.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LarkinCollector said:
    It's a home vs road thing, nothing to do with dome vs outside. Why does Brady have a bigger dropoff in domes than when outside than Brees does in reverse?

    wrong.
    you have cherry picked your stats. you have left out 6 1/2 years of bradys career. It is not at all about home and away, at least for brady. it seems to have everything to do with domes. the formatting sucks, but for his career, brady has performed significantly better in domes. QB rating of 108.4 vs 96.3. when it comes to home and away it is almost the same: 98.1 vs 95.9
    Stadium dome 16 12 4 0 334 492 158 67.89 4197 36 12 108.4 22 132 8.53 8.90 30.8 262.3 38 48 1.26 2 2.4 3.0 0 0 0 0 0.0% 0.0 0.0 2 12 5 1 0 1 -1 0 0 0 0
    outdoors 269 207 62 0 6057 9515 3458 63.66 70076 506 165 96.3 470 2947 7.36 7.65 35.4 260.5 563 953 1.69 21 2.1 3.5 3 3 65 21.67 0 100.0% 2

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Brees and Tarkenton better than Ben for sure. Probably Marino, Favre, Rodgers and Elway as good, if not better.

    Championships don't factor in much for me in team sports.

    I would say Brees is in the top three with Brady and Manning, any of which would be a fine choice as the GOAT.

    would you rank Brees above Montana, Graham and Unitas? While Graham and Unitas´ raw stats dont look nearly as good as Brees, in context, they were monsters.

    Hard to compare to Graham and Unitas. Graham only played (fantastically) for 10 years and Unitas actually does stack up pretty well with 12 to 14 top 10 seasons. I would rank Unitas ahead of Ben but not by much.

    Brady, Brees Tarkenton and Manning seem to be slightly ahead of the rest because of most season being a top 10 performer, they all have about 15 top 10 seasons in several categories. While I always liked Montana, he is about at 10 seasons as a top 10 performer.

    Big Ben is around 10 top 10 seasons as well. I would not rank him quite as high, but he might play for a while longer? As stated, he's been hurt some and missed some games.

    I really couldn't care less about dome games or cold weather games. Championships might mean a little, but not much.

    Another way to look at QB's is Approximate Value, the top three are Manning and Brady with Brees slightly behind. Favre and Tarkenton are tied for 9th.

    Ben is ranked slightly ahead of Joe in AV.

    Surprising to see Phillip Rivers ranks pretty high. Has he ever missed a game?

    It would seem longevity has a lot to do with the Approximate Value statistic. By the way, Ken Anderson is ranked right there with Fouts and Montana!

    I don't think you can really determine who the GOAT is here these guys were ALL awesome players.

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  • coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 493 ✭✭✭

    Top ten all time for sure. If he wins another bowl this year I would put him ahead of Brees.

  • DarinDarin Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭✭

    JoeBanzai- I don't think Rivers has missed a game since becoming a starter.
    He's good but doesn't seem to perform well in the big games. Never has won a big game that I know of.
    No MVP's, no Super Bowls and a ho hum 5-6 playoff record in all his years in SD.



  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    Surprising to see Phillip Rivers ranks pretty high. Has he ever missed a game?

    No, he's never missed a game since Brees left.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020 12:39AM

    @Darin said:
    JoeBanzai- I don't think Rivers has missed a game since becoming a starter.
    He's good but doesn't seem to perform well in the big games. Never has won a big game that I know of.
    No MVP's, no Super Bowls and a ho hum 5-6 playoff record in all his years in SD.

    And he's also under .500 over the last decade. He started out hot, winning 14, 11, 8, and 13 games in his first four seasons. Since then, he's 83-86. That's obviously not all his fault (just as Matthew Stafford's horrible record isn't his fault) but Rivers definitely seems to have a tendency to seize up at least a few times each season. He throws a ton of picks and that hurts his team a lot. Heck, since 2013, he actually has a worse record than Stafford. Think about that.

  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ben ranks in the top 25 QB’s of all time. No more, no less.

    In remembrance of James W Brennan Sr.
    1924-1982
    Dad, Thanks for everything you did for me.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darin said:
    JoeBanzai- I don't think Rivers has missed a game since becoming a starter.
    He's good but doesn't seem to perform well in the big games. Never has won a big game that I know of.
    No MVP's, no Super Bowls and a ho hum 5-6 playoff record in all his years in SD.

    @Tabe said:

    @Darin said:
    JoeBanzai- I don't think Rivers has missed a game since becoming a starter.
    He's good but doesn't seem to perform well in the big games. Never has won a big game that I know of.
    No MVP's, no Super Bowls and a ho hum 5-6 playoff record in all his years in SD.

    And he's also under .500 over the last decade. He started out hot, winning 14, 11, 8, and 13 games in his first four seasons. Since then, he's 83-86. That's obviously not all his fault (just as Matthew Stafford's horrible record isn't his fault) but Rivers definitely seems to have a tendency to seize up at least a few times each season. He throws a ton of picks and that hurts his team a lot. Heck, since 2013, he actually has a worse record than Stafford. Think about that.

    Yes to everything you guys point out. No, I am not putting him ahead of John Elway, who he is ranked just ahead of in "Approximate Value" BUT if you remember back before 1997 and 1998 Elway was pretty harshly criticized for "big game" performance with a 7-7 record in the playoffs.

    Rivers looks like he was an awfully "Valuable" player 2006-2013, except for 2012.

    Tying this in with the OP's question about Ben, I would say that Rivers gets hurt by having played for generally weaker TEAMS , Roethlisberger may be a fine QB, but he has played on much better teams and TEAMS win championships, not individuals.

    Look at the defense Ben played with from 2005-2008, best in the NFL over that time?

    Rivers defenses were good in 2006 and 2007, but pretty bad since then.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Darin said:
    JoeBanzai- I don't think Rivers has missed a game since becoming a starter.
    He's good but doesn't seem to perform well in the big games. Never has won a big game that I know of.
    No MVP's, no Super Bowls and a ho hum 5-6 playoff record in all his years in SD.

    And he's also under .500 over the last decade. He started out hot, winning 14, 11, 8, and 13 games in his first four seasons. Since then, he's 83-86. That's obviously not all his fault (just as Matthew Stafford's horrible record isn't his fault) but Rivers definitely seems to have a tendency to seize up at least a few times each season. He throws a ton of picks and that hurts his team a lot. Heck, since 2013, he actually has a worse record than Stafford. Think about that.

    Stafford is one hell of a Quarterback. His team is a disaster, they have been for a long time.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 493 ✭✭✭

    Big Ben is 7th in all time passing yards, and 5th all time in playoff games. After this season, he could move up to #3 behind Brady and Manning.

  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coolstanley said:
    Big Ben is 7th in all time passing yards, and 5th all time in playoff games. After this season, he could move up to #3 behind Brady and Manning.

    Stats are great but meaningless as they don’t account for different eras. When talking all time QB’s, receivers etc a 1920 stat doesn’t stand up to a 2020 stat. To me Joe Montana is #2 on my list as the GOAT. I have no idea where his stats line up with Brees, Rivers or Ben but I can tell you he’s better than all 3.

    In remembrance of James W Brennan Sr.
    1924-1982
    Dad, Thanks for everything you did for me.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020 10:32AM

    @2dueces said:

    @coolstanley said:
    Big Ben is 7th in all time passing yards, and 5th all time in playoff games. After this season, he could move up to #3 behind Brady and Manning.

    Stats are great but meaningless as they don’t account for different eras. When talking all time QB’s, receivers etc a 1920 stat doesn’t stand up to a 2020 stat. To me Joe Montana is #2 on my list as the GOAT. I have no idea where his stats line up with Brees, Rivers or Ben but I can tell you he’s better than all 3.

    I agree wholeheartedly that trying to compare Otto Graham to any modern day QB is going to be pretty much impossible.

    What I won't agree with is that so many use the winning % and Championship factors by themselves.

    Using Rivers as an example, he was judged as great, by one of the previous posts, for his first few years. He had LaDainian Tomlinson in his prime and the number 5 and 7 points allowed defenses playing with him. Tomlinson dropped off by 2008, the same year the defense dropped to 15th in points allowed. Yet Rivers was pretty fantastic (except for 2012) until 2013.

    He's both one of the top in completion % and yards per pass attempt. This shows that he isn't just throwing short easier to complete passes.

    I haven't seen much of him play, so I am at a loss there, but he sure looks like a top tier QB to me. Unfortunate his defense has been average to below for virtually his entire career.

    Sure would have liked to see him Play for the Vikings instead of all the guys they had. Brad Johnson, Tarvaris Jackson, Gus Ferrotte, Brett Favre was good for one year, Christian Ponder, Matt Cassell, Ted Bridgewater, Sam Bradford, and Case Keenum.

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  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If only Championships counted Marino would be 20th and Namath would be ahead of 86 of them. Joe changed the game but he’s not one of the greatest and I like Joe. Jack Kemp had more interceptions than touchdowns but has 2 AFL titles. Better than Marino? You bet!!!
    J/K

    In remembrance of James W Brennan Sr.
    1924-1982
    Dad, Thanks for everything you did for me.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think era needs to be considered. There also needs to be some acknowledgement to post season performance.

    As far as a thrower of the football, I have never seen anyone better than Marino. I think Manning may have been as good, Brady as well. I never saw Graham play, but he did dominate the statistical leaderboard of his time and also won 7 titles. for the whole package, It may come down to Brady and Graham.

  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I think era needs to be considered. There also needs to be some acknowledgement to post season performance.

    As far as a thrower of the football, I have never seen anyone better than Marino. I think Manning may have been as good, Brady as well. I never saw Graham play, but he did dominate the statistical leaderboard of his time and also won 7 titles. for the whole package, It may come down to Brady and Graham.

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this statement.

    In remembrance of James W Brennan Sr.
    1924-1982
    Dad, Thanks for everything you did for me.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I think era needs to be considered. There also needs to be some acknowledgement to post season performance.

    As far as a thrower of the football, I have never seen anyone better than Marino. I think Manning may have been as good, Brady as well. I never saw Graham play, but he did dominate the statistical leaderboard of his time and also won 7 titles. for the whole package, It may come down to Brady and Graham.

    To make a fair comparison, things need to be somewhat equal.

    Back in the 1960's a 50% completion rate was acceptable and the QB's threw the ball less and usually farther downfield. Interceptions were always bad, but not quite looked down upon as they are now.

    It seems to me the QB ratings favor the modern day QB's because(?) the game has changed from a running attack to more of a passing game. Quarterbacks also called the plays back then, meaning they had to do more than just complete passes for a high percentage.

    On the acknowledgement of playoff performance, it gets unfair for guys like Fouts and even Rivers and of course Marino when they played a major portion of their careers for teams that had poor defenses and/or lousy offensive "skill" players.

    Brady certainly has the most playoff appearances and success, but I hardly rate him as the passer Dan Marino was. I certainly give Brady credit for his 17 times making the playoffs, but he played on better teams than Marino, who made it 10 times.

    Does anyone honestly think Brady wins 5 or 6 Super Bowls if he played for Miami instead of New England?

    Graham's playoff record is outstanding, but he had a shorter career than any of the other QB's mentioned here and please look at the teams he played with, they were LOADED with great players.

    Ken Anderson gets laughed at when people bring him up. He led the league in highest passer rating 4 times to Brady's 2 times to Marino's 1 time, but since he played for generally horrible teams he gets downgraded. He played with one pretty good WR, Isaac Curtis, for most of his career and really no good running backs.

    The years Cincinnati had good defenses, they were competing against the great Steelers and Dolphins teams. Both of those teams had quite a few HOF offensive players helping out QB's not (in my opinion) as good as Anderson.

    Good teams win championships. Giving one player too much credit doesn't make sense to me.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Joe, while you are correct that good teams win championships, I do feel the QB position is certainly the most important. Probably the most important single position in sports. You can have a terrific defense, even an all time great defense, but without even an average QB you loose the big one. I think it was the 06 Bears whose defense was all time, but they still lost to a great QB (manning) in the end.

    I will make a distinction, that the above is mostly for the modern game. Years ago, when the running game was more integral, the QB position was a bit less important.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020 7:43AM

    @craig44 said:
    Joe, while you are correct that good teams win championships, I do feel the QB position is certainly the most important. Probably the most important single position in sports. You can have a terrific defense, even an all time great defense, but without even an average QB you loose the big one. I think it was the 06 Bears whose defense was all time, but they still lost to a great QB (manning) in the end.

    I will make a distinction, that the above is mostly for the modern game. Years ago, when the running game was more integral, the QB position was a bit less important.

    I absolutely agree that the QB is the most important offensive player, but when you start saying a QB is a better player because he played on Championship teams you have to start taking MUCH more into consideration.

    Brady came in and quickly won 3 SB's. The years 2001-2004 they won the SB three out of the four years. Their defense ranked #6, #1 and #2. The year they missed the playoffs (2002) the defense dropped to #17.

    I looked at the 9 victories against mostly good but not great teams and saw Brady was the big factor in the 2003 SB with a drive to win the game at the end of regulation and he really dominated the Steelers in the 2004 AFC Championship game. He played well in the 2004 SB but the defense intercepted 3 passes that day and sacked McNabb 4 times, equally important in the victory.

    The best team they were beating those years was the Colts with Manning, in 2003 and 2004 and both of those victories belong to the defense and (in 2004) the defense and Cory Dillon, who rushed for 144 yards against the Colts.

    Brady never played poorly, but in most of these games he was little more than a efficient game manager, which is not a bad thing. He did play very well in 2004, no doubt about it. especially against the Steelers in the AFC Championship.

    The next 9 post season games Brady was just not very good, including 2 three interception games against the Chargers that the defense won. Brady was able to beat the likes of Tim Tebow and Joe Flacco, but not Eli Manning. Three straight SB losses.

    Tom bounces back well in his next 12 games though going 3-1 in SB's. 2014 he played very well in every game ending with leading his team to 14 points in the 4th quarter to beat the Seahawks. 2016 was the historic choke by the Falcons, but to his credit, Brady played well, and the defense woke up. Tom played great against Philadelphia, but lost the SB. Finally the 2018 team won because no one could run the ball against them, they were pretty lucky to beat the Chiefs in OT.

    Looking at the defense for the Patriots in SB years, you see them ranked #6, #1, #2, #2, #4, #15, #8, #1, #5 and #7 in points allowed during the regular season. Think that MIGHT be a factor in their success? BTW the only year they were out of the top 10 (#15 in 2011) they lost the SB.

    Good teams win championships, Brady won a majority of these games by playing good solid QB. He made some very nice 4th quarter and OT drives, but had he not had some terrific players stopping the opponents, it wouldn't have mattered. I would respectfully claim that the defense was a bigger factor in most of these victories.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    very true that 1/2 of the game is defense. and the Patriots had a great one for bradys first SB run. as far as him playing well and being a game manager in the first 3 bowls, I would add that he didnt exactly have the most potent weapons to use on offense. he had one really great season out of troy brown, then he was throwing to guys like david givins, deion branch etc. He had a good check down option in kevin faulk and one terrific year out of corey dillon. His super stat seasons didnt start till Moss and Welker came aboard.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    Joe, while you are correct that good teams win championships, I do feel the QB position is certainly the most important. Probably the most important single position in sports. You can have a terrific defense, even an all time great defense, but without even an average QB you loose the big one. I think it was the 06 Bears whose defense was all time, but they still lost to a great QB (manning) in the end.

    I will make a distinction, that the above is mostly for the modern game. Years ago, when the running game was more integral, the QB position was a bit less important.

    Let's look at the 2006 Colts. Their defense was horrible during the regular season and they lost 4 out of their last 7 games but in the playoffs the defense held the Chiefs to one score and the Ravens to 2 field goals.

    They won in a shootout against the GOAT Brady, although the Pats scored on a pick 6, and they beat the Bears in the SB by allowing only 10 points. The other 7 came on a kick-off return.

    I would say the defense won the Ravens game when Manning had a TERRIBLE game, so without that defensive performance Manning is out in the second game and gets RIPPED for stinking up the place. Instead he wins the SB. At LEAST two of the four wins were won because the defense came up BIG!

    @craig44 said:
    very true that 1/2 of the game is defense. and the Patriots had a great one for bradys first SB run. as far as him playing well and being a game manager in the first 3 bowls, I would add that he didnt exactly have the most potent weapons to use on offense. he had one really great season out of troy brown, then he was throwing to guys like david givins, deion branch etc. He had a good check down option in kevin faulk and one terrific year out of corey dillon. His super stat seasons didnt start till Moss and Welker came aboard.

    The Patriots had great defenses in EVERY SB run with the possible exception of 2011.

    In 2006 and 2007 they were #2 and #4 on defense and#7 and #1 on offense and still lost the SB.

    In 2016 they were #1 on defense and were very fortunate to win.

    In 2017 they were #5 on defense and lost.

    The fact that he didn't have HOF offensive weapons only proves my point that a great defense and great quarterback will have success, while a great quarterback and an average defense usually don't make the playoffs. Manning is a perfect example, all those years with Indy having a great offense and his playoff record is better when he was an old man with Denver and a good defense.

    I went over every SB run made by the Patriots and Brady absolutely had a few great moments and some REALLY BAD games where his defense bailed him out. Look at the two victories in the playoffs over the Colts in 2003 and 2004, games won by the defense. Had Manning's team won and gone on to win the SB those two years, how many more people would pick him as the GOAT?

    He didn't win any championships with "Regular Season" Randy Moss either. Proving that gutless chokers are as over rated as anyone.

    Bottom line for me is I think Brees, Manning and maybe a few others would have done as well, or even better (maybe) than Tom. He simply didn't play great in every year they won the SB, and when you give him all the credit, I think it's incorrect.

    Don't get me wrong. Brady's as good as anyone when discussing the GOAT. I just don't think the SB wins are that much of a factor in a team sport.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Belichick has a 45% winning record without Brady.

    In remembrance of James W Brennan Sr.
    1924-1982
    Dad, Thanks for everything you did for me.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Vince Lombardi had a .754 record with the Packers but only a .583 with the Redskins.

    Must have forgotten how to coach.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,040 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    Sure would have liked to see him Play for the Vikings instead of all the guys they had. Brad Johnson, Tarvaris Jackson, Gus Ferrotte, Brett Favre was good for one year, Christian Ponder, Matt Cassell, Ted Bridgewater, Sam Bradford, and Case Keenum.

    I followed Tervaris Jacksons career for a while. He was married or maybe living with a woman I knew slightly. She was the daughter of a guy who was married to a friend of mine, Carlos . As I recall Travaris had a kid with this woman . The woman had a rare disease of some sort that the child also got (lupus maybe? ) I think the woman died and maybe the kid did too? this was maybe a decade ago . It was a whole sad business that played out over a few years beginning about the time with his cup of coffee with the Vikings .

    He was killed in a car accident this year himself . :(

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't know he had died.

    RIP

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I also didnt realize he had died. man, a sad last part of his life. too bad

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    very true that 1/2 of the game is defense. and the Patriots had a great one for bradys first SB run. as far as him playing well and being a game manager in the first 3 bowls, I would add that he didnt exactly have the most potent weapons to use on offense. he had one really great season out of troy brown, then he was throwing to guys like david givins, deion branch etc. He had a good check down option in kevin faulk and one terrific year out of corey dillon. His super stat seasons didnt start till Moss and Welker came aboard.

    We now know a lot about Brady that we didn't all necessarily know during that first year. Including the countless stories about his drive and relentless determination that willed him into being in that position in the first place. John Madden told everyone watching that NE needed to go into overtime on that final drive during that first SB. He essentially scoffed at the foolishness. But little did he know what we now all know. So my point is that, yes Brady wasn't the Brady he would become, but even that first SB was won in large part due to the intangibles that only Tom Brady brings. .....just my opinion.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @craig44 said:
    very true that 1/2 of the game is defense. and the Patriots had a great one for bradys first SB run. as far as him playing well and being a game manager in the first 3 bowls, I would add that he didnt exactly have the most potent weapons to use on offense. he had one really great season out of troy brown, then he was throwing to guys like david givins, deion branch etc. He had a good check down option in kevin faulk and one terrific year out of corey dillon. His super stat seasons didnt start till Moss and Welker came aboard.

    We now know a lot about Brady that we didn't all necessarily know during that first year. Including the countless stories about his drive and relentless determination that willed him into being in that position in the first place. John Madden told everyone watching that NE needed to go into overtime on that final drive during that first SB. He essentially scoffed at the foolishness. But little did he know what we now all know. So my point is that, yes Brady wasn't the Brady he would become, but even that first SB was won in large part due to the intangibles that only Tom Brady brings. .....just my opinion.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way saying that Brady wasn't one of the best ever, he certainly has a solid claim as the GOAT at the QB position.

    My point is that using post season success is being overvalued in the determination. He got into the playoffs so many times because his teams had great defenses year after year and some pretty good offenses and coaches and YES Tom was really, really good as well.

    People go on and on about his comebacks, which were great, but he also had some bad games in the playoffs as well, and his teams (not him) lost 4 Super Bowls.

    I'm pointing this out mainly to respond to the OP. Ben is an awesome QB, winning SB's is a team accomplishment, so it might raise his value a little, but wouldn't (in my opinion) bring him into the Brady, Manning, Brees category. I would rank several others above him as well, regardless of how well his team does.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    People go on and on about his comebacks, which were great, but he also had some bad games in the playoffs as well, and his teams (not him) lost 4 Super Bowls.

    Hey, c'mon now, he's only lost 3. :)

  • keetskeets Posts: 23,675 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020 7:41PM

    Otto Graham
    Montana
    Brady
    John Unitas
    Manning

    there, I fixed it for you.

    Tom Brady winning % --- .771
    Otto Graham winning % --- .802

    I guess you would need to ask yourself if you think Graham would have slipped if he'd played longer. that's reasonable. what do I ask myself?? what would Tom Brady have been like in the 1950's and what would Otto Graham be like today?? this is the impossible "Era Question" that can never be a answered. however, it is worth giving consideration to rules changes in place today which effectively shield a QB. he is allowed to "intentionally ground" the ball, he can't be accidentally touched on the head he can't be tackled below the thighs and a player can't land on him with all of his body weight. Otto Graham was a very mobile QB who would have done well today, but I suspect that Tom Brady would have had tough sledding.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=AuZW_ca77SQ

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_LjSjhjBCYs

    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    People go on and on about his comebacks, which were great, but he also had some bad games in the playoffs as well, and his teams (not him) lost 4 Super Bowls.

    Hey, c'mon now, he's only lost 3. :)

    They must have been a wild card team and went 2-1 one year.

    Put it this way he failed to win a Sb 11 times when reaching the playoffs.

    Did I get that one correct?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    Otto Graham
    Montana
    Brady
    John Unitas
    Manning

    there, I fixed it for you.

    Tom Brady winning % --- .771
    Otto Graham winning % --- .802

    I guess you would need to ask yourself if you think Graham would have slipped if he'd played longer. that's reasonable. what do I ask myself?? what would Tom Brady have been like in the 1950's and what would Otto Graham be like today?? this is the impossible "Era Question" that can never be a answered. however, it is worth giving consideration to rules changes in place today which effectively shield a QB. he is allowed to "intentionally ground" the ball, he can't be accidentally touched on the head he can't be tackled below the thighs and a player can't land on him with all of his body weight. Otto Graham was a very mobile QB who would have done well today, but I suspect that Tom Brady would have had tough sledding.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=AuZW_ca77SQ

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_LjSjhjBCYs

    Graham might or might not have slipped, but he had a short career.

    Generally speaking modern day QBs would have it tough in the "old days" with guys like Ben Davidson allowed to slug them in the heads.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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