Is buying a counterfeit (not on purpose) considered tuition?
Zoins
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When coin collectors talk about "paying tuition", is falling for a counterfeit included?
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It could be.... That being said, sometimes even somewhat seasoned collectors are deceived. Certainly for new collectors who often have the tendency to 'leap before they look (or learn)', it would be part of tuition. Cheers, RickO
That's what I'm wondering.
Tuition is often used for new collectors, but even the most advanced collectors and top TPG graders can fall for counterfeits.
@Zoins... Very true, we have seen it happen. I guess that would be college tuition
.... Humor aside, some of the counterfeiters are true artists, and their products could easily get by many experienced collectors - and have. Then you have the saga of the 'Omega' gold coins.... Cheers, RickO
Yes.
technically, i would say yet BUT i think it would mean that the person learns from that mistake, not to repeat it.
I'm not sure learning is necessary. For example, many people never graduate from college, but still pay tuition....
I don't think it should be.
I think it turns many people away from the hobby rather than being tuition.
Mr_Spud
No, it’s not tuition as it’s falling victim to a crime.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Yes. If a buyer purchases a counterfeit (unless it was extremely well made), that should be considered a lesson. Don't buy raw coins if you don't have expertise in identifying real ones. This means knowing design details.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I actually think the word "tuition" is a turnoff to most people, even for non-counterfeits. I think "ripped off" is often more appropriate than "tuition"
No. I consider that when someone has been deceived by a dealer who sells a collector a fake coin to being a crime victim rather that paying tuition.
If that same dealer had a coin stolen from his display case because he wasn't paying attention, would that dealer be considered to be "paying tuition"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I hardly consider myself a new collector and was deceived by an impostor a couple of years ago. Sent to PCGS and was very surprised when the results popped up. Caveat: It was an added mintmark, actually two mintmarks (CC's). So, technically it was real just altered. Fooled the punch out of me for sure.
So, if they are done right, either altered or counterfeited, yes we can be fooled even as a seasoned collector.
Tuition? Yes, taught me a lesson if that's what you meant.
bob
I think more of buying over graded or problem coins as paying tuition. Probably because counterfeits weren't as much of a problem when I was "schooled".
I'm going to agree with this, but it's a fine line between falling victim to a crime and falling victim to one's own overconfidence. I know we throw around that term whenever someone learns an expensive lesson, but I think that it best describes stuff like overpaying for something or learning that you shouldn't have cleaned your coins.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Not trying to change the subject but, If it is a crime for a dealer to sell a counterfeit coin to a collector.
Is it a crime for a dealer to sell a cleaned coin to a collector? Assuming he does not disclose it has been cleaned.
We often call this paying tuition.
Mercury
One can allege it is, as with any case where someone overpaid for something (cleaned, overgraded, deluxe packaging, gold plated TV crap, priced looking to hook the big one), but it's a different animal from being sold a fake.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Are you buying raw UNC Trade Dollars on eBay from a seller in Guangzhou?
Latin American Collection
"Tuition" is a cover all for being "ripped off" "theft" "skulduggery" "buying the sizzle, not the steak" It's kinda like being told we're "raising the bar" i.e. YOUR OUT !
It's a lousy stinking rotten way of being told yer fuked or being fuked over
Buying an "unsearched roll" or two on ebay IMO is tuition. (Paid that bill a couple times). Buying the holder not the coin is tuition. Buying a coin that looks good in hand but gets a genuine because of something you missed is tuition. Buying a coin that had photos of coin at an angle to de-emphasize (but not hide) a defect that was obvious when you had the coin in hand, that's tuition.
Buying a counterfeit for more than about $20 - that's a bit different because there was a crime committed there. That's a rip-off.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
To what degree ? PhD or Associates ?
If a CC specialist can be fooled by a bad CC, what chance does a newer collector have?
I would consider paying 64+ money for a 63 coin (like I did the first time I bought a "nice" coin from a trusted dealer) as the price of tuition. I think this is a more typical type numismatic education.
I would not consider buying a counterfeit coin, watch or anything else to be tuition, that's just flat out gettin' screwed.
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
No! I bought an ancient coin early on from a reputable ancient's dealer. Years later, I decided to slab it because I thought I would sell it. It came back questionable authenticity. I thought I should eat it as "tuition" but another reputable dealer friend who knew my ancient coin dealer told me I should tell my ancient's dealer friend about the coin. He said, he would want to know. So, I did, and after reviewing the coin with a few other ancient coin dealers, he decided that it might' be fake. Even though he no longer had a record of the sale, he insisted on paying me back for the coin. I was hesitant, but he insisted.
Not only did that dealer gain my respect, he gained a lifelong friend and customer.
Tom
Great story, but how does the dealer refunding your money tie to tuition?
Is it if a dealer will refund you it’s not tuition but if a dealer won’t make you whole, it is tuition?
Essentially, yes, IMO, but if a dealer won't refund you on a counterfeit, he's breaking the law and you have legal recourse..
Anyone with experience gained it by making mistakes buying coins that were less than wholesome thinking they were wholesome, or more wholesome than they were. After all, coins come in a lot of different forms and in a lot of different grades and levels of originality. I consider that "paying my dues" or tuition, and we can argue about whether it is right or wrong for a dealer to sell a coin without full disclosure, but some don't and some do, and it sometimes depends upon the relationship between the parties as well as the experience of the parties.
For example, as a new collector, I had a long-time dealer who knew i was inexperienced steer me to a raw un-circulated Standing Liberty Quarter that was obviously artificially toned. I bit, and paid the price. That was wrong and the dealer shouldn't have done that, I have never dealt with him again, and I tell my trusted friends about it, that I would never deal with him, and I suggest that they be very careful in dealings with him. If it happened today, I would know better, I would not buy it, and if I did buy it, I would blame myself. Both are "tuition."
Counterfeits are different. As mentioned, it is illegal to sell a counterfeit, so that transaction gets reversed immediately and you get a refund, the seller has to pay his dues, and you get a tuition free lesson. Now, if you don't recover, I suppose it is a tuition of sorts, but I would just call it criminal. I should add that in the handful of times that I purchased a counterfeit coin, the seller jumped all over himself seeking to buy the coin back.
Tom
Loss - based on the acctg revenue recognition principle. It wb a loss at the point in time it occurred. If funds from seller recovered then that money hits that period. Idk if I would call it tuition but it’s certainly unfortunate mistake / loss to buyer.
I had a guy offer me a complete set of raw $2.50 Indians (mid 1990’s) in a capital holder - walk-up seller at show. Told him imo most fake. I had studied German book on world & US gold counterfeits long before. He tried argue otherwise of course I passed and so did other dealers he offered it to. At next show he came up to table apologized “you guys were right.”
Beware of raw big ticket coins or deals that look too good.
It can be... I think it depends on the circumstances. In most instances, a reputable dealer will refund your money or possibly provide a credit towards another purchase. Some coins are heavily counterfeited and collectors really need to educate themselves so they appreciate and understand genuine characteristics to reduce the chances of mistakes. A numismatic education has an ongoing tuition that manifests itself in different formats... Buying a counterfeit coin can be one... It happens
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yeah, honestly I've never heard of the concept of "paying tuition" but I like it! Either way you look at it, we all pay our dues in learning about collecting coins, medals or whatever. I think I've paid most of my dues by inadvertently buying cleaned coins as that was quite the learning curve for me!
Yes ... it's a learning fee.
@Zoins - I wouldn't call it "tuition", but I would say that buyers have a responsibility to educate themselves about counterfeits - which is perhaps the underlying question you're getting at.
I don't blame the victims, I sympathize, but better for them not to become victims in the first place. A large portion of the counterfeits that people get fooled by are not very good at all, and could be easily avoided with the proper education.
That being said, there is also a sad irony that some people who love to collect coins actually do not have an eye for them at all, and perhaps no amount of education will be able to fix that. I see the same thing with die varieties - some people just cannot identify them - and that can be as much or more of a problem than counterfeits. In the modern series that I most often collect, I've never seen a counterfeit coin in a TPG holder....but I've seen lots of misattributed varieties.
We have many sayings for beginning coin collectors - "buy the coin, not the holder", etc. The best advice some people can get is "buy what you know", or more to the point, "buy what you can see"...
'Buy what you understand'
A dealer quietly told me this decades ago, and he was referring to authenticity, grade, quality for the grade, rarity, opportunity to find another if you don't like this one, etc.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I used call that tuition but prefer classifying as buying mistake / loss.
All I can say is stick with PCGS graded coins, your area of expertise, examine carefully / research item, and pass on acquisitions you feel uncertain of or feel uneasy from budget / risk Mgt considerations.