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CW: "Monday Morning Brief for Sept. 28, 2020: This will kill the program"

GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 16,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 28, 2020 7:38AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Don't see any way the Mint can justify this absurd price jump.


Monday Morning Brief for Sept. 28, 2020: This will kill the program

By William T. Gibbs , Coin World

Published: Sep 28, 2020, 7 AM



There is a guaranteed way to kill a U.S. Mint program: raise prices by 400 percent.

Mint officials are preparing to do just that by increasing the price of the Mint’s 3-inch bronze medals from $39.95 to $160 each. Yes, you read that correctly — $160 for a medal with zero precious metals content and no published mintage limits.

Astonishingly, the $160 price is just $18.25 less than what the U.S. Mint currently charges for the America the Beautiful 3-inch 5-ounce .999 fine silver quarter dollars. They currently sell for $178.25. That price proximity is astonishing, making the Mint’s decision even more bewildering.

Mint officials tells us that they lose money in producing bronze medals. But is that justification to increase the price of the 3-inch medals so high? And how long has the Mint been losing money on the program?


Continued in link............

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/monday-morning-brief-for-sept-28-2020-this-will-kill-the-program

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2020 7:36AM

    Wow.... that is a huge price increase....and I have considered that medal.... Not now. Cheers, RickO

  • ernie11ernie11 Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Far better to ditch this program. Ridiculous price.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I doubt if the mint has made money on any medal issue since the John Wayne issue. They are sure money losers and this looks to me to be the mint's way of killing the medal program without actually saying what they are doing.

    Large medals are quite expensive to produce. Considerable labor (which equals expense) is involved. It is not like turning out Lincoln cents by the billions.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the medals come fairly dinged up. at least in the minting part, they don't put the labor in.

    perhaps the consumers of the gold medals can pay for those.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In FY2019 on the numismatic side of business…

    The Mint Lost $17.8M on the Annual Core Sets
    The Mint Lost $7.2M on the Quarter Products
    The Mint Lost $12.9M on the Miscellaneous Products
    The Mint Lost $5.8M on the American Innovation Products

    That’s in Total the Mint Lost $43.7M on four line item products.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2020 6:11PM

    I'm not sure if I'm too sensitive here, but I'm not feeling the torpedo pun:

    Will the huge price increase torpedo collector interest in the Mint’s bronze medals program?

    The torpedo attack on the Indianapolis resulted in a loss of 879 lives and is the greatest loss of life from a single ship in US naval history.

    From Wikipedia:

    At 0015 on 30 July, the ship was torpedoed by the Imperial Japanese Navy submarine I-58, and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,195 crewmen aboard, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remaining 890 faced exposure, dehydration, saltwater poisoning, and shark attacks while stranded in the open ocean with few lifeboats and almost no food or water. The Navy only learned of the sinking four days later, when survivors were spotted by the crew of a PV-1 Ventura on routine patrol. Only 316 survived. The sinking of Indianapolis resulted in the greatest single loss of life at sea from a single ship in the history of the US Navy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Indianapolis_(CA-35)

  • foraiurforaiur Posts: 134 ✭✭✭

    This is the same idiocy as the Post Office problems. Acting like you can micro-mandate all these things for political reasons and except a place to run like a for profit business. Doesn't always work.

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    the medals come fairly dinged up. at least in the minting part, they don't put the labor in.

    perhaps the consumers of the gold medals can pay for those.

    Do you have any examples? Most 3” bronze medals produced by the US Mint in the last 20 years that I have seen have been pristine.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A bummer if you like to collect them.i would t consider it either at that price either

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    I'm not sure if I'm too sensitive here, but I'm not feeling the torpedo pun:

    Will the huge price increase torpedo collector interest in the Mint’s bronze medals program?

    The torpedo attack on the Indianapolis resulted in a loss of 879 lives and is the greatest loss of life from a single ship in US naval history.

    From Wikipedia:

    At 0015 on 30 July, the ship was torpedoed by the Imperial Japanese Navy submarine I-58, and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,195 crewmen aboard, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remaining 890 faced exposure, dehydration, saltwater poisoning, and shark attacks while stranded in the open ocean with few lifeboats and almost no food or water. The Navy only learned of the sinking four days later, when survivors were spotted by the crew of a PV-1 Ventura on routine patrol. Only 316 survived. The sinking of Indianapolis resulted in the greatest single loss of life at sea from a single ship in the history of the US Navy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Indianapolis_(CA-35)

    Agreed, poor choice of words IMO.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    William T. Gibbs, Coin World wrote:

    Mint officials tells us that they lose money in producing bronze medals. But is that justification to increase the price of the 3-inch medals so high? And how long has the Mint been losing money on the program?

    If the Mint can't do it cheaper, they should outsource to a private mint that can do it cheaper, just like how NASA uses Space-X.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I first saw it, I thought the new price was a typo. :D

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So the Mint had an epiphany moment. Its a nice looking medal, and historically significant.

    If the program is not low budget than the pricing should reflect the expenses. Maybe the thinking is demand may trail off a bit but with a shorter production run on a popular medal the values on the secondary market will hold up,

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    I personally feel that the Mint is trying to correct past mistakes. It is expensive to produce so they are raising the price like any private firm would do. What is the point to contract it out and be charged a lot by the private company only to sell the medal for less. Good work = higher price, and they are beautiful. I do agree a limited amount should be produced to cap the mintage, not doing that shows no understanding of numismatics and collectors needs.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Medals are a small, specialized market. Many coin collectors would rather fill their collection with slabbed and stickered 1881-S Morgan Dollars.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020 9:31AM

    @GoldenEgg said:

    @MsMorrisine said:
    the medals come fairly dinged up. at least in the minting part, they don't put the labor in.

    perhaps the consumers of the gold medals can pay for those.

    Do you have any examples? Most 3” bronze medals produced by the US Mint in the last 20 years that I have seen have been pristine.

    first, I should have excluded the special mint sets and silver medals. those are handled better.

    to show examples, I would have to order a bunch of modern mint bronze medals, photo, then return them. with their new policy on returns, I can't do that.

    For the few modern mint bronze medals I have bought, and it has been 3 or so, I had to order several and return all but one to get something in the 66 area.

    here are some ... (and I am complaining about the lack of 70's. it shows how those that are submitted are distributed)

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020 9:46AM

    If they could go back to the 19th century mahogany finish, I could see a price like this IF the design was really outstanding. As it is, they are selling “yellow bronze” medals with the sandblasted finish. As the late Rodney Dangerfield would put it, “Those medals don’t get no respect.”

    These medals can’t support the current $39.95 price in the secondary market. Dealers get runs of the presidential, “peace medal” pieces that were issued in the 1960s, ‘70s and ‘80s and can’t get $30 for them.

    Yep, this price increase will kill the market for these medals for purchase from the mint. It’s a shame, but I guess they figure it costs them that much to make them. The mint has been issuing medals in some form since the 1790s.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020 9:51AM

    here is a spate of really bad ones

    and a special set

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the mint once (or do they still?) called their product keepsakes. I'd sure like to see medal keepsakes have the same 69/70 distribution as other mint products to keep them out of the copper melt value area.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,312 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldbully said:

    And how long has the Mint been losing money on the program?

    Ever since they had to lay off more of the cost of penny manufacturing into other categories.

    Tempus fugit.
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cagcrisp said:
    In FY2019 on the numismatic side of business…

    The Mint Lost $17.8M on the Annual Core Sets
    The Mint Lost $7.2M on the Quarter Products
    The Mint Lost $12.9M on the Miscellaneous Products
    The Mint Lost $5.8M on the American Innovation Products

    That’s in Total the Mint Lost $43.7M on four line item products.

    https://govtrackinsider.com/it-costs-2-to-make-a-penny-and-7-to-make-a-nickel-but-cents-act-could-bring-those-costs-down-aa6aabfc9a8b

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/legislation-would-allow-u.s.-mint-to-change-coinage-alloys

    the cent is not up for composition change. the mint has already said they can't change the composition of the cent to save money.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Inflation is real whether the government wants to hide it or not. At this point in time they should probably drop the 1c and 5c and add a $2, $5, $10, and $20 coin while dropping the $1-$20 notes. At least if they want to “make money” since it costs more to print currency over the long run.

    Of course I might as well ask for $200 gold tomorrow as well.

  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SaorAlba said:

    @cagcrisp said:
    In FY2019 on the numismatic side of business…

    The Mint Lost $17.8M on the Annual Core Sets
    The Mint Lost $7.2M on the Quarter Products
    The Mint Lost $12.9M on the Miscellaneous Products
    The Mint Lost $5.8M on the American Innovation Products

    That’s in Total the Mint Lost $43.7M on four line item products.

    https://govtrackinsider.com/it-costs-2-to-make-a-penny-and-7-to-make-a-nickel-but-cents-act-could-bring-those-costs-down-aa6aabfc9a8b

    My numbers were on the numismatic side of the Mint's business. The link is for the circulating side of the Mint's business. The Mint has three sides of business: circulating, numismatic and bullion...

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    here is a spate of really bad ones

    and a special set

    I was hoping for photos.

    None of the medals that you have listed are relevant. Only one actually appears to be a 3” bronze medal (the subject of this discussion), and it has a pop of 1, which appears to be graded MS69. Regardless I would say that medals that end up in MS64 or 65 holders, are acceptable from a manufacturing quality standpoint, assuming that the grades posted actually reflect the quality of the medals graded.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, it really ought to get the Mint some new orders before Jan 1st, 2021 while they are really still relatively cheap. These will go down in value due to mintages, but then next year everything will go up in price.

    This is one way to help the Fed get their 2% inflation that seems to be so hard for them to find to find,... not.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Proof that the government can lose more money than they make.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Proof that the government can lose more money than they make.

    All we need to do for that is look at the national debt and deficit.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It just doesn't make any sense, no matter how you line it up. I'd rather scoop up a vintage medal any day. Peace Roy

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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Medals are simply a lost art form. It is not about money as much as it is about appearance. I suppose the same thing can be written about coinage in general. There is a cartoonish look that just lacks depth and workmanship. Maybe it is just more of a reflection as to the furtherance of mass production.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Medals are simply a lost art form. It is not about money as much as it is about appearance. I suppose the same thing can be written about coinage in general. There is a cartoonish look that just lacks depth and workmanship. Maybe it is just more of a reflection as to the furtherance of mass production.

    Not lost, but perhaps not appreciated by some. For example, Paris Mint makes beautiful reproductions of the Libertas Americana medal.

  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020 10:32PM

    I’m a big defender of modern coin design but this medal just looks terrible. So flat.

    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • TwobitcollectorTwobitcollector Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've only bought a few of the medals but only the 1-1/2 inch size

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