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Possible major Trade $ error. I need help figuring this one out.

TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 3, 2020 2:31PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Hello everyone, I just got this in todays mail and I can't figure out how this Trade $ has avoided a major collection for 143 years. It appears to have been struck multiple times. The reverse appears to have been struck at least twice and about 90% rotated between strikes. The obverse appears to have been struck by an obverse and reverse die. It's really hard to get good pics with my phone, but here are a few that you can look at. The 1st pic was the auction photo and you can see extra stars between Liberty's head and arm.

Here are some of my photos to try to show some of the other stuff going on.

This last picture seems to show the bottom of a number 5 between the chop mark and the star.

Trade $'s
«1

Comments

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Weird but cool

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool! The sellers pics sure hid those stars! Good eye! 👍👍

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • ChopmarkedTradesChopmarkedTrades Posts: 495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Really interesting, especially with the chops. Multi-struck and possibly brockage?

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dave, that's really something. Never seen anything close to it. Good eye.!

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz said:
    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

    All of the extra stars and letters appears to be raised.

    Trade $'s
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the captain has it right or close. The “mushy” undertype usually shows from false die strikes. In effect, that’s what could have been created by a striking plate for chops.

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    As multiple coins were chopmarked, where ever and when ever that occurred, some of the blows transferred parts of the designs of the coins onto and into the backing plate. Some of the subsequent coins were embossed into those earlier impressions when they were counter stamped, receiving weak, partial double strikes.

    Ok, I'm not saying you are not correct. But, wouldn't there be flattened areas caused be the coin smashing into a plate where the coins were when it was being chopmarked?

    Trade $'s
  • ChopmarkedTradesChopmarkedTrades Posts: 495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I haven't seen any sort of tranferred or rotated undertype on any other chopmarked coin, but haven't seen an error of this type either.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:
    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

    All of the extra stars and letters appears to be raised.

    If raised, then I think the Captain's explanation makes sense. Also, on the obverse, the fields look irregular as if they were pressed into a flat but non smooth surface, maybe during the chopping process. However, the way the stars seem to line up in the same arc gives me pause . I dunno.

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz said:

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:
    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

    All of the extra stars and letters appears to be raised.

    If raised, then I think the Captain's explanation makes sense. Also, on the obverse, the fields look irregular as if they were pressed into a flat but non smooth surface, maybe during the chopping process. However, the way the stars seem to line up in the same arc gives me pause . I dunno.

    Almost all of the chops are in the central area of the coin, therefore how can the design transfer be around the rim areas on both sides. Just trying to understand.

    Trade $'s
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i thought there may be a small chance it is a d/s but what numeral is this? doesn't look like any of these 1877.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TennesseeDave stated he thought that digit is the bottom part of a 5, which I believe is correct.
    The 5 not being part of 1887 lines up with @CaptHenway's theory that the raised letters and stars
    could come from a backing plate that were impressed when other coins were chopmarked.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:
    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

    All of the extra stars and letters appears to be raised.

    If raised, then I think the Captain's explanation makes sense. Also, on the obverse, the fields look irregular as if they were pressed into a flat but non smooth surface, maybe during the chopping process. However, the way the stars seem to line up in the same arc gives me pause . I dunno.

    Almost all of the chops are in the central area of the coin, therefore how can the design transfer be around the rim areas on both sides. Just trying to understand.

    Chopmarks are random in their placement. Some previous coins could have transferred impressions near the edge. Maybe more impressions near the center tends to cancel out design elements and fewer near the edge preserves more transferred detail.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:

    @TennesseeDave said:

    @kaz said:
    Dave, is that partial 5 raised or incuse?

    All of the extra stars and letters appears to be raised.

    If raised, then I think the Captain's explanation makes sense. Also, on the obverse, the fields look irregular as if they were pressed into a flat but non smooth surface, maybe during the chopping process. However, the way the stars seem to line up in the same arc gives me pause . I dunno.

    Almost all of the chops are in the central area of the coin, therefore how can the design transfer be around the rim areas on both sides. Just trying to understand.

    That makes 2 of us! Think about a relatively soft metal plate with a dollar sized indentation in it where coins were placed to be chopmarked. design elements could be impressed into the metal, then transferred to subsequent coins . I have no idea if that is what happened, but it's fun to speculate.

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @kaz said:

    That makes 2 of us! Think about a relatively soft metal plate with a dollar sized indentation in it where coins were placed to be chopmarked. design elements could be impressed into the metal, then transferred to subsequent coins . I have no idea if that is what happened, but it's fun to speculate.

    Ok, lets think about this. If the backing plate had transferred designs on it from previously chopmarked coins, they would be incuse in the backing plate. If another coin was placed on top of it and chopped, the area just opposite of the chopmark could receive a transfer of the design under the chopmark. Most of the design transfer on my coin is around the rim area, while the chops are in the middle of the coin. This idea does not make sense to me. I will eventually send the coin to Pcgs for confirmation.

    Trade $'s
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    I wrote an article in the latest Gobrecht Journal with Dan descibing the same phenomena. I made no conclusions about the causes and received a couple of responses from the seated community. The article described a 2 sided multiple strike. I have several single side imprint coins in my possession right now. These coins (chop marked), we double impressed during a chop strike on an anvil. The coin that I originally wrote about was more vexing. Hope this comment helps. Keoj

  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    I'll post some pics tomorrow of others tomorrow.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,620 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting conjecture. I don't see a hard anvil surface receiving an image and then transferring it to another coin. But that's just me. Reading about Gullberg and his work. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keoj said:
    I wrote an article in the latest Gobrecht Journal with Dan describing the same phenomena. I made no conclusions about the causes and received a couple of responses from the seated community. The article described a 2 sided multiple strike. I have several single side imprint coins in my possession right now. These coins (chop marked), we double impressed during a chop strike on an anvil. The coin that I originally wrote about was more vexing. Hope this comment helps. Keoj

    @keoj said:
    I'll post some pics tomorrow of others tomorrow.

    I look forward to this. Thanks keoj !

    Trade $'s
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting coin and even more interesting discussion....I will watch this thread for further commentary, though I think @CaptHenway likely has the answer. Cheers, RickO

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are lots of variables involved in random design transfers like this. Was the backing plate hard, like steel or iron, or relatively soft like brass? Was the coin bent during the counterstamping and then hammered flat against the backing plate, transmitting more random design elements into the backing plate and/or picking up random design elements in the process?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    A couple of images....all different coins:


  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭

    Th above two are pretty easy to say post mint transferal.

    The vexing on is below. If you PM and send me email, I can send you a copy of the article. There were two obverse secondary ( or primary) images on the obverse and two secondary (or primary) reverse images on the reverse. Both images are in exact rotational correctness.


    keoj

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's another example, linked below to a very large image for study. Notice faint stars and other obverse elements on the obverse, and reverse elements around TRADE and UNITED around the reverse.

    link to big image

    This backing plate theory has a zero percent chance of happening for this coin. In order for that to have happened, the coin would have had to been placed in just the right place over this supposed backing plate where the obverse had been imprinted, then flipped over and placed in exactly the right different spot where the reverse had been imprinted.

    Although I'm open to the possibility that some striking event connected with the chopping caused extra impressions, it wasn't so coincidental as theorized here in this thread - at least for this coin.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:

    This backing plate theory has a zero percent chance of happening for this coin.

    Zero chance happening, period. To this coin or any other. Who would use a soft metal surface to chop coins on?

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm curious if anyone knows of non-chopmarked trade dollars that have been double struck at the mint?

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020 11:08AM

    I have seen some patterns in the area just opposite of a chopmark before as I am sure many of you have, but never almost all the way around the rims on both sides when all of the chops are in the center of the coin. I can see some design transfer happening just on the opposite side of the coin from a chopmark. As for my coin lets look at the obverse at the extra star above the outstreched arm of Liberty in front of her head. For that extra star to be imparted from some kind of backing plate used for chopping coins, the two stars on either side would be completely obliterated by a chopmark at least in the area on the opposite side of the coin. Or at least that's how I see it.

    Trade $'s
  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020 11:11AM

    @kaz said:
    I'm curious if anyone knows of non-chopmarked trade dollars that have been double struck at the mint?

    That's an excellent question. I would also like to ask does anyone have a Trade $ with extra lettering that has been to Pcgs for there opinion?
    Where's Fred Weinberg?

    Trade $'s
  • TopdollarpaidTopdollarpaid Posts: 595 ✭✭✭

    Could it be 1877 struck over a 1875?

    Randy Conway

    Www.killermarbles.com

    Www.suncitycoin.com
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:
    Here's another example, linked below to a very large image for study. Notice faint stars and other obverse elements on the obverse, and reverse elements around TRADE and UNITED around the reverse.

    link to big image

    This backing plate theory has a zero percent chance of happening for this coin. In order for that to have happened, the coin would have had to been placed in just the right place over this supposed backing plate where the obverse had been imprinted, then flipped over and placed in exactly the right different spot where the reverse had been imprinted.

    Although I'm open to the possibility that some striking event connected with the chopping caused extra impressions, it wasn't so coincidental as theorized here in this thread - at least for this coin.

    For this particular coin, consider the possibility that somebody who wanted to make a fake multi-struck coin started out with an already chopmarked coin, perhaps because it was cheaper than an undamaged one, and used that to squeeze a pair of false dies. He then carefully turned the coin within the false dies and squeezed again.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 'overstrike' or 'additional' strike, no matter
    why it was made, was made with false/fake dies.

    It is not a genuine Double Struck Trade Dollar.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020 11:20AM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The 'overstrike' or 'additional' strike, no matter
    why it was made, was made with false/fake dies.

    It is not a genuine Double Struck Trade Dollar.

    I absolutely know much to listen to people who speak in absolutes. Even if you're right most of the rest of us have the curiosity and intellect to want to figure out how A got to B.

    It is curious these results are consistently with Chop Marked coins

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not saying it wasn't caused by the
    theory put out by Capt. Henway.

    I'm saying the doubling you see is not
    from it being double struck at the Mint,
    when it was originally struck.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is curious these results are consistently with Chop Marked coins

    And herein lies the key. If these types of "doubling" were occurring on non-chopped coins, it's a different story...

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020 2:32PM

    @mbogoman said:
    It is curious these results are consistently with Chop Marked coins

    And herein lies the key. If these types of "doubling" were occurring on non-chopped coins, it's a different story...

    Statistically, there is not a plurality of coins to make a judgment one way or the other. The sample size is too small to make a significant finding.

    But. that doesnt mean you're wrong. I'd love to know more about Fred's conclusion, if it's based on study/knowledge of the mint or if it's based on something else.

    I will say, I am most swayed by @CaptHenway

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have seen some ghosting on other counterstamped coins.

    Detail transfer to a harder "anvil" surface is possible.

    Sometimes counterfeiters have forced genuine coins against soft steel to make dies.

    It sounds counterintuitive but it can happen.

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020 5:20PM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    The 'overstrike' or 'additional' strike, no matter
    why it was made, was made with false/fake dies.

    It is not a genuine Double Struck Trade Dollar.

    OK, I know you are the expert. How can the design elements on my coin such as the letters between the rim and the head of Liberty be put there without damaging those areas. Would this have been done back in the 19th century, and would they have been made for profit to sell as a mint error?

    Trade $'s
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m getting deja Vu from the morgan dollar “letters on rim” thread.
    All was chaos until a member recreated the effect in his garage, then all was silence. Maybe we could do that again with Morgan’s here?

    If I was hammering chops into coins on a regular basis (takes some force) and I was sick of them flying all over my office from the impacts, I might create a circular depression in a metal striking plate the size of the coin so that it would hang around after getting hit.

    Over time, the area with my homemade “collar”’ might take on some design elements from the force of the strikes, and be transferred to future coins. The rotational arrangement of those elements would always be correct, since the coin is held in the same spot each time.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020 10:17AM

    @scubafuel said:
    I’m getting deja Vu from the morgan dollar “letters on rim” thread.
    All was chaos until a member recreated the effect in his garage, then all was silence. Maybe we could do that again with Morgan’s here?

    If I was hammering chops into coins on a regular basis (takes some force) and I was sick of them flying all over my office from the impacts, I might create a circular depression in a metal striking plate the size of the coin so that it would hang around after getting hit.

    Over time, the area with my homemade “collar”’ might take on some design elements from the force of the strikes, and be transferred to future coins. The rotational arrangement of those elements would always be correct, since the coin is held in the same spot each time.

    This is the only explanation I've been able to come up with to explain the phenomenon here. Still doesn't explain the 75-S with the obverse elements on the obverse only, and the reverse elements on the reverse only. Maybe that coin is a one-off "pressed false dies" job, but now we're reeeaallly stretching to explain things. "Those were made that way...this one was made this way....etc".

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That one is interesting, but seems explainable. It has multiple chops on both sides. Some guys chop obverse, some guys chop reverse. If they both use backing plates, you’d get that effect.

    If you found that effect (ghosting on both sides) on a coin with a chop on only one side, it’d be tougher.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Isn't there a Scott Restrike Confederate half dollar that shows some similar doubling? Can't find pictures of it.

    Apparently the restrikes were made with the planed-off reverse 1861 half dollars face down on a backing plate, and during the strikings the Liberty Seated design became impressed into the backing plate, and at least one coin was not aligned with the obverse of the coin aligned with the impression in the backing plate.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    That one is interesting, but seems explainable. It has multiple chops on both sides. Some guys chop obverse, some guys chop reverse. If they both use backing plates, you’d get that effect.

    If you found that effect (ghosting on both sides) on a coin with a chop on only one side, it’d be tougher.

    Yeah, I mean maybe. But you look at the thousands and thousands of chopmarked coins out there and you almost never see this. Why only Trade Dollars, and why only a tiny percentage?

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've asked how can design elements be transferred between two raised designs such as two raised stars or the head of Liberty and the rim without severely damaging those features and no one has the answer. Therefore I believe there's a chance the coin has been struck more than once. Either way it's apparently pretty rare and definitely interesting to me.

    Trade $'s
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020 8:18AM

    I could see a guy chopping coins in a stack (like a roll) and then flicking the top coin off with their thumb and going down the line. Thank might explain some of it but I tried it with a few silver half dollars and a Phillips head screw driver and all I got was one mangled 64 Kennedy. no major damage to the under coins and I hit the top as hard as I could.

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @FredWeinberg said:
    I'm not saying it wasn't caused by the
    theory put out by Capt. Henway.

    I'm saying the doubling you see is not
    from it being double struck at the Mint,
    when it was originally struck.

    Are you aware of any double/multi strike trade dollars? If so, what is the difference between those that you feel are genuine and the ones posted here?

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not aware of any Double Struck Trade Dollars.

    The one posted in this thread is not one.

    The difference is that the 'extra' lettering and design
    elements are not consistent with any double genuine
    double struck coin, cent thru Silver Dollar.

    This TD has all of the same elements as cents thru
    dollars that I've seen struck with False or Fake Dies.
    (incomplete striking, mushy lettering, etc. etc. etc.)

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    @FredWeinberg said:
    I'm not aware of any Double Struck Trade Dollars.

    The one posted in this thread is not one.

    The difference is that the 'extra' lettering and design
    elements are not consistent with any double genuine
    double struck coin, cent thru Silver Dollar.

    This TD has all of the same elements as cents thru
    dollars that I've seen struck with False or Fake Dies.
    (incomplete striking, mushy lettering, etc. etc. etc.)

    Thank you

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

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