My problematic 1920s Mercury D./ I Made my decision...

joeykoins

Hi guy's, for the ones that are aware of my cherry pick, back a few months ago. Yes, the 1920s Merc. I found in the junk silver tray, for $5. For the members that don't know what I'm talking about. I found this key coin in the raw, and decided to send it in to our host. It looked terrific in my eyes, even had a shot for the FSB designation! When it finally arrived by UPS, I was shocked. It came back "Cleaned." I was very disappointed to say the least. I thought I was going to receive a straight grade for sure? I was anticipating to have a $1000 coin for my collection but instead I got back a dud. Hardly even worth the submission fee. Since then, I continue to get compliments on the coin, despite it being certified Cleaned. Also, I keep getting advise either to sell, trade, crack out and send it in across the street to NGC or even to crack out and try to let the coin tone up and then send it in across the street. Many good suggestions. Well, after all this time, I decided to take your advise in one of them. Most probably, I'll crack out and try to let it tone up naturally, then try to let NGC decide. So, before I pull the trigger on my final choice. I wanted to get your input on my controversial coin. Lol. Which one would you choose? Thanks guy's.

IkesT

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Selling is probably preferable, actually, unless you really want to keep it. At least you'd get some of your money back to spend on other things. You might even come out ahead - AU and UNC Details (Cleaned) 1920-S dimes have actually sold for decent money over at Great Collections, so you might even be selling the coin a bit short at $50. Hard to say, because there are different degrees of cleaning, and consequently different eye appeal after the fact, but something to think about:

https://www.greatcollections.com/search.php?fromyear=&toyear=2020&grade_range_1=1&grade_range_2=70&ungraded=0&ungraded=1&fromprice=&toprice=&mode=product&sort=02&series=0&q=1920+s+dime+details&listing_type=4&frombid=0&tobid=500

Don't crack it out or spend more money on further submissions - it's likely to keep coming back as Cleaned. Even as a cleaned coin, if you keep it in the PCGS holder, it will be more valuable and saleable than if it is not.

joeykoins

@IkesT said:

you might even be selling the coin a bit short at $50.

Wow! Yeah, you may be right? Same coin in the same PCGS holder, mine's even in a newer holder, along with the new PCGS tech additions. Yes, seeing your post, might have changed my mine entirely? Lol. Thanks.

abcde12345

It's too bad you can't find it within you to simply enjoy it for what it is. A neat find out of a silver junk bin that now appears to have a gentle cleaning.
Why trade it? Why sell it? Enjoy your Mercury dime.
(Plus, think how sad you will be to find out it was gently worked on and ends up in a straight grade holder NGC holder! Wouldn't that bum you out?)

291fifth

It is a problem coin that will do nothing but cost you more money if you continue to wish there was some way to make it a valuable coin. It is a good album coin for a budget-minded collector. Sell it and move on.

The US coin market is very mature and this means that there will be very, very few "bargains" to be found. If you want to find "bargains" you will have venture into the dark side of collecting, learn more about what you seek than the dealers or other collectors who have such material for sale and be prepared to wait for opportunities to arise. There is no easy money to be made in numismatics. Knowledge is power.

Jimnight

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Just leave it as is.

ricko

I would keep it as is.....It is a nice dime. If eventually you find one better, that one will sell to someone who plays the crack-out/resubmit game....And then later, when you see it straight graded, you can grumble and we will commiserate. Cheers, RickO

mothra454

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

I would sell it just to prove @291fifth wrong that there's no easy money! But seriously, it looks nicer than the one on GC and could have made FB if not for the cleaning. Should fetch a good price but I'd wait until you have several to sell if you're going to do it through an auction house. I doubt cracking and toning would do any good, since it looks like it has a lot of original toning so it was probably cleaned long ago.

silverpop

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

leave it as it is

keets

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

instead of trying to convince us, yourself, PCGS and NGC why the coin should straight grade, maybe a better option is to learn from the coin. let PCGS teach you how to identify this kind of problem to avoid it in the future and engage in false hope.

on the other hand, since an average single coin submission runs around $50, you have 19 more "tries" to force the issue with one of the TPG's. to my way of thinking, the coin looks cleaned, especially in the in-holder images. you have it, what do you think?? on the re-toning issues and the re-submission issues, well, you only have your conscience to wrestle with.

MFeld

It's not a controversial coin (except maybe in your mind, because you're unhappy with the grading results). It looks obviously cleaned and nothing will change that.

ChrisH821

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

If you like the coin, keep it. If you don't have any attachment to it, sell it as is.

291fifth

@mothra454 said:
I would sell it just to prove @291fifth wrong that there's no easy money! But seriously, it looks nicer than the one on GC and could have made FB if not for the cleaning. Should fetch a good price but I'd wait until you have several to sell if you're going to do it through an auction house. I doubt cracking and toning would do any good, since it looks like it has a lot of original toning so it was probably cleaned long ago.

It may have been picked up initially for melt but it has incurred significant additional expense as a result of the unsuccessful attempt to get it into a straight graded slab. The profit potential is probably gone. It is a problem coin and if described accurately as a problem coin, will not bring big money unless there is someone with more money than sense out there. (But now that I think of it, there seem to be quite a few such collectors out there at the present.)

joeykoins

@291fifth said:

@mothra454 said:
I would sell it just to prove @291fifth wrong that there's no easy money! But seriously, it looks nicer than the one on GC and could have made FB if not for the cleaning. Should fetch a good price but I'd wait until you have several to sell if you're going to do it through an auction house. I doubt cracking and toning would do any good, since it looks like it has a lot of original toning so it was probably cleaned long ago.

It may have been picked up initially for melt but it has incurred significant additional expense as a result of the unsuccessful attempt to get it into a straight graded slab. The profit potential is probably gone. It is a problem coin and if described accurately as a problem coin, will not bring big money unless there is someone with more money than sense out there. (But now that I think of it, there seem to be quite a few such collectors out there at the present.)

Yeah, IkesT, posted some examples that some are still interested in this type of coin/s. Particularly, the same year/mint mark/holder/problem that my coin displays. Somebody, at Great Collection, paid $130, for almost the exact problem coin mine possesses. Lol

291fifth

@joeykoins said:

@291fifth said:

@mothra454 said:
I would sell it just to prove @291fifth wrong that there's no easy money! But seriously, it looks nicer than the one on GC and could have made FB if not for the cleaning. Should fetch a good price but I'd wait until you have several to sell if you're going to do it through an auction house. I doubt cracking and toning would do any good, since it looks like it has a lot of original toning so it was probably cleaned long ago.

It may have been picked up initially for melt but it has incurred significant additional expense as a result of the unsuccessful attempt to get it into a straight graded slab. The profit potential is probably gone. It is a problem coin and if described accurately as a problem coin, will not bring big money unless there is someone with more money than sense out there. (But now that I think of it, there seem to be quite a few such collectors out there at the present.)

Yeah, IkesT, posted some examples that some are still interested in this type of coin/s. Particularly, the same year/mint mark/holder/problem that my coin displays. Somebody, at Great Collection, paid $130, for almost the exact problem coin mine possesses. Lol

SELL!!!!!!!!!!!!

mothra454

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

@291fifth said:

@joeykoins said:

@291fifth said:

@mothra454 said:
I would sell it just to prove @291fifth wrong that there's no easy money! But seriously, it looks nicer than the one on GC and could have made FB if not for the cleaning. Should fetch a good price but I'd wait until you have several to sell if you're going to do it through an auction house. I doubt cracking and toning would do any good, since it looks like it has a lot of original toning so it was probably cleaned long ago.

It may have been picked up initially for melt but it has incurred significant additional expense as a result of the unsuccessful attempt to get it into a straight graded slab. The profit potential is probably gone. It is a problem coin and if described accurately as a problem coin, will not bring big money unless there is someone with more money than sense out there. (But now that I think of it, there seem to be quite a few such collectors out there at the present.)

Yeah, IkesT, posted some examples that some are still interested in this type of coin/s. Particularly, the same year/mint mark/holder/problem that my coin displays. Somebody, at Great Collection, paid $130, for almost the exact problem coin mine possesses. Lol

SELL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed!!!!!!

@joeykoins It may not be a $1000 coin like you hoped for but it's still a great find and sometimes it's worth a shot to send it in and hope. That's really the only disappointment. If you had looked at it and figured it was UNC cleaned when you first found it, and thought it could fetch about $150 I bet you would have been thrilled to get it for $5!

vplite99

I agree the only logical thing is to keep it as it. Still a beautiful coin.

Baley

Definitely keep on submitting the coin to pcgs and starting new threads about it.. 😉

coinbuf

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Cracking the coin and AT'ing the coin to attempt to hide the cleaning and dupe another collector by dumping your $5 find on him/her all while making a large profit is highly unethical in my book. However its not surprising that there are some who are fine with that type of fraudulent activity. Leave it in the holder and sell or hold, the chances are high that the buyer will crack it out and either sell it as problem free or AT it and then sell for major bucks as rainbow toned. But at least your conscience can be clear that that you didn't dupe and defraud anyone.

mothra454

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

The Ballad of JoeyKoins Problematic Mercury D.:

I'm hot, and when I'm not, I'm clean and nice
See my cleaning, or step aside and pay the price
What I want I take, the bank I will break
Cuz I'm toned and hued
With a flick of my dime I can change your mind
There's nothing you can do

Cuz I'm a problem coin...

Downtown1974

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Joey, with the bad luck streak you’re on, you could build a box of twenty “swing and a miss” box.
All kidding aside, you’re probably still ahead of the game with that toned ASE you bought a while back. Some of those are selling for silly money.

joeykoins

@coinbuf said:
Cracking the coin and AT'ing the coin to attempt to hide the cleaning and dupe another collector by dumping your $5 find on him/her all while making a large profit is highly unethical in my book. However its not surprising that there are some who are fine with that type of fraudulent activity. Leave it in the holder and sell or hold, the chances are high that the buyer will crack it out and either sell it as problem free or AT it and then sell for major bucks as rainbow toned. But at least your conscience can be clear that that you didn't dupe and defraud anyone.

Lol. Since when is allowing a coin to tone, "naturally " called AT? I said naturally toned if you check my OP.

Catbert

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

Any coin for which I’m dissatisfied is sold. Concentrate your resources into coins that bring you joy, regardless of market value. Good luck on whatever you decide.

Walkerfan

Trade for a decent valued coin (at least a $50 trade)

I'd sell and put the $$ towards something better.

Mgarmy

In for a penny in for a pound, I have had success cracking out and resending to the other TPG. Most recent was two months ago. Without looking at it closely, can’t make the call but given the potential upside of a straight grade...send economy on your next multi coin submission of dimes

ECHOES

@joeykoins said:

@coinbuf said:
Cracking the coin and AT'ing the coin to attempt to hide the cleaning and dupe another collector by dumping your $5 find on him/her all while making a large profit is highly unethical in my book. However its not surprising that there are some who are fine with that type of fraudulent activity. Leave it in the holder and sell or hold, the chances are high that the buyer will crack it out and either sell it as problem free or AT it and then sell for major bucks as rainbow toned. But at least your conscience can be clear that that you didn't dupe and defraud anyone.

Lol. Since when is allowing a coin to tone, "naturally " called AT? I said naturally toned if you check my OP.

Purely out of curiosity, how long do you think it will take for this coin to ‘naturally tone’?

MFeld

@Downtown1974 said:
Joey, with the bad luck streak you’re on, you could build a box of twenty “swing and a miss” box.
All kidding aside, you’re probably still ahead of the game with that toned ASE you bought a while back. Some of those are selling for silly money.

It sounds as if you’re mistaking unrealistic hopes/expectations for bad luck.

OPA

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

Dump it ... and keep looking

Wahoo554

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Is this the one that you dipped before sending it in? If I’m recalling correctly, the lesson may be to be more hesitant about dipping in the future as if I’m recalling correctly, this coin looked more original prior to the dip.

FredF

Crack out and try to let it tone naturally before seeing what NGC has to say

It's not a controversial coin (except maybe in your mind, because you're unhappy with the grading results). It looks obviously cleaned and nothing will change that.

Sorry for the newbie question, and I'm not trying to troll the OP, but what are you looking at to see the cleaning? I'm only looking at the Trueview - the in-slab pictures don't seem to have great lighting.

I don't see any lines on the coin that I would expect from a wire-brush cleaning. I see the very dark tarnish outlining the E and R in Liberty on the obverse. Given that tarnish doesn't form that way in isolation, that would imply that the coin itself was much darker. So I could conclude that the coin was dipped. However, if a dip doesn't leave any really harsh marks, I thought dipping a 100-year-old coin was still market acceptable for straight grade, and then up to the buyer & seller to determine a fair price.

Looking closer, I see some streaking in the toning in the fields right above Liberty's nose, and some splotchy toning around the mintmark on the reverse. Again, maybe a below-average dip attempt?

Is that the deal - because the dip-job wasn't the best, it's coming back Genuine? If so, would a better dip allow it to straight grade?

MFeld

@FredF said:

It's not a controversial coin (except maybe in your mind, because you're unhappy with the grading results). It looks obviously cleaned and nothing will change that.

Sorry for the newbie question, and I'm not trying to troll the OP, but what are you looking at to see the cleaning? I'm only looking at the Trueview - the in-slab pictures don't seem to have great lighting.

I don't see any lines on the coin that I would expect from a wire-brush cleaning. I see the very dark tarnish outlining the E and R in Liberty on the obverse. Given that tarnish doesn't form that way in isolation, that would imply that the coin itself was much darker. So I could conclude that the coin was dipped. However, if a dip doesn't leave any really harsh marks, I thought dipping a 100-year-old coin was still market acceptable for straight grade, and then up to the buyer & seller to determine a fair price.

Looking closer, I see some streaking in the toning in the fields right above Liberty's nose, and some splotchy toning around the mintmark on the reverse. Again, maybe a below-average dip attempt?

Is that the deal - because the dip-job wasn't the best, it's coming back Genuine? If so, would a better dip allow it to straight grade?

Please, no need to apologize for a question - especially one like that. To me, the cleaning is most obvious on the reverse of the slab image. The appearance and sheen of that entire side of the coin are quite unnatural. And I’m not talking about just a dipping, either. I think if you compare that image to pictures of straight grade AU and Unc. PCGS Mercury dimes, you will see what I’m talking about.

Keep in mind, that cleaned coins don’t necessarily exhibit obvious hairlines, especially in images.

joeykoins

@ECHOES said:

@joeykoins said:

@coinbuf said:
Cracking the coin and AT'ing the coin to attempt to hide the cleaning and dupe another collector by dumping your $5 find on him/her all while making a large profit is highly unethical in my book. However its not surprising that there are some who are fine with that type of fraudulent activity. Leave it in the holder and sell or hold, the chances are high that the buyer will crack it out and either sell it as problem free or AT it and then sell for major bucks as rainbow toned. But at least your conscience can be clear that that you didn't dupe and defraud anyone.

Lol. Since when is allowing a coin to tone, "naturally " called AT? I said naturally toned if you check my OP.

Purely out of curiosity, how long do you think it will take for this coin to ‘naturally tone’?

Good question. Whenever?

FredF

Crack out and try to let it tone naturally before seeing what NGC has to say

To me, the cleaning is most obvious on the reverse of the slab image. The appearance and sheen of that entire side of the coin are quite unnatural.

Thanks @MFeld - I agree the look of the reverse pic in slab is odd. However, the obverse slab picture was dark in a way that had me thinking that it was a pic taken in a shadow instead of that being the actual appearance of the coin, so I similarly discounted the reverse picture as being questionable lighting.

Do you think the cleaning was in the form of a physical object, or chemicals? And am I correct that a dip on a 1920 dime would not, in and of itself, disqualify from a straight grade, that there had to have been something to make it market unacceptable?

coinbuf

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

@joeykoins said:

@coinbuf said:
Cracking the coin and AT'ing the coin to attempt to hide the cleaning and dupe another collector by dumping your $5 find on him/her all while making a large profit is highly unethical in my book. However its not surprising that there are some who are fine with that type of fraudulent activity. Leave it in the holder and sell or hold, the chances are high that the buyer will crack it out and either sell it as problem free or AT it and then sell for major bucks as rainbow toned. But at least your conscience can be clear that that you didn't dupe and defraud anyone.

Lol. Since when is allowing a coin to tone, "naturally " called AT? I said naturally toned if you check my OP.

Well please correct me if I am mistaken, however I get the impression that you are closer to 60 than you are 20. Given that it will take many years for this to tone "naturally" without accelerating the process with some combination of heat, humidity, and/or chemicals; and if my assumption is correct about your age then I don't see how you would be able to complete the process without some form of acceleration. And in my view that is AT, market acceptable or not. There is also the issue of intent, if you were to go this route then you would be intending to deceive by hiding the cleaning with accelerated tone. Of course this is not new, many have done this in the past and had no issue sleeping at night.

MFeld

@FredF said:

To me, the cleaning is most obvious on the reverse of the slab image. The appearance and sheen of that entire side of the coin are quite unnatural.

Thanks @MFeld - I agree the look of the reverse pic in slab is odd. However, the obverse slab picture was dark in a way that had me thinking that it was a pic taken in a shadow instead of that being the actual appearance of the coin, so I similarly discounted the reverse picture as being questionable lighting.

Do you think the cleaning was in the form of a physical object, or chemicals? And am I correct that a dip on a 1920 dime would not, in and of itself, disqualify from a straight grade, that there had to have been something to make it market unacceptable?

You’re most welcome. I couldn’t tell much of anything from the obverse of the slab picture. The obverse of the Trueview looks possibly/probably problematic, however.

My guess is that the cleaning was done by chemicals.

Correct - a dip, in and of itself, won’t usually prevent a coin from receiving a straight grade. There are countless straight-grade dipped coins.

mothra454

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

@mothra454 said:
Cuz I'm a problem coin...

Damn, only one LOL? Must not be a lot of AC/DC fans in this forum.

joeykoins

Yes! I decided to "trade" the Merc. Thank you all for joining me in my poll. I traded for, not one slab, but two. Both in NGC holders of different era's. Another Merc. 1937p,That's a ms 67. Plus, another NGC slab, a 1947s Washington quarter in a ms 66. With one more added bonus. The mint mark is a RPM, S/S. I figure both equaling at least $100! I think I'm immensely satisfied? Lol.

abcde12345

Huh, oh.
I see a future thread...
"Cracked and submitted 1937 dime and 1947-S quarter.
Came back corroded dime and scratched quarter. Now what do I do?"

airplanenut

@MFeld said:

@FredF said:

To me, the cleaning is most obvious on the reverse of the slab image. The appearance and sheen of that entire side of the coin are quite unnatural.

Thanks @MFeld - I agree the look of the reverse pic in slab is odd. However, the obverse slab picture was dark in a way that had me thinking that it was a pic taken in a shadow instead of that being the actual appearance of the coin, so I similarly discounted the reverse picture as being questionable lighting.

Do you think the cleaning was in the form of a physical object, or chemicals? And am I correct that a dip on a 1920 dime would not, in and of itself, disqualify from a straight grade, that there had to have been something to make it market unacceptable?

You’re most welcome. I couldn’t tell much of anything from the obverse of the slab picture. The obverse of the Trueview looks possibly/probably problematic, however.

My guess is that the cleaning was done by chemicals.

Correct - a dip, in and of itself, won’t usually prevent a coin from receiving a straight grade. There are countless straight-grade dipped coins.

I'd add that the only dirt on the coin is right up against the devices--areas where a cloth can't easily reach; the rest of the coin gets cleaned, but those areas stay dirty.

joeykoins

On second thought, just noticed. Even without the value of the RPM, both coins are worth at least $140. If I cross the Quarter and the RPM coin stays a 66, PCGS has it priced at $275.

IkesT

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

Nice! Hard to see from the photo - is the RPM the FS-501? There is more than one RPM variety for 1947-S quarters.

joeykoins

Thanks. I'll have to check out later with my scope. Fingers crossed for the one you posted.

airplanenut

@joeykoins said:
On second thought, just noticed. Even without the value of the RPM, both coins are worth at least $140. If I cross the Quarter and the RPM coin stays a 66, PCGS has it priced at $275.

And if you look at the price history on eBay, a PCGS MS66 FS-502 went for around half of the PCGS price guide, and an NGC MS67 FS-501 went for $175, which would lead me to believe the PCGS price guide is a tad bit inflated. So, if you pay to send the coin in AND the coin crosses, most likely all you've done is lost money.

FS_Jeff

Just keep, as is, in the PCGS holder. Then continue to tell it's story.

A lot of great suggestions on this thread. I was one who voted for keep, but that WQ looks like it has a lot of luster and it is more silver. Probably a better investment - hard to tell from your picture if it an RPM though.

Coincidentally, I just received my TrueViews for a Merc that I thought was at least MS-62 and had a good shot for FSB. Came back as "Cleaned" AU details. This thread has made me rethink my options regarding this coin - so thank you all! I think I am going to keep it and enjoy the error...

joeykoins

@FS_Jeff said:
A lot of great suggestions on this thread. I was one who voted for keep, but that WQ looks like it has a lot of luster and it is more silver. Probably a better investment - hard to tell from your picture if it an RPM though.

Coincidentally, I just received my TrueViews for a Merc that I thought was at least MS-62 and had a good shot for FSB. Came back as "Cleaned" AU details. This thread has made me rethink my options regarding this coin - so thank you all! I think I am going to keep it and enjoy the error...

Yep, I certainly learned something from this. Sorry about your outcome.

david3142

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

I don’t know what price guide you’re using but looking at auction results I’d guess that dime is worth about $60 and the quarter about $40. Your $100 guess was reasonable and I think these two are preferable to the other dime. Well done! Do not under any circumstances bother to cross them.

joeykoins

@david3142 said:
I don’t know what price guide you’re using but looking at auction results I’d guess that dime is worth about $60 and the quarter about $40. Your $100 guess was reasonable and I think these two are preferable to the other dime. Well done! Do not under any circumstances bother to cross them.

Thanks. If I were to cross, it would only be the Quarter, only because of the RPM.

david3142

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

@joeykoins said:

@david3142 said:
I don’t know what price guide you’re using but looking at auction results I’d guess that dime is worth about $60 and the quarter about $40. Your $100 guess was reasonable and I think these two are preferable to the other dime. Well done! Do not under any circumstances bother to cross them.

Thanks. If I were to cross, it would only be the Quarter, only because of the RPM.

Still not worth the cost.

joeykoins

@david3142 said:

@joeykoins said:

@david3142 said:
I don’t know what price guide you’re using but looking at auction results I’d guess that dime is worth about $60 and the quarter about $40. Your $100 guess was reasonable and I think these two are preferable to the other dime. Well done! Do not under any circumstances bother to cross them.

Thanks. If I were to cross, it would only be the Quarter, only because of the RPM.

Still not worth the cost.

Even if it would stay a ms 66 RPM? $275?
Also, remember. The coin (quarter) didn't cost me any cash.

david3142

Sell for a fair price (at least for $50)

@joeykoins said:

@david3142 said:

@joeykoins said:

@david3142 said:
I don’t know what price guide you’re using but looking at auction results I’d guess that dime is worth about $60 and the quarter about $40. Your $100 guess was reasonable and I think these two are preferable to the other dime. Well done! Do not under any circumstances bother to cross them.

Thanks. If I were to cross, it would only be the Quarter, only because of the RPM.

Still not worth the cost.

Even if it would stay a ms 66 RPM? $275?
Also, remember. The coin (quarter) didn't cost me any cash.

1) The last couple of sales were around $110. Use realized auction prices, not the price guide.
2) it doesn’t matter what it cost (or if it was trade or cash). Read up on the “Sunk Cost Fallacy”.
3) It may not cross and it might not be the variety you think it is.