@JoeBanzai said:
People go on and on about his comebacks, which were great, but he also had some bad games in the playoffs as well, and his teams (not him) lost 4 Super Bowls.
Hey, c'mon now, he's only lost 3.
They must have been a wild card team and went 2-1 one year.
Put it this way he failed to win a Sb 11 times when reaching the playoffs.
Did I get that one correct?
Yes.
Someone correct me please if I'm wrong.
In his seventeen seasons as a starter in NE, so not including his rookie year, he failed to win the SB in eleven of those.
He made the playoffs sixteen times. Reached the SB nine times. And won it six times.
Graham might or might not have slipped, but he had a short career.
when you consider this --- The average NFL career lasts 3.3 years, according to the NFL Players' Association --- I don't really think that Graham's 10 year career was short by anyone's standard(except maybe guys like Tom Brady or George Blanda). if you watch the links I provided it should be abundantly clear that Graham played at an extraordinarily high level for his entire career and resembled a "scrambler" when it was necessary, even though he was a more than adequate passer. in reality, he was closer in style to John Elway than he was to Tom Brady.
also, since when is it a knock on a player who chooses to get out of the game at the arguable peak of his career?? after retiring in 1954, Otto Graham was "lured" back for one season and the Browns won another NFL Championship, so it's clear he still had plenty left in the tank. would you also conclude, based on his only playing nine seasons, that Jim Brown would have slipped had he continued with his career??
there's nothing wrong with getting out at the top, more players should follow that example(Head Coaches, too).
for your consideration --- if Otto Graham had stuck around and played through the 1957 season when Jim Brown appeared on the scene, this discussion would probably be different.
@keets said: Graham might or might not have slipped, but he had a short career.
when you consider this --- The average NFL career lasts 3.3 years, according to the NFL Players' Association --- I don't really think that Graham's 10 year career was short by anyone's standard(except maybe guys like Tom Brady or George Blanda). if you watch the links I provided it should be abundantly clear that Graham played at an extraordinarily high level for his entire career and resembled a "scrambler" when it was necessary, even though he was a more than adequate passer. in reality, he was closer in style to John Elway than he was to Tom Brady.
also, since when is it a knock on a player who chooses to get out of the game at the arguable peak of his career?? after retiring in 1954, Otto Graham was "lured" back for one season and the Browns won another NFL Championship, so it's clear he still had plenty left in the tank. would you also conclude, based on his only playing nine seasons, that Jim Brown would have slipped had he continued with his career??
there's nothing wrong with getting out at the top, more players should follow that example(Head Coaches, too).
for your consideration --- if Otto Graham had stuck around and played through the 1957 season when Jim Brown appeared on the scene, this discussion would probably be different.
Completely agree with your entire post. Especially that he most likely would have been better with JB in the same backfield.
However we are comparing him to Brady, Brees etc and even Tarkenton (well, I am), so it does hurt him a bit.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Graham, when compared to long career players like Brady, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers and guys like Marino and Elway Is similar to Koufax. I am not saying he had a short career for football, but there was no decline period for him. He led the league in Passer rating his last season at age 34.
He was a tremendous, generational talent. He led the league in Passer Rating for half the years he played! that is unheard of. I have no doubt he could have played modern football. he probably would have had a much longer career too. Is he better than Brady, Not sure. I know I have recency bias, having watched Brady.
I think I do tend to lean in Bradys direction with the difficulty of keeping a dynasty together for 20 years. the salary cap and free agency makes this patriots run so unbelievable. there were only two constants throughout: BB and TB. that gives TB a lot of ammo against his naysayers.
the longer he is around, and the more I get to watch Tom Brady, the more I notice talent he has which others don't, physical attributes which aren't measurable. I have come to believe/understand that he is able to view the field better than most other QB's and that he probably has extraordinary peripheral vision. he also has an above average understanding of ball position relative to yard markers and the ability to know where his receivers are, or are at least supposed to be.
combined, these attributes allow him to have a ridiculous advantage. I have been noticing lately that he rarely throws to a receiver who has little chance of reaching the First Down marker. an example is when it's 3rd and 8 he won't throw to a guy two yards over the line of scrimmage who's covered by a defender like a blanket!!! that sort of thing makes me crazy and almost every QB will do it, not giving his Team a chance to advance. Brady rarely does.
back to Otto Graham......................watching that old film footage is tough to relate to today's game because it isn't in "real time" and everyone looks slow. also, even though the shape/size of the ball is supposedly unchanged from Graham's era, it looks different, and the pads they wore made throwing not as simple as today's better protecting and less bulky style. helmet design has really come a long way, Thank God!!
@keets said:
the longer he is around, and the more I get to watch Tom Brady, the more I notice talent he has which others don't, physical attributes which aren't measurable. I have come to believe/understand that he is able to view the field better than most other QB's and that he probably has extraordinary peripheral vision. he also has an above average understanding of ball position relative to yard markers and the ability to know where his receivers are, or are at least supposed to be.
combined, these attributes allow him to have a ridiculous advantage. I have been noticing lately that he rarely throws to a receiver who has little chance of reaching the First Down marker. an example is when it's 3rd and 8 he won't throw to a guy two yards over the line of scrimmage who's covered by a defender like a blanket!!! that sort of thing makes me crazy and almost every QB will do it, not giving his Team a chance to advance. Brady rarely does.
back to Otto Graham......................watching that old film footage is tough to relate to today's game because it isn't in "real time" and everyone looks slow. also, even though the shape/size of the ball is supposedly unchanged from Graham's era, it looks different, and the pads they wore made throwing not as simple as today's better protecting and less bulky style. helmet design has really come a long way, Thank God!!
this is a good take. living in NE, I have been lucky enough to watch every start of Bradys career. He has an surreal grasp of his playbook. He knows where every player belongs on every play. this is why he values accurate route runners. occasionally you will see him send a pass downfield and there is no teammate within 10 yards or more. then you will see him stare down the WR. that player no doubt has missed a route. Bradys game is all about precision. I think it had to be that way because in the beginning he did not have a strong arm.
I can remember watching when he took over for Bledsoe, thinking how different their throws looked. over the years, after perfecting his motion, Brady did develop an above average arm. In the beginning though, it was all about precision. for plays to be successful, routes needed to be run to perfection and accuracy was the name of the game.
I also think Brady has an off the charts football IQ. I had honestly never thought about his peripheral vision. that could explain his uncanny ability to move away from danger in the pocket.
Comments
Yes.
Someone correct me please if I'm wrong.
In his seventeen seasons as a starter in NE, so not including his rookie year, he failed to win the SB in eleven of those.
He made the playoffs sixteen times. Reached the SB nine times. And won it six times.
Edit to add.... 🐐
Graham might or might not have slipped, but he had a short career.
when you consider this --- The average NFL career lasts 3.3 years, according to the NFL Players' Association --- I don't really think that Graham's 10 year career was short by anyone's standard(except maybe guys like Tom Brady or George Blanda). if you watch the links I provided it should be abundantly clear that Graham played at an extraordinarily high level for his entire career and resembled a "scrambler" when it was necessary, even though he was a more than adequate passer. in reality, he was closer in style to John Elway than he was to Tom Brady.
also, since when is it a knock on a player who chooses to get out of the game at the arguable peak of his career?? after retiring in 1954, Otto Graham was "lured" back for one season and the Browns won another NFL Championship, so it's clear he still had plenty left in the tank. would you also conclude, based on his only playing nine seasons, that Jim Brown would have slipped had he continued with his career??
there's nothing wrong with getting out at the top, more players should follow that example(Head Coaches, too).
for your consideration --- if Otto Graham had stuck around and played through the 1957 season when Jim Brown appeared on the scene, this discussion would probably be different.
Completely agree with your entire post. Especially that he most likely would have been better with JB in the same backfield.
However we are comparing him to Brady, Brees etc and even Tarkenton (well, I am), so it does hurt him a bit.
Graham, when compared to long career players like Brady, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers and guys like Marino and Elway Is similar to Koufax. I am not saying he had a short career for football, but there was no decline period for him. He led the league in Passer rating his last season at age 34.
He was a tremendous, generational talent. He led the league in Passer Rating for half the years he played! that is unheard of. I have no doubt he could have played modern football. he probably would have had a much longer career too. Is he better than Brady, Not sure. I know I have recency bias, having watched Brady.
I think I do tend to lean in Bradys direction with the difficulty of keeping a dynasty together for 20 years. the salary cap and free agency makes this patriots run so unbelievable. there were only two constants throughout: BB and TB. that gives TB a lot of ammo against his naysayers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
the longer he is around, and the more I get to watch Tom Brady, the more I notice talent he has which others don't, physical attributes which aren't measurable. I have come to believe/understand that he is able to view the field better than most other QB's and that he probably has extraordinary peripheral vision. he also has an above average understanding of ball position relative to yard markers and the ability to know where his receivers are, or are at least supposed to be.
combined, these attributes allow him to have a ridiculous advantage. I have been noticing lately that he rarely throws to a receiver who has little chance of reaching the First Down marker. an example is when it's 3rd and 8 he won't throw to a guy two yards over the line of scrimmage who's covered by a defender like a blanket!!! that sort of thing makes me crazy and almost every QB will do it, not giving his Team a chance to advance. Brady rarely does.
back to Otto Graham......................watching that old film footage is tough to relate to today's game because it isn't in "real time" and everyone looks slow. also, even though the shape/size of the ball is supposedly unchanged from Graham's era, it looks different, and the pads they wore made throwing not as simple as today's better protecting and less bulky style. helmet design has really come a long way, Thank God!!
Absolutely no way. I doubt any GM in the league would take him over Peyton or Rodgers for the entirety of their careers.
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this is a good take. living in NE, I have been lucky enough to watch every start of Bradys career. He has an surreal grasp of his playbook. He knows where every player belongs on every play. this is why he values accurate route runners. occasionally you will see him send a pass downfield and there is no teammate within 10 yards or more. then you will see him stare down the WR. that player no doubt has missed a route. Bradys game is all about precision. I think it had to be that way because in the beginning he did not have a strong arm.
I can remember watching when he took over for Bledsoe, thinking how different their throws looked. over the years, after perfecting his motion, Brady did develop an above average arm. In the beginning though, it was all about precision. for plays to be successful, routes needed to be run to perfection and accuracy was the name of the game.
I also think Brady has an off the charts football IQ. I had honestly never thought about his peripheral vision. that could explain his uncanny ability to move away from danger in the pocket.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.